Lady Dyanna Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 18 hours ago, LmL said: TWOIAF gives information about the Qohoric smiths sacrificing babies in an attempt to re-create Valyrain steel. You should check it out sometime, it's a great book. I've read it. Great might be a bit of an overstatement, but it does shed some light. As for the sacrifice of babies, can you think of what one advantage of using babies might be? What might they have an overabundance of? I'm pretty sure that it's not blood. 18 hours ago, LmL said: This is a strange interpretation which I do not agree with. The swords brothers are all around him? That doesn't make sense. What makes a lot more sense is that the Dornishman's wife IS the black steel blade. The singer tasted it alright, that's why he's dying. Tons of stuff in the story about wedding the sword or the axe. Regardless if this is the case or not, I have never found Voice's idea about this convincing at all. Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought that you agreed with this. However this isn't the important part. The part below is. 18 hours ago, LmL said: However I am not against blades which drink souls. We know of two that do: Lightbringer, and the foul black weapons of the ancient Ironborn that are said to drink the souls of those they slew which we hear of in TWOIAF. BLACK weapons, it should be noted. It really doesn't matter whose soul is inside the blade, as long as we can agree that someone's is. 18 hours ago, LmL said: Lightbringer contains both NN's blood and soul, though. So if should and blood magic oppose... I'm not sure how that helps, because LB took both from NN. I'm guessing it might depend on which type of magic is the primary force in the function of the blade? I'm not entirely sure if one type might be stronger than the other or have a stronger affinity to the blade? Again, this is something of a work in progress. 18 hours ago, LmL said: not sure I follow, but it sounds interesting. One thing I will say about things which drink the light is they are pretty consistently associated with dragons and fire magic. Seems very much like an opposite to being "alive with light." That's one of the reasons I tend to buy the premise that Dawn is the original Ice (an idea I had before I ever met Voice, btw). I just don't think it's a straight Others sword, for all the reasons I listed. I do buy the idea of it containing some element of ice magic however, and I agree that the Wall and Dawn share a lot of symbolism. Well, if each element or force of magic has an opposing element or force, and use of each type can result in the build up of the opposing element/force, then it would stand to reason that a combination of spirit/soul and fire magic would result in shadowed burning blood. I'm not sure how else to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said: I've read it. Great might be a bit of an overstatement, but it does shed some light. As for the sacrifice of babies, can you think of what one advantage of using babies might be? What might they have an overabundance of? I'm pretty sure that it's not blood. Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought that you agreed with this. However this isn't the important part. The part below is. It really doesn't matter whose soul is inside the blade, as long as we can agree that someone's is. I'm guessing it might depend on which type of magic is the primary force in the function of the blade? I'm not entirely sure if one type might be stronger than the other or have a stronger affinity to the blade? Again, this is something of a work in progress. Well, if each element or force of magic has an opposing element or force, and use of each type can result in the build up of the opposing element/force, then it would stand to reason that a combination of spirit/soul and fire magic would result in shadowed burning blood. I'm not sure how else to explain it. You totally lost me on this last part. I'm not really sure how you're thinking about "soul magic," if that even is a thing. LB and the black weapons of the Ironborn and Lightbringer, and LB drank blood too, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of "soul magic" as a distinct phenomena, or what equation of soul and fire magic = black blood. Not trying to obtuse, I just don't know what you are getting at. Ditto with your remark about babies. What is your meaning? All I am trying to say is that Valyrian magic, like LB, is rooted in blood sacrifice. Blood for fire, fire for blood, as the dragonhorn says. LB is created with blood magic, Valyrian steel almost certainly so as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 5 minutes ago, LmL said: You totally lost me on this last part. I'm not really sure how you're thinking about "soul magic," if that even is a thing. LB and the black weapons of the Ironborn and Lightbringer, and LB drank blood too, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of "soul magic" as a distinct phenomena, or what equation of soul and fire magic = black blood. Not trying to