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Voice of the First Men

How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

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Here's how it all went down (except for the origin of the Others, which I'm still writing up lol):

 

  1. A winter that lasts a generation comes, the people name it "the Long Night"
  2. In that darkness the Others came for the first time
  3. The Others sweep over the many kingdoms (and walls) of the First Men (with their ice spiders :devil:)
  4. The armies of men lost the North, including what is now Winterfell...
  5. A greenseer reached out to a man named Brandon from the roots of the heart tree, located in what has since become Winterfell's godswood...
  6. A man named Brandon called together many "watchers" from many walls, and consolidated them into a brotherhood named "the Night's Watch"
  7. This man set out into the frozen dead lands, with his fellow 12 Lords Commander, who were all destroyed, along with his horse, dog, and sword
  8. He was desperate, like a direwolf running across an ice-white field, when the cotf rescued him...
  9. There, the place where it will soon be said that The Winter, fell, he learned ancient magics from the greenseer
  10. When he returned to the Night's Watch, the Others could not stand against him
  11. He won back some of the frozen dead lands (the North)
  12. He set about building a great wall of ice along the northern boundary of the lands he saved (to protect the godswood of his mentor)
  13. This man named Brandon became known as "the Builder"
  14. By day, he became known as the (last) Hero, and the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
  15. One night, as he was building, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like bright glowing stars
  16. Fearless, he took her and gave her his seed, and his soul as well
  17. Brandon develops split personalities, and becomes a double agent...
  18. By day: he was a man like any other, a father to his trueborn children, a husband to his wife, a hero of the First Men, and a leader of his sworn brothers (note the vow repeated at the Black Gate does not include the father no children admonition)
  19. By night: he was a man unlike any other, he named himself king and his pale woman queen, made sacrifices to the Others, and bound his sworn brothers with sorcery
  20. It was discovered he had been making sacrifices to the Others (most likely in secret, through the Black Gate)
  21. A sworn brother disarmed this Long Night's King of Winter, freed his brothers from bondage, and claimed his pale, milkglass sword, and it became known as Dawn [Dawn of the Day(ne)]
  22. Exiled, Night's King retreated with the Others and the Long Night came to an end.
  23. The sworn brother that cast him down became known as he who ended the long night, he who "brought the dawn," and the "sword of the morning."
  24. The descendants of Brandon the Builder say that Winter is Coming, and name their new ancestral sword Ice in remembrance of the shame of their House, the origin of their House, or, as a reminder that their House will return to power with the coming winter.

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

 

UPDATE:

  1. There has not been a Sword of the Morning for seventeen conspicuous years.
  2. We have a bastard of questionable parentage who is now seventeen.
  3. Clearly, Jon is at least half Stark. (see weirwood-colored direwolf)
  4. Only a Dayne can wield Dawn.
  5. Jon is half Stark, half Dayne. (Either by Arthur+Lyanna, or Eddard+Ashara)

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My hat is off to you, Voice of the First Men,  for putting so much thought into this complicated tangle of mysteries.  While I enjoyed reading the OP I'm dubious as to the mysteries being unraveled at all with the lack of information available to any of us.  

Lots of excitement about the Sword of the Morning lately.  While researching for a similarly themed topic reply I happened upon a quote from AWOIAF that named a King V. Dayne as Sword of the Evening.  No kidding.  Only Daynes I'm even aware of in the story are Allyria, Edric and Gerold Dark Star Dayne.   Information about these folks is scant.  

I don't know, lots of people seem to think BtB was THL and NK, but when would he find time between building The Wall, Winterfell, the Hightower and Storm's End?  These were major projects, not DIY over the weekend stuff.  He had to sleep some time, right?

Could Dawn have been TLH's sword?  Sure, why not.   But how would he happen upon it?   The Dayne's do not loan it out.   Ever.  To anyone. It is a Dayne sword.  AWOIAF makes a point of mentioning this.   It's not a stretch to make the jump to only  the TSOM can wield Dawn and only a Dayne can be TSOM. In support of your ideas,  Jon will not wield it unless he is a Dayne.   Could TLH have been a Dayne?  Sure, why not.  He could not have been a Stark using Dawn.   This may explain Ned's push to get the sword back to Starfall following Aurthur's death at TOJ.   Ned knows the backstory and understands the Daynes must keep Dawn.  Sword of The Evening may have an entirely different set of rules attached, but that's doubtful.   Wonder what the difference between SOM and SOE really is?

As an alternate, not nearly as well thought out possibility, I submit to you that perhaps each family has some part to play in the War For Dawn.   Perhaps the Daynes are the only ones who can smote The Head Other.   Perhaps the Starks are gate keepers and overseers of the pact.  Perhaps the 12 companions must be compiled of members of the same noble families the original companions were from.  Perhaps the Targs are only equalizers against the armies of undead wights.  Maybe they all had to work together during the 1st Long Night In order to end it.

It was still a fun read.