obtuse, I just don't know what you are getting at. Ditto with your remark about babies. What is your meaning? All I am trying to say is that Valyrian magic, like LB, is rooted in blood sacrifice. Blood for fire, fire for blood, as the dragonhorn says. LB is created with blood magic, Valyrian steel almost certainly so as well. I don't want to take over Voice's thread with the idea, especially since its more of an instinct rather than a fully fleshed out theory at this point. It's an idea that I had while reading Evolett's essays on magic on her blog. She was using certain illnesses as a precursor to the way in which the Others killed and created wights. In my mind, however, these illnesses were more reflective of the consequences of the use of different types of magic. The mystery illness of Naath stood out in particular. It appears to be airborne (and what is spirit/soul if not air?) What is the end result? Its victims die, sweating BLOOD. It's probably going to take me a bit to pull it all together. Writing theory is a bit outside of my comfort zone. When I do finally get it together, hopefully you can check it out to see if it makes any more sense to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: As for the sacrifice of babies... What might they have an overabundance of? I'm pretty sure that it's not blood. Poop? (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice of the First Men Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 Poop? (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 51 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: Poop? (Sorry, couldn't resist!) And here I was thinking that it was life force or spirit energy, but yep, poop too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: I don't want to take over Voice's thread with the idea, especially since its more of an instinct rather than a fully fleshed out theory at this point. It's an idea that I had while reading Evolett's essays on magic on her blog. She was using certain illnesses as a precursor to the way in which the Others killed and created wights. In my mind, however, these illnesses were more reflective of the consequences of the use of different types of magic. The mystery illness of Naath stood out in particular. It appears to be airborne (and what is spirit/soul if not air?) What is the end result? Its victims die, sweating BLOOD. It's probably going to take me a bit to pull it all together. Writing theory is a bit outside of my comfort zone. When I do finally get it together, hopefully you can check it out to see if it makes any more sense to you. For sure! Like I said, it sounds interesting. I think Martin is doing a lot with astral projection - the spirit leaving the body - and I think if you think about "soul" in this sense you might get somewhere. Glad you're reading Evolett, her stuff is great. Some of it is a bit too far out on the limb for me, but most of it is terrific, some of it is really freaking terrific, and it's all well written. Her pearl essays knocked my socks off. 1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: Poop? (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Comment win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 4:57 PM, DarkSister1001 said: Nice job @Voice! I like it. Sly mentioned an idea I had so I thought I'd bring it up here. Perhaps the Dayne's got Ice bc they were able to do something that the Starks couldn't. If the KoW was brother to the NK he may have been unwilling/unable/afraid of killing his own brother. Ya know, kinslaying in all. No matter what good it does the realm (think Kingslayer and the reputation he has and the true story of why he had to). The Dayne's stepped up and ended it. In return the Starks gave up the sword thinking that were not worthy of it. That brings me to our current story... Rickon is wild. He may just end up being a villain given his abandonment, temperament and time in the North. If he's brought back to bind the North and isn't what he's expected to be, it could be a situation where Jon has to break a "law" for the good of the realm, again. Cat's worst nightmare, Jon proves he's worthy and gets the sword, but ends up shunned bc he's a kinslayer. First of all, Yes! While I disagree on the course of events a tad, this is exactly what I mean to suggest. Daynes corrected what Starks exacerbated. Regarding Ricking v Jon, I could definitely see that happening. The only part I disagree with is the suggestion that there was a contemporary King of Winter during the Long Night that wasn't the Night's King. We have several eras of Stark leadership that seem to have their correlating titles. Today, in Winter of the year 300 AC - Roose Bolton has usurped House Stark and is Warden of the North. If we look back, we can see that House Stark has been dwindling in power for quite some time. Head of House Stark's Dominion and Title throughout Time: Aegon's Conquest - Autumn 300 AC. "Wardens of the North" following Torrhen the Kneeler. Andal Invasion - Aegon's Conquest. "King in the North" following the advent of