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5 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Here's how it all went down (except for the origin of the Others, which I'm still writing up lol):

 

  1. A winter that lasts a generation comes, the people name it "the Long Night"
  2. In that darkness the Others came for the first time
  3. The Others sweep over the many kingdoms (and walls) of the First Men (with their ice spiders :devil:)
  4. The armies of men lost the North, including what is now Winterfell...
  5. A greenseer reached out to a man named Brandon from the roots of the heart tree, located in what has since become Winterfell's godswood...
  6. A man named Brandon called together many "watchers" from many walls, and consolidated them into a brotherhood named "the Night's Watch"
  7. This man set out into the frozen dead lands, with his fellow 12 Lords Commander, who were all destroyed, along with his horse, dog, and sword
  8. He was desperate, like a direwolf running across an ice-white field, when the cotf rescued him...
  9. There, the place where it will soon be said that The Winter, fell, he learned ancient magics from the greenseer
  10. When he returned to the Night's Watch, the Others could not stand against him
  11. He won back some of the frozen dead lands (the North)
  12. He set about building a great wall of ice along the northern boundary of the lands he saved (to protect the godswood of his mentor)
  13. This man named Brandon became known as "the Builder"
  14. By day, he became known as the (last) Hero, and the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
  15. One night, as he was building, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like bright glowing stars
  16. Fearless, he took her and gave her his seed, and his soul as well
  17. Brandon develops split personalities, and becomes a double agent...
  18. By day: he was a man like any other, a father to his trueborn children, a husband to his wife, a hero of the First Men, and a leader of his sworn brothers (note the vow repeated at the Black Gate does not include the father no children admonition)
  19. By night: he was a man unlike any other, he named himself king and his pale woman queen, made sacrifices to the Others, and bound his sworn brothers with sorcery
  20. It was discovered he had been making sacrifices to the Others (most likely in secret, through the Black Gate)
  21. A sworn brother disarmed this Long Night's King of Winter, freed his brothers from bondage, and claimed his pale, milkglass sword, and it became known as Dawn [Dawn of the Day(ne)]
  22. Exiled, Night's King retreated with the Others and the Long Night came to an end.
  23. The sworn brother that cast him down became known as he who ended the long night, he who "brought the dawn," and the "sword of the morning."
  24. The descendants of Brandon the Builder say that Winter is Coming, and name their new ancestral sword Ice in remembrance of the shame of their House, the origin of their House, or, as a reminder that their House will return to power with the coming winter.

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

 

UPDATE:

  1. There has not been a Sword of the Morning for seventeen conspicuous years.
  2. We have a bastard of questionable parentage who is now seventeen.
  3. Clearly, Jon is at least half Stark. (see weirwood-colored direwolf)
  4. Only a Dayne can wield Dawn. 
  5. Jon is half Stark, half Dayne. (Either by Arthur+Lyanna, or Eddard+Ashara)

There are many, many assumptions conflating a number of tales that are 6 to 8 thousand years old. How would his 12 companions be lord commanders if he hasn't built the wall that the watch was set up to guard yet? Also, Ice was a blade from the age of Heroes, Are you saying the Age of heroes was actually After  the long night? If so, how do you figure that?  The split personality thing? Out of curiousity, what led you to come up with that bit of fan fic? 
Now, I have a totally unsubstantiated idea that Winterfell, Dawn and the runic bronze armor of the Royces were the possessions of the last hero, and spread out through his descendents. The Royces words are "We remember."   now we only need  the Dayne words and we have "Winter is Coming, We Remember and something that the author said will give away the story
Also, Ned was an extremely honorable man, to the point that Bob made fun of him for it. That alone explains why he returned it to starfall. Then there is the possible romance with Ashara and the Huge respect he had for Arthur. Even if he somehow knew that Dawn was the age of heroes era Ice, the sword had been in the hands of the Daynes for thousands of years to the point that their seat, sigil and the origin story of the sword are synonymous. If Dawn was originally a possession of the starks, why has there not been a tale of a stark king trying to reclaim it?  
As for updates, Jon is probably not a dayne at all. He has the Stark look, and the only reason for him to be a Dayne would be so he could be given Dawn by the lord of Starfall. Now, he is thousands of miles away literally the northernmost point in the kingdoms of men, with a magical sword of his own, and dawn is at the southernmost point of the kingdoms of men, and has been locked away for almost two decades. why and how would he get it? 
It still makes far more sense that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He would literally be the song of Ice and Fire, as opposed to "the song of Ice and rock" or "the song of ice and meteors" or "the song of ice and falling stars." 
 

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This is an interesting theory, though I don't know that I'd a hundred percent buy into it, but it is interesting and well thought out. I'm curious though, why does the theory that Dawn was used to get rid of NK and end the Long Night (or even just one of them) equate to Dawn being Ice? And what Ned's Ice be if that were the case? 

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The senario is certainly plausible, though I'm not sure of BtB's role. A question I've long pondered is that of the 13 Lord Commanders. It seems strange to have 13 Lord Commanders all at once but there's probably more to this than meets the eye. I suspect more about them can be gleaned from the Thirteen of Qarth, though I'm yet to figure out why. The Thirteen are traders of course; presumably each heads and controls some particular portion of the trading goals of their guild. They also happen to have about a thousand ships between them. Now, I think the theme of trading is somehow important. Old records at the NW indicate that Nightswatchmen traded with the wildlings. Like the Dothraki, the wildlings don't really have any use for money, so presumably, trading involved an exchange of gifts, In the wider sense, exchanging gifts brings to mind the idea of sacrificing to the Others - gifting them in return for something else - as we see with Craster, he receives the gift of being left in peace in return. Incidentally, Haggon also teaches Varamyr how to trade with the wildlings.