seven consolidated kingdoms, Starks held the northern kingdom. End of the Long Night - Andal Invasion. "King of Winter" following in the tradition of the Last Hero and Bran the Builder who sought to end the Winter of the Long Night. This likely occurred at a time and place that became known as "Winterfell". Conversely, the title of the "King of Winter" might be in the tradition of the Night's King. In any case, we have no text suggesting House Stark existed at all prior to the Bran the Builder's service in the Night's Watch, nor that they were "kings" until after the end of the Long Night. This seems to suggest that they stylized themselves the "Kings of Winter" because they endured, ended, or subdued the Long Night. Just my interp of course, but I think House Stark has slowly gone from being the Kings of the Long Night (Winter), to the Kings of the North-only... Then, they were demoted to Wardens of the North... and finally, today, they are completely dethroned and out of Winterfell. On 3/5/2016 at 4:57 PM, DarkSister1001 said: @Sly Wren - Quote didn't go where I intended but I freaking LOVE this. And if this was originally someone else's idea, correct me and I'll make it right. I loose my place in these forums sometimes. The idea of Lyanna as the Momma wolf is spectacular. She had the wolf blood. It's also interesting that Momma Wolf was killed by a stag. Robert obviously didn't kill Lyanna, but emotionally speaking it would have killed her for her Rhaeger to die and he did so at the hands (hooves) of a stag. All conjecture, but fun and NEW stuff. The Lyanna = Mamma Wolf thing just so happens to be my idea so I'm quite glad you like it. I've been hinting at it throughout a recent group reread project, but finally laid it out more fully in this post: http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/13604/thread. I think the Mother Wolf was Lyanna's familiar - either in life (wolf blood), or after (Weirwood colored face, Crypt Ghost). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 6:42 PM, White Ravens said: Wall of text again. But do enjoy wall of text debates. This latest post of yours blew me away how many times I had to swipe the screen to get all the way to the bottom. Geeze, talk about first world problems! Forgive me if I do not weep. LOL And your own wall of text was rather short. Still, let us dig in... Quote That part where you gave us every example of the words "dawn", "pale" and "light" appearing in one paragraph was a complete waste of your time and that of us poor readers. Yup. Looks like the point flew right over your head. Mayhaps if your own wall of text were higher, it would have reached you. I'm kidding of course, but mayhaps you are not in the mood. I did not include every paragraph with dawn, pale, and light in them. I included specifically the phrase "pale light"... the phrase "alive with light"... and passages containing the burning of dawn (particularly dawns that burn red). Much of those (as quoted above) were in response to @LmL however, and not you. In the future I'll break my responses to each of you into separate posts, though I'm not sure it will matter. Quote Of course descriptions of early morning are going to have those three words in them. But even more frustrating is that there is only one paragraph where "Dawn" (the sword) appears with "pale" and "light". Let's have a look at it again: The text states that "Dawn is as pale as milkglass". You stated that "Dawn is like milkglass", which text doesn't state. I called you on your misinterpretation and then you stated it wrong again. Excuse me? You "called me on" my misinterpretation? So, is the crux of your argument that "Dawn is as pale as milkglass" does not equal "Dawn is like milkglass"??? Really? Because I mean, who the hell cares? That is not a misinterpretation, that is restating a simile. Here's another: Martin states that Dawn is comparable to milkglass. Considering you are not a fan of quotes from the books, I'm surprised you would balk when I paraphrase it. Quote I think that GRRM is simply trying to establish that the appearance of Dawn is unusually pale for a metal blade, And that is the source of much of our disagreement. I am surprised someone as loyal to verbatim translations of canonical text as you would assert that Dawn is metal. The books do not state that Dawn is metal. Quote possibly for the simple reason of distinguishing its appearance from that of the notably dark but otherwise similar Valyrian steel blades. And since there is magic involved in this world it may even be that the blade is somewhat translucent. But I would like to point out that this quote is taken from a memory or a dream that Ned had of that fateful day at the Tower of Joy. It is a scene viewed through the romanticized fogs of time and memory. Ned remembers his companions as only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. Before you go congratulating yourself about me giving some ground on whether Dawn is completely opaque I want point out that there is a big difference between translucent and