When Dany enters Qarth for the first time, she notices the walls :

Quote

Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall’s scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another?
The outer gates were banded with copper, the middle with iron; the innermost were studded with golden eyes

The scenes on the walls seem relevant. By assoication with the CotF, the Lengi etc, the walls studded with golden eyes stand out the most. So there's something there, still elusive, but worth looking into. 

 

I love the wordplay you point out and tend to think you're right about that. Recall also that we have an existing Darkstar in the form of Gerold Dayne. The last part of Bran's weirwood vision, where he views the white-haired woman sacrificing a man to the weirwood is also a clue to the connection between the houses Stark and Dayne, imo. Though we don't have a detailed description of the woman, I doubt age accounts for her white hair and that it's meant as a hint to the ancestry of the Starks. 

The idea of a double-agent, a mole, is also present in the narrative. I discussed this somewhere in a thread I can no longer find but to sum up, it involves the idea that both Jon and Ser Waymar are marked as moles, or double-agents. They are the only ones who wear moleskin gloves. Of course, skinchanging also implies the role of a double-agent so perhaps this is meant to highlight their status as wargs, but we know that, at least of Jon so I would say that moleskin could be a direct reference to the NK role as a man like any other by day and a man unlike any other by night. 

I'm also hooked on the notion that Winterfell is indeed the place where winter fell. We actually see this in ADWD, where winter seems to be emanating from Winterfell itself, complete with 'snowmen' on the walls :devil: - so there's support for that too. 

The only thing I really can't agree with is Jon's parentage, but then I don't subscribe to R+L=J either. I think there's a less obvious twist to his parentage. 

So, just some ideas to add to your theory. Good thoughts in an easily digestible package :)

What happend to your account? Did you lose it as a result of the change in forum-software?

 

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22 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

First up--hurray for bringing this back! :commie:

I'm not sure if you want to focus on here or TLH--I'm heading over there in a bit. But I'll post this here just in case--or perhaps just to annoy you.

So--would Ned need to know/believe this backstory for the symbolism to work? He seems to dismiss a lot of Nan's stories as "stories." Messes up on the direwolves with killing Lady, etc. But feeling guilt over Arthur--and the subsequent horror--that would be enough to symbolize the guilt, no? And fit in with the symbolism of the Bael Tale--the battle was a kinslaying, resulting in the return of an artifact. 

Also--have you seen Anath's take on Allyria's being an echo of the Night's Queen here? She also talks about it a bit earlier in the thread. Might fit well with your ideas.

 

 

22 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

A sworn brother disarmed this Long Night's King of Winter, freed his brothers from bondage, and claimed his pale, milkglass sword, and it became known as Dawn [Dawn of the Day(ne)]

This part I'm still iffy on. I keep thinking that we are getting an echo of how Dawn is bestowed in Game--where Cat's heard that Ned returned the sword to Ashara--not to the Daynes or to the Lord of Starfall, but to Ashara. Cersei seems to think something similar. 

And then the story of Galladon of Morne, knight of Tarth and Evenfall, which is ruled by the Evenstar --clear echoe of Galahad and Starfall and the Daynes.

In that tale (as Brienne tells it) the sword is bestowed from worthiness. BUT Galladon doesn't wield it against an uneven foe. For honor--the point is honor, she insists.

So, any chance that sword wasn't originally an Other sword, but got used wrongly/dishonorably by the Night's King? Thus becoming like the Others' swords?

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22 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Here's how it all went down (except for the origin of the Others, which I'm still writing up lol):

 

  1. A winter that lasts a generation comes, the people name it "the Long Night"
  2. In that darkness the Others came for the first time
  3. The Others sweep over the many kingdoms (and walls) of the First Men (with their ice spiders :devil:)
  4. The armies of men lost the North, including what is now Winterfell...
  5. A greenseer reached out to a man named Brandon from the roots of the heart tree, located in what has since become Winterfell's godswood...
  6. A man named Brandon called together many "watchers" from many walls, and consolidated them into a brotherhood named "the Night's Watch"
  7. This man set out into the frozen dead lands, with his fellow 12 Lords Commander, who were all destroyed, along with his horse, dog, and sword
  8. He was desperate, like a direwolf running across an ice-white field, when the cotf rescued him...
  9. There, the place where it will soon be said that The Winter, fell, he learned ancient magics from the greenseer
  10. When he returned to the Night's Watch, the Others could not stand against him
  11. He won back some of the frozen dead lands (the North)
  12. He set about building a great wall of ice along the northern boundary of the lands he saved (to protect the godswood of his mentor)
  13. This man named Brandon became known as "the Builder"
  14. By day, he became known as the (last) Hero, and the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
  15. One night, as he was building, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like bright glowing stars
  16. Fearless, he took her and gave her his seed, and his soul as well
  17. Brandon develops split personalities, and becomes a double agent...
  18. By day: he was a man like any other, a father to his trueborn children, a husband to his wife, a hero of the First Men, and a leader of his sworn brothers (note the vow repeated at the Black Gate does not include the father no children admonition)
  19. By night: he was a man unlike any other, he named himself king and his pale woman queen, made sacrifices to the Others, and bound his sworn brothers with sorcery
  20. It was discovered he had been making sacrifices to the Others (most likely in secret, through the Black Gate)
  21. A sworn brother disarmed this Long Night's King of Winter, freed his brothers from bondage, and claimed his pale, milkglass sword, and it became known as Dawn [Dawn of the Day(ne)]
  22. Exiled, Night's King retreated with the Others and the Long Night came to an end.
  23. The sworn brother that cast him down became known as he who ended the long night, he who "brought the dawn," and the "sword of the morning."
  24. The descendants of Brandon the Builder say that Winter is Coming, and name their new ancestral sword Ice in remembrance of the shame of their House, the origin of their House, or, as a reminder that their House will return to power with the coming winter.

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

 

UPDATE:

  1. There has not been a Sword of the Morning for seventeen conspicuous years.
  2. We have a bastard of questionable parentage who is now seventeen.
  3. Clearly, Jon is at least half Stark. (see weirwood-colored direwolf)
  4. Only a Dayne can wield Dawn.
  5. Jon is half Stark, half Dayne. (Either by Arthur+Lyanna, or Eddard+Ashara)

An enjoyable read as always. Regarding your conclusion: My feeling is that there is a connection between Arthur and Jon, but it is not a parent-child connection, nor do I think that a parent - child connection between them is necessary. According to your theory, Dawn is the original Ice, that is originally a Stark sword. So what if it was also established before the Dawn of Time (or maybe it wasn't but happens anyway) that a Stark may win the sword back for House Stark and become the Sword of the Morning if he defeats the Others / the Night King and ends another Long Night with valor and self-sacrifice? Eddard Stark returned the sword to Starfall, which was the honourable thing to do among other things because it wasn't yet time for the Starks to reclaim it (Ned didn't have to know that, by the way). So what if Jon Snow becomes the Stark who wins back the true ancestral sword of his family?

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

First up--hurray for bringing this back! :commie:

I'm not sure if you want to focus on here or TLH--I'm heading over there in a bit. But I'll post this here just in case--or perhaps just to annoy you.

So--would Ned need to know/believe this backstory for the symbolism to work? He seems to dismiss a lot of Nan's stories as "stories." Messes up on the direwolves with killing Lady, etc. But feeling guilt over Arthur--and the subsequent horror--that would be enough to symbolize the guilt, no? And fit in with the symbolism of the Bael Tale--the battle was a kinslaying, resulting in the return of an artifact. 

Also--have you seen Anath's take on Allyria's being an echo of the Night's Queen here? She also talks about it a bit earlier in the thread. Might fit well with your ideas.

 

 

Actually, I don't think very many of the characters know much of the background. There are a very few who have some partial background knowledge and these seem to be concentrated within the schorlarly community - charcters like Marvin or Aemon. I think George has intentionally written the story that way so that everything goes with the flow. At the same time, we as readers recognize there's more to it than meets the eye. So, no, I don't think Ned needs to know anything at all. He knows a few things, about iron swords locking in the spirits of the kings in the crypt for instance. There are lots of open hints suggesting information has been lost to history. The Royces and their words - We Remember, the fact that the NW has 'forgotten' their purpose and so on. We're also introduced to a more enlightend medeival world - the highborn enjoy a certain level of education, there's still superstition of course but many dismiss those tales - snarks and grumpkins... Phrases like 'the Others take you' are used with as much ease as 'go to hell', nowadays (Incidentally, that's why Waymar Royce's moleskin gloves are important - they remember - he was sent there for a purpose - most likely for the same reason Jon is there, only he didn't have the right bloodline).

This brings me to Ned's killing Lady - it may appear to us that he messed up, he thinks so himself. This is an example of the 'flow' of the story I mention above. He didn't mess up - actually, I suspect killing lady was necessary. I think she was the sacrifice that woke Bran. As a replacement, Sansa is given 'dogs' to protect her (ironically, just as King Robert suggests to Ned - get her a dog). And the author does this quite cleverly - he shows that dogs like her (the dog at LF's abode), Sandor Clegane protects her, saves her from the fate Lolly's suffered and so on. My guess is she'll have a 'dog' at the Gates of the Moon as well. My tip is Shadrich, the Mad Mouse. Sansa didn't really need Lady but Bran did and it's all cleverly woven into the narrative. 

Allyria as an echo of the NQ is a really good catch on Anath's part. I hadn't noticed that. But it actually confirms certain ideas I have regarding Jon and Dany's parentage. Nice. Many see the Bard's tale as confirmation of the Lyanna/Rhaegar scenario but I'm inclined to focus more on the fact that they hide in the crypts and what that implies. Bael essentially turns the Stark daughter into a Night's Queen, living amongst corpses for a year. And Lyanna ends up there as well. But anyway. 

The sword - I like @Julia H.'s take on the sword, sounds plausible. I must admit to not really looking at the sword myself - I'm more into the magic behind the scenes and have posted several essays dealing with the subject on my blog. However,  you might find support for your ideas in some of Jon's chapters - the training scenes at Castle Black crossed my mind immediately after reading that part of your post. The theme of disarming for instance.. might find something there.   

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this is like that reddit post that says what it'd be like if every fan theory were correct, except if it were if all historical assumptions about the first men worked most conveniently

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On 2/6/2016 at 1:18 PM, Curled Finger said:

My hat is off to you, Voice of the First Men,  for putting so much thought into this complicated tangle of mysteries.  While I enjoyed reading the OP I'm dubious as to the mysteries being unraveled at all with the lack of information available to any of us.  