transparent. The Others' blades are described as crystal so thin that it almost disappears when viewed edge on. Others' swords are magical in nature and completely unlike those wielded by man. If the Sword of the Morning has been wielding an Others sword for several millennia wouldn't the descriptions of Dawn be more remarkable than "a greatsword that is pale as milk glass and alive with light"? The Smiling Knight says "It's that white sword of yours I want," but I would think he'd say something more like "It's that impossibly thin, transparent sword of your I want". Well, that's just it, Dawn isn't described much. I'll post the descriptions we do have for other readers. I know you are not a fan of such citations. A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn is very long) They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn is a two-hander, "pale as milkglass" and "alive with light") Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. A Clash of Kings - Bran III (Dawn was forged from starfall) "Was there one who was best of all?" "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII (Dawn is white, notches other swords) Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. A Feast for Crows - Jaime I (Dawn is pale, and impossibly sharp) It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer. The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. /quotes So, if we combine everything we learned from these citations, we see that Dawn is long, a two-handed greatsword pale as milkglass white alive with light forged from the heart of a fallen star cuts notches in steel sharp enough to cut through Jaime's tunic and skin like silk, with just a tap as of yet unseen and unexamined by Maester Yandel "those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp." I don't really hold it against Yandel that he has never seen Dawn. I doubt men prove themselves worthy of the blade by acting like Robb: Quote A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III "Gods," Robb swore, his young face dark with anger. "If this is true, he will pay for it." He drew his sword and waved it in the air. "I'll kill him myself!" Ser Rodrik bristled at him. "Put that away! The Lannisters are a hundred leagues away. Never draw your sword unless you mean to use it. How many times must I tell you, foolish boy?" Abashed, Robb sheathed his sword, suddenly a child again. Anyway, I know you dislike quotes. I apologize. Consider these provided for posterity only. I'd feel sour if I didn't compare what we learn about Dawn to the Others' blades, considering the topic of the thread... A Game of Thrones - Prologue The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch. The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air. Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy. When the blades touched, the steel shattered. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. A Storm of Swords - Samwell I The Other’s sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. it moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe. The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwel Tarly knew every kind of fear. “Mother have mercy,” he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. “Father protect me, oh oh...” His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that. The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul’s axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, “Oh,” as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip. /quotes Cool stuff right? So, in the AGoT Prologue, we learn that the blades of the Others: are longswords - but the tall and gaunt ones can wield them single-handedly are forged of no human metal are alive with moonlight are translucent are crystal have a blue shimmer have a ghost light about the edges are sharper than any razor are pale emit a high pitched sound when contacting steel turn a steel sword in the hands of a man white with frost - but not luminous dance with pale blue light bite through ringmail shatter steel once it is frozen and covered with frost slice through ringmail like silk And, in Samwell I ASoS, we learn that the blades of the Others: gleam with a faint blue glow are ice blue emit a sharp screech when contacting flame sharp enough to cut the head off of a torch without swiping the torch from Grenn's hand are crystal strange pale Now, if #3 from Samwell's chapter isn't "A Song of Ice and Fire," then I'm a mummer's dragon, but let us move on. If we recall what we learned about Dawn, we find it shares a surprising number of qualities to the blades of the Others in the Prologue and Samwell chapters. Dawn long, a two-handed greatsword [shared with #1 from the Prologue] pale as milkglass [paleness is described in Prologue 9, 12, and Samwell 7] white [not "white," but "pale" coloring is described in Prologue 9 and Samwell 7] alive with light [radiance is described in Prologue 3, 6, 7, 12, and Samwell 1] forged from the heart of a fallen star [this sounds a lot like Prologue 2, and Samwell's "strange" in #6] cuts