Thanks :cheers:

Quote

Lots of excitement about the Sword of the Morning lately.  While researching for a similarly themed topic reply I happened upon a quote from AWOIAF that named a King V. Dayne as Sword of the Evening.  No kidding.  Only Daynes I'm even aware of in the story are Allyria, Edric and Gerold Dark Star Dayne.   Information about these folks is scant.  

I know I look like a noob, but I'm not. For some reason my post history is gone. It should be like 3000-something. No big whoop though. I don't mind being young again. Anyhoo, just wanted to mention that much of the SotM excitement has been generated by me, and fellow Heretics. And, while Dayne info seems scant at first, upon subsequent rereads, they seem truly pivotal. No other house is respected by both House Stark and House Targaryen. House Dayne are the keepers of Dawn, Jon Snow's milkbrother Ned, a wetnurse named Wylla, a woman named Ashara, a man named Arthur, a Palestone Tower... and likely the place of Lyanna died, but that's another discussion.

Quote

I don't know, lots of people seem to think BtB was THL and NK, but when would he find time between building The Wall, Winterfell, the Hightower and Storm's End?  These were major projects, not DIY over the weekend stuff.  He had to sleep some time, right?

Nope. No sleep. In fact, if you read my response to Doran below, you will see he had far bigger things to do at night.

Quote

Could Dawn have been TLH's sword?  Sure, why not.   But how would he happen upon it?   The Dayne's do not loan it out.   Ever.  To anyone. It is a Dayne sword. 

I think you've misunderstood my theory. How do you think the Dayne's got Dawn? It just so happens they got it around the same time as the rise/downfall of the Night's King... and... unsurprisingly... the End of The Long Night.

Quote

 AWOIAF makes a point of mentioning this.   It's not a stretch to make the jump to only  the TSOM can wield Dawn and only a Dayne can be TSOM. In support of your ideas,  Jon will not wield it unless he is a Dayne.   Could TLH have been a Dayne?  Sure, why not.  He could not have been a Stark using Dawn.  

Indeed. But you are acting as if Dawn and House Dayne existed prior to the Last Hero and Night's King. The text does not bear such a suggestion.

Quote

This may explain Ned's push to get the sword back to Starfall following Aurthur's death at TOJ.   Ned knows the backstory and understands the Daynes must keep Dawn.  Sword of The Evening may have an entirely different set of rules attached, but that's doubtful.   Wonder what the difference between SOM and SOE really is?

Indeed. But we don't even know if the Sword of the Evening wields Dawn.

I would point out that the mere fact that House Dayne has known Swords of the Morning and Swords of the Evening means it is a House accustomed with Light and Dark Warriors - see the story of Night's King.

Quote

As an alternate, not nearly as well thought out possibility, I submit to you that perhaps each family has some part to play in the War For Dawn.  

I have submitted the same proposal. I am the guy who coined the idea that the reason why the great families/houses covet Valyrian Steel, is that it is the fabled dragonsteel of the Annals. And, that it was valued by lord protectors and wardens of territories when they actually had to protect and ward their bannermen and vassals from the Others. Watcher on the walls.

Quote

Perhaps the Daynes are the only ones who can smote The Head Other.   Perhaps the Starks are gate keepers and overseers of the pact.  Perhaps the 12 companions must be compiled of members of the same noble families the original companions were from.  Perhaps the Targs are only equalizers against the armies of undead wights.  Maybe they all had to work together during the 1st Long Night In order to end it.

It was still a fun read.

I agree very much with the bold, and disagree very much with the Targs being equalizers. They are not. Targs are but another threat to the realm, not the saviors of it.

21 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

There are many, many assumptions conflating a number of tales that are 6 to 8 thousand years old. How would his 12 companions be lord commanders if he hasn't built the wall that the watch was set up to guard yet?

Forgive me an almost-lazy parry...but this an easy one.

The Night's Watch predates the Wall.

Quote

Also, Ice was a blade from the age of Heroes, Are you saying the Age of heroes was actually After  the long night? If so, how do you figure that?  

I'm saying the Long Night began in the Age of Heroes. Thus, the reason they had to become heroes.

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The split personality thing? Out of curiousity, what led you to come up with that bit of fan fic? 

 

As you too are mourning the loss of the coach that was promised in San Francisco, I will cut you some slack Dorian.

Re: Split personality disorder, it does sound rather fan ficky, but isn't exactly unsupported by canon. What do I mean by that? Well, we have GRRM's fondness of hearts in conflict with themselves. We have Arya becoming Squab and Arry, No one, Cat of the Canals, the blind girl, the ugly girl, and now, Mercy. We also have Theon (Durden?) going through his transformation as "The Prince of Winterfell" then "The Ghost of Winterfell" and the "Turncloak"... not to mention his persona being split apart, then reforged, then split apart again, and reforged again as he becomes Ned Stark's Ward (carrying Ned's version of Ice in Bran I, btw...), then reclaiming his mantle as Balon's Son, then becoming Reek, then becoming Theon Greyjoy at Deepwood Motte, then becoming Ramsay's Reek once more....then coming full circle and re-emerging as Theon, ward of Eddard Stark to rescue Jeyne Poole.

I mean to suggest that such a transformation has been hinted at for the Night's King as well. Because, well, the text tells us it happened:

Bran IV ASOS:

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As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Does this not sound like a transformation of a man who knew no fear (and therefore, by Ned's definition, was never brave)? If you give a corpse woman your soul, might that affect your personality a bit?

The tale continues:

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He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Considering he was once leading his men in a natural way, and then chose to lead them with sorcery, I'd say this too hints that he had a change of heart...

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"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

Why all the past tense Old Nan? Did he change Houses?

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No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

This one brings it home, Doran.

He was only a man by light of day. Not an Other. Not a white walker. Not a wight. A man.

But... the night was his to rule. And that Night was Long.
 
21 hours ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

This is an interesting theory, though I don't know that I'd a hundred percent buy into it, but it is interesting and well thought out. I'm curious though, why does the theory that Dawn was used to get rid of NK and end the Long Night (or even just one of them) equate to Dawn being Ice? And what Ned's Ice be if that were the case? 

We know that Ned's sword is not the Original Ice. Read the following passage carefully:

Cat I AGOT:

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"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Thus, the original Ice was lost in the Age of Heroes. Ned carries a namesake of that blade that is made of dark Valyrian Steel. I think the name "Ice" would be more fitting for a milkier blade.

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He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

Now, who have we seen in the story with a sword like that? ;)

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Now, I have a totally unsubstantiated idea that Winterfell, Dawn and the runic bronze armor of the Royces were the possessions of the last hero, and spread out through his descendents. The Royces words are "We remember."   now we only need  the Dayne words and we have "Winter is Coming, We Remember and something that the author said will give away the story

Very cool idea. I like it.

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Also, Ned was an extremely honorable man, to the point that Bob made fun of him for it. That alone explains why he returned it to starfall. Then there is the possible romance with Ashara and the Huge respect he had for Arthur. Even if he somehow knew that Dawn was the age of heroes era Ice, the sword had been in the hands of the Daynes for thousands of years to the point that their seat, sigil and the origin story of the sword are synonymous. If Dawn was originally a possession of the starks, why has there not been a tale of a stark king trying to reclaim it?

"Winter is Coming" ...that is your missing tale, my friend. The Starks know, or knew, at least, that Winter has a face, eyes like stars, and once had a sword of Ice. Not coincidentally, they agree it should be kept as far south as possible in the hands of House Dayne.

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As for updates, Jon is probably not a dayne at all. He has the Stark look, and the only reason for him to be a Dayne would be so he could be given Dawn by the lord of Starfall. Now, he is thousands of miles away literally the northernmost point in the kingdoms of men, with a magical sword of his own, and dawn is at the southernmost point of the kingdoms of men, and has been locked away for almost two decades. why and how would he get it? 

He has Jorah Mormont's sword, and he knows it. He feels it. It feels wrong in his hand. He dreams of another. His sword hand is always opening and closing. He wants his father's sword, not Longclaw.

As far as the why goes, that should be easy to see. Jon is at the brink of the Long Night 2.0.

How does one end a night? Dawn.

As far as the how, there's no tellin. It's a fantasy series. We'll have to wait and see.

If I am allowed to speculate, I would like to see Arya give him a sword from his father's castle (Starfall), the same way he gave Arya Needle, from her father's forge.

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It still makes far more sense that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He would literally be the song of Ice and Fire, as opposed to "the song of Ice and rock" or "the song of ice and meteors" or "the song of ice and falling stars."

Well, Dorne is the province with red sands, red mountains, red wine, and sigils that bear Suns (see House Martell ;) ) ... not Valyria. There's Fire, and then there's dracaerys. They are two different things. Jon is the scion of Westeros (the weirwood colored wolf proves it), not Old Valyria.

A white direwolf, with eyes like a weirwood's eyes. Snow and Blood. Ice and Fire. No dragon...

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22 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

There are many, many assumptions conflating a number of tales that are 6 to 8 thousand years old. How would his 12 companions be lord commanders if he hasn't built the wall that the watch was set up to guard yet? Also, Ice was a blade from the age of Heroes, Are you saying the Age of heroes was actually After  the long night? If so, how do you figure that?  The split personality thing? Out of curiousity, what led you to come up with that bit of fan fic? 
Now, I have a totally unsubstantiated idea that Winterfell, Dawn and the runic bronze armor of the Royces were the possessions of the last hero, and spread out through his descendents. The Royces words are "We remember."   now we only need  the Dayne words and we have "Winter is Coming, We Remember and something that the author said will give away the story
Also, Ned was an extremely honorable man, to the point that Bob made fun of him for it. That alone explains why he returned it to starfall. Then there is the possible romance with Ashara and the Huge respect he had for Arthur. Even if he somehow knew that Dawn was the age of heroes era Ice, the sword had been in the hands of the Daynes for thousands of years to the point that their seat, sigil and the origin story of the sword are synonymous. If Dawn was originally a possession of the starks, why has there not been a tale of a stark king trying to reclaim it?  
As for updates, Jon is probably not a dayne at all. He has the Stark look, and the only reason for him to be a Dayne would be so he could be given Dawn by the lord of Starfall. Now, he is thousands of miles away literally the northernmost point in the kingdoms of men, with a magical sword of his own, and dawn is at the southernmost point of the kingdoms of men, and has been locked away for almost two decades. why and how would he get it? 
It still makes far more sense that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He would literally be the song of Ice and Fire, as opposed to "the song of Ice and rock" or "the song of ice and meteors" or "the song of ice and falling stars." 
 

This forum needs a like button. Great post as always, Doran.

Solid read though, TS. Thanks for posting.

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56 minutes ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

this is like that reddit post that says what it'd be like if every fan theory were correct, except if it were if all historical assumptions about the first men worked most conveniently

I'm not familiar with it, but must admit I am quite the Old Nan loyalist. She's the most accurate historian we have thus far for northern events. The maesters have proven quite inept on that front.

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7 hours ago, Evolett said:

The only thing I really can't agree with is Jon's parentage, but then I don't subscribe to R+L=J either. I think there's a less obvious twist to his parentage. 

Less obvious? I think Jon being Stark+Dayne is fairly under the radar... well... it used to be... LOL

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

So, just some ideas to add to your theory. Good thoughts in an easily digestible package :)

Many thanks!

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

What happend to your account? Did you lose it as a result of the change in forum-software?

No idea. I logged in quite normally, but my post count was reset to zero. I should let @WeaselPie know in case he's tried to PM me. I heard through the grapevine that he had, but have no mail in my inbox... which sucks, because I had a few fun debates going on with @LmL and @j star before the "upgrade". LOL

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15 minutes ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Less obvious? I think Jon being Stark+Dayne is fairly under the radar... well... it used to be... LOL

Many thanks!

No idea. I logged in quite normally, but my post count was reset to zero. I should let @WeaselPie know in case he's tried to PM me. I heard through the grapevine that he had, but have no mail in my inbox... which sucks, because I had a few fun debates going on with @LmL and @j star before the "upgrade". LOL

I've saved all of those convos, tons of good stuff in there back when you used to read my essays :crying: :dunce: :frown5:

 

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5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

An enjoyable read as always. Regarding your conclusion: My feeling is that there is a connection between Arthur and Jon, but it is not a parent-child connection, nor do I think that a parent - child connection between them is necessary. According to your theory, Dawn is the original Ice, that is originally a Stark sword. So what if it was also established before the Dawn of Time (or maybe it wasn't but happens anyway) that a Stark may win the sword back for House Stark and become the Sword of the Morning if he defeats the Others / the Night King and ends another Long Night with valor and self-sacrifice? Eddard Stark returned the sword to Starfall, which was the honourable thing to do among other things because it wasn't yet time for the Starks to reclaim it (Ned didn't have to know that, by the way). So what if Jon Snow becomes the Stark who wins back the true ancestral sword of his family?

This was my thought as well - if Dawn is original Ice, Jon does not "need" to be a Dayne.

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

First up--hurray for bringing this back! :commie:

I'm not sure if you want to focus on here or TLH--I'm heading over there in a bit. But I'll post this here just in case--or perhaps just to annoy you.

LOL! I like that we can break up quotes better here now, but it still pales in comparison to the ease of the Hearth.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So--would Ned need to know/believe this backstory for the symbolism to work?

I don't think so. But, just as Longclaw feels wrong in Jon's hands, I'm thinking Dawn felt wrong to Ned. Ned was not the son of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Dayne) meant to wield Dawn. Ned preferred the newer steel to the arcane milkglass. Conjecture all, of course. But not without some precedent.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

He seems to dismiss a lot of Nan's stories as "stories."

He does, but not always...

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

Another Stark with split personalities. ;)

The soft voiced Father.... and the Lord who values a loud battlefield voice...

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Messes up on the direwolves with killing Lady, etc.

He does, but not always...

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."
Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
 
If Jon were with Ned at the Trident, I think Ned would have taken a different course. And remember, Ned did protect Lady, and Nymeria to the bitter end. It was Cersei that forced his hand. In Ned's place, I think even that frozen direwolf in the snow would have killed Lady before allowing the mute giant in armor made of stone to touch her pup.
 
Ned wore the face of Ned-the-Father, and used his soft voice with Lady. I wonder if he used it with Lyanna and Ashara as well.
 
5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But feeling guilt over Arthur--and the subsequent horror--that would be enough to symbolize the guilt, no? And fit in with the symbolism of the Bael Tale--the battle was a kinslaying, resulting in the return of an artifact. 

Seems a plausible parallel to me.

We have to ask ourselves, why on earthos would Ned attribute Jon's bastardy to lust instead of prophecy (AGOT Eddard IX), say that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever knew (ACOK Bran III), and yet kill him with Howland Reed's help - in spite of losing the duel to Dawn in the hands of the Sword of the Morning. I'm thinking the only way Ned could repay the debt was to raise Arthur's mournful son / morning sun.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Also--have you seen Anath's take on Allyria's being an echo of the Night's Queen here? She also talks about it a bit earlier in the thread. Might fit well with your ideas.

Just came upon it today. I quite like it. Eyes like stars could well be purple-ish too. I've seen purple stars in the night sky... all depends on the atmosphere.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

 

This part I'm still iffy on. I keep thinking that we are getting an echo of how Dawn is bestowed in Game--where Cat's heard that Ned returned the sword to Ashara--not to the Daynes or to the Lord of Starfall, but to Ashara. Cersei seems to think something similar. 

Indeed. Why Ashara? So many puzzles lead to this question. Again, this demonstrates how pivotal House Dayne truly is. Cat and Cersei mirror each other often, in my opinion. And Cersei delivers the slap that Cat always wanted to give Ned, when she arrived at WF after delivering Ned's firstborn son, only to find Jon and his wetnurse have already taken up residence.

But yes, why Ashara... It might be that she was the Lady of the house at that point. Edric is a very young Lord, and I believe Ashara is older than Allyria. It would be like Sansa becoming Lady Protector of Winterfell until Bran or Rickon came of age, methinks.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And then the story of Galladon of Morne, knight of Tarth and Evenfall, which is ruled by the Evenstar --clear echoe of Galahad and Starfall and the Daynes.

And a House whose "better sword" is not its heir, and might be a bastard herself.

I'd add that Evenstar is also an echo of Night's King, but then, almost everything in these books is, for me. LOL

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

In that tale (as Brienne tells it) the sword is bestowed from worthiness. BUT Galladon doesn't wield it against an uneven foe. For honor--the point is honor, she insists.

Indeed. The same is true of Dawn. It is not bestowed from Lord to heir, but to the most worthy wielder of that house. And, interestingly, Arthur is as synonymous with honor as Ned, and the sword itself symbolizes that honor in the story AS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE TWO MOST ANCIENT HOUSES IN WESTEROS when Ned returns Dawn to Starfall.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So, any chance that sword wasn't originally an Other sword, but got used wrongly/dishonorably by the Night's King? Thus becoming like the Others' swords?

That is precisely my theory, but in inverse transcription...

I think BtB began honorable, and stayed honorable by light of day. But, by night, he changed. He laid with a pale, icy woman, and gave her his seed and soul. Now, I don't think I'll need to try and convince many here that seed and soul are embodied in a sword. Many cases of swords as phallic symbols in the books.

So, Night's King gave her his sword. In Nissa-Nissa-like fashion, she transformed it. Transformed by his dishonor - both man and sword=seed+soul.

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23 minutes ago, LmL said:

I've saved all of those convos, tons of good stuff in there back when you used to read my essays :crying: :dunce: :frown5:

 

I think I did read the ones we were talking about back then...

13 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

@Voice and @Voice of the First Men  I'm telling you, you have TWO accounts.  I've seen you post from both since the upgrade...

I just posted on @Voice's wall. He seems like a cool dude.

I don't know how or why, but the admins have split our personas in half. I guess you reap what you sow. It looks like I am @Voice on Tapatalk and good ole VotFM on the desktop. LOL

I never created a new account, I just shortened my name in my old account one day, and now they have each taken on a life of their own.

@Ran, let me know if there is a remedy ole chap. You remember that one time when I had your back, don't ya. :)

12 minutes ago, LmL said:

This was my thought as well - if Dawn is original Ice, Jon does not "need" to be a Dayne.

I'm not following the logic... how so?

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36 minutes ago, Voice of the First Men said:

I think you've misunderstood my theory. How do you think the Dayne's got Dawn? It just so happens they got it around the same time as the rise/downfall of the Night's King... and... unsurprisingly... the End of The Long Night.   Yes, I would have to have misunderstood as I read the Daynes are an ancient house, established or founded in Westeros when the 1st Dayne followed the trail of a fallen star.   But you're right, it doesn't say when the star fell or give a particular time.   I am the victim of supposition in text here. 

Indeed. But you are acting as if Dawn and House Dayne existed prior to the Last Hero and Night's King. The text does not bear such a suggestion.  Certainly puts a twist on my time line doesn't it?

Indeed. But we don't even know if the Sword of the Evening wields Dawn.   Frickin' Daynes are just a black hole of endless mystery.

I would point out that the mere fact that House Dayne has known Swords of the Morning and Swords of the Evening means it is a House accustomed with Light and Dark Warriors - see the story of Night's King.   This is really good requires investigation. 

I have submitted the same proposal. I am the guy who coined the idea that the reason why the great families/houses covet Valyrian Steel, is that it is the fabled dragonsteel of the Annals. And, that it was valued by lord protectors and wardens of territories when they actually had to protect and ward their bannermen and vassals from the Others. Watcher on the walls.  I agree very much with the bold, and disagree very much with the Targs being equalizers. They are not. Targs are but another threat to the realm, not the saviors of it.   Easy Voice, I'm a huge fan of the swords and a possible reenactment of TLH scenario.  I am working on a spreadsheet and need help with it, don't tempt me to sent it to you with my tears on it.   I'd love to hear exactly what you think the Starks actually did to earn their renown after the Long Night.   My only qualm with the Targs as Satan Incarnate is the swords.   It was the Valyrians who made these swords and imported them to Westeros.   I can't believe they didn't understand exactly what VS was really for.  As I read it, the advent of VS became prevalent shortly after the Doom--isn't that a coincidence.   I never thought the Targs were saviors, but I have to believe their dragons and fire magic are half of balance that needs be restored.  Without Aegon and Visenya's soon to be revealed VS we would not have the correct heroes:swords ratio.    If VS is only a recent invention could dragon steel have been made from the heart of a meteor? As I said, my offering was not researched or thought out, just a small from the hip alternative to your ideas. 

 

 

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