notches in steel [no correlation, aside from Waymar's shattered steel and Grenn's torch] sharp enough to cut through and Jaime's skin like silk, with just a tap [extreme sharpness is described in Prologue 8, 13, 15, and Samwell 4] as of yet unseen and unexamined by Maester Yandel [Will and Samwell were also unfamiliar with the blades they described] Maester Yandel's descriptors are also easy to correlate with the Prologue and Samwell chapters of course: it looks like no Valyrian steel they know...but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades [Prologue 2, Samwell's "strange" in #6] pale as milkglass [paleness is described in Prologue 9, 12, and Samwell 7] incredibly strong and sharp [Prologue 8, 13, 15, and durability is evident in Prologue 14, as well as withstanding Small Paul's weight and mass in the Samwell chapter] I would not ask you to prove a negative, and demonstrate for me that the two-handed greatsword Dawn is not the same material as the longswords of the Others. But, I do think that if you are going to offer a rebuttal, it should include plausible alternative substances. The requirements for such a substance are quite simple. It should: be pale white or pale as milkglass be able to emit light (even when it isn't on fire) be made of exotic materials, preferably connected to the heart of stars be able to cut steel be able to bear an edge sharp enough to part human clothing and skin like silk look like no Valyrian steel known, yet be as durable and sharp I await your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: You conveniently forgot the one which doesn't match - Renly's tent. Completely unintentional my friend. I remembered to search "alive with light" and "alive with moonlight" but did not remember to search "alive with emerald light"... There may well be others. If you find/know of any please let me know. Anyhoo, let us rectify that error, as it is a fascinating example: A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV ("alive with __ light" = magical transformation) The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light. Two of the Rainbow Guard stood sentry at the door to the royal pavilion. The green light shone strangely against the purple plums of Ser Parmen's surcoat, and gave a sickly hue to the sunflowers that covered every inch of Ser Emmon's enameled yellow plate. Long silken plumes flew from their helms, and rainbow cloaks draped their shoulders. Great passage @LmL. Thanks for the reminder. A green counterpart for our blue shimmering swords. While you are quite right that this is not Tyndall scattering, it is still an effect rendered by the scattering of light. Here, rather than emanate from crystal, we have candlelight obstructing, scattering, and emitting emerald light. Like Tyndall/Rayleigh effects, it is also described as being "alive with light". On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: And again, you're not clearly spelling out whatever your point is. Sorry. Not trying to be cryptic. I am only laying out the passages that describe common attributes with Dawn. If I haven't explained properly, it is probably because I am also going back and forth with @White Ravens as well. In adding the numerous passages, I hoped to illustrate that Dawn (and dawn) are far better described by the novels than they are the companion piece. For the nonce, I was trying to interject that dawn (as in 'the sunrise') can be pale, alive with light, and burn red - all at once...and that is pretty darn interesting for the purposes of our discussion. Also, while the world book comes close to describing Dawn as metallic, it doesn't. Neither does it suggest that Dawn is opaque, as milkglass can also be translucent (particularly thin milkglass). I should have explained this earlier and I do apologize, but in the dark ages, many glassworks were impure. Impure glass was the norm, actually. Such impure glassworks varied greatly in transparency and translucence, as is expected. I should have pointed this out before, because we today are far more accustomed to glassworks with an incredible degree of clarity and purity. Colored glass used to be the norm, and milkglass was the term used to describe glassworks that were pale in appearance. They could be opaque, but were often translucent. I actually worked at a glass-blowing shop in college, so it was a term I was readily familiar with. I blew my fair share of colorful pipes for alternative herbal blends, but I digress... LOL But yes, milkglass can be rather opaque, particularly when very thick or not illuminated. And today, the term mainly applies to white glass. But even that rather opaque-looking white glass can emit light. It is often used for candle bulbs and porch light covers because of that property. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: And the burning tower of the hand doesn't fit, either. No tyndall effect there, just fire. Stannis's sword is a glamour, no tyndall or ice there. You know I tend to think Dawn = original Ice is likely, but beyond that... what are you saying here? Happy to oblige. I mean to say that when something is "alive with light" it is either the result of Tyndall/Rayleigh scattering, or actual fire. I included the burning tower in the interest of full disclosure, and to illustrate just how difficult it is to mimic the "alive with light" feature. That goes for Stannis' sword as well, but with Stannis' sword I find it interesting that Martin is waving around an obviously falsely named sword at the Wall that is supposed to "bring light" and is "alive with light". As Maester Aemon pointed out, Stannis' sword might be impressively brilliant, but it radiates no heat. Per Aemon's understanding, that seems to be a necessary prerequisite. Your candidate of Valyrian steel is a good one, as I too believe it is the dragonsteel of lore. But, Valyrian steel, I think we agree, is likely made with a secret ingredient of dragonglass. At first glance, the idea of a sword made from dragonglass, combined with steel, that can be ignited like a glass candle sounds like the solution to the problem. I used to make the same argument many moons ago. So while I agree that steel+obsidian likely yields dragonsteel, I believe that even magically-ignited dragonsteel would NOT satisfy Aemon's definition of Lightbringer. Why? Well, because obsidian doesn't radiate heat. Glass candles give a very eerie light as well, but again, they radiate no heat. Marwyn required a fire in the hearth, in spite of the room being lit by an obsidian candle. And since it does not consume anything, there is no fuel present to convert into radiation. A Feast for Crows - Samwell V When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room. The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?" ". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes. "Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed." On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Do a google image search on milkglass and you will see almost entirely opaque white milkglass. That's the most well known version. And even the translucent milkglass does not look like crystal. Indeed. But again, I am not suggesting these things are actual milkglass. Actual milkglass is blown in a hot shop, using fire, and cured in a kiln. The Others are not glassblowers. Ice is their medium, just as carbon is ours. From the Wiki: In an email to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson, George R. R. Martin wrote “ The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.[11] ” They wear reflective armour that shifts in colour with every step - rather like the stealth armour once said to have been worn by the children of the forest. According to Patterson, “ Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. ” The Others appear to be superior swordsmen, wielding thin crystal swords said to be so cold as to shatter any object they touch, including the steel blades favoured by the Night's Watch.[2] The sword of the Other that Samwell Tarly slays gleams with a faint blue glow. When the ice blue blade brushes the flames of Grenn's torch a screech as sharp as a needle stabs Sam's ears. When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from Martin answered, “ Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: And crystals do not use tyndall effect. I think these differences are important - they indicate that Dawn is not simply an Other's icy sword. How so? I agree of course that Tyndall/Rayleigh effects are not applicable to true crystals, but even true crystals do indeed scatter light and can appear luminous. The terms are all analogous. Our "translucence" = crystal diaphaneity. Our Tyndall/Rayleigh scattering = crystal refractive index. And again, I am only trying to describe the effect and properties. In the end, we must admit to ourselves that the substance an Other sword is made of is simply ice. Just as we manipulate carbon, and are made of carbon, the Others manipulate ice and are made of ice. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Made from one? Perhaps. But I think Dawn is something different, something more. And you've given no reason to completely disregard the meteor story. You're trying to say Dawn is pure ice, but I think this is a stretch, and not well supported. So rather than simply be happy you have the sword of an Other, you think the owner of such an incredible artifact would alter it? We've seen what the swords of the Others can do, and just how incredibly superior to any man-made blades. That seems like far more of a stretch to me, to think the first Sword of the Morning believed he could rework the substance. He probably made himself a scabbard, and improved the grip (considering the prior owner walks on snow without depressing it, friction probably behaves much differently for them). He probably added a hilt as well, considering Dalla's proverb about sorcery... But beyond that, I'm having a hard time imagining any Dayne as an Ice-smith. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Yeah ok, that's a reasonable speculation.. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: WTH are you talking about? Most of these involved no Tyndall effect whatsoever. This is just confusing. The only ones that might are the ones describing the sword Dawn, the Others's swords, and Thistles eyes. The others are just pale sunlight or moonlight. Sunlight and blue skies are not Tyndall effect: Umm...yes they are. While I am glad you agree that the sword Dawn and the Others' swords are both exhibiting it, I think you must have glossed over what the Tyndall effect actually is, because: Blue eye color = Tyndall scattering Sunlight = Rayleigh scattering Blue skies = Rayleigh scattering (check out the opalescent glass) In terms of Ice, Dawn, and Other swords, definitely read the porous materials section. The medium is of course different, so we might be arguing over the semantics a bit, but the effect is the same. The scattering of light creates the color blue, yet emits red and orange light. It's how dawn (sunrise) can be both pale blue and burn red at the same time. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: So ugh, yeah, most of those are not Tyndall. Yup, Tyndall applies to the scattering of light by larger particles. Rayleigh is the term when light is scattered by smaller particles. The important part is the "scattering of light" concept as I think this yields our writer's fondess for the "alive with light" motif. On the Tyndall effect page, you should see a ball of opalescent glass. From there, you can jump over to the Rayleigh scattering page, and the T-matrix stuff. All good reading on this subject imo. (I might add that it presents itself in other writings from GRRM as well, but that is definitely another discussion). On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Oops, my bad. Got those two sections confused. Of course, you're not claiming the Other's sword in ASOS is different than the crystalline ones in the Prologue, right? Definitely not. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: I guess I just think your case is not well supported, imho. I think I've made a pretty solid case for Dawn being the sword of an Other. Clearly, if I'm even partly right about the NK=BtB stuff, and Dawn = Ice, it will not be revealed until the conclusion of the series. Hence theories. The other aspect we've yet to discuss is the great deal of similarity between the Wall and Dawn. The Wall is of course, also ice. Not being mean spirited here, just think it is an interesting subject for consideration. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Still not crystalline or transparent, not even sure why you quoted this (again). Can it be quoted enough? "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Not crystalline or transparent you say? I'm talking about opalescence and translucent ice that looks like milkglass. I provided a great deal of citations that demonstrate that the only objects in the series that are "alive with light" are either crystalline (as in the seven sided crystal in the sept), translucent (as in the Other's sword in the Prologue, Renly's tent), or simply "on fire." Unless you think Arthur Dayne caught Dawn on fire when he unsheathed it, methinks it has the ability to scatter light, and therefore, it is by definition translucent. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Maybe. But the obsidian dagger was only cold because it seems to have absorbed or drank something from the Other. It didn't get cold in Sam's hand when he was near the other - only after melting it, and only for a moment. I follow your speculation on Dawn not being cold when it is not in the hands of an Other - that makes sense - but the dragonglass doesn't support your argument. It does. Imagine if the Other held anything. Grenn's torch. Samwell's sword. Ser Pounce. It would probably get pretty cold, right? Now, reflect back to Waymar Royce's duel with the Other in the AGoT Prologue. Waymar's sword began to freeze and frost over. Once in contact with the Other, the dragonglass dagger too became very cold. Once away from it, it ceased being cold. I am positing that the swords of the Others are similarly cold-forged. If you can believe that obsidian is frozen fire, it shouldn't be hard to imagine that the swords of the Others are burning ice. Each has magical properties, and in ASOIAF, magical origins, but still, each is a rather hard and tangible substance. It is difficult to imagine water in mineral form, but that is precisely what the Others have created. In the words of GRRM: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Makes sense. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: Wrong. It didn't break the sword, that's the point - it notched it, Did it not break off the pieces it notched away? Sure, the entire sword was not cut in half, or shattered, but the fact remains that Dawn broke pieces away from the Smiling Knight's sword. The Smiling Knight stood against Arthur, with his sword beginning to falter in his hand. This should remind you of Waymar Royce checking the Other's slashes. Arthur Dayne allowed him to go fetch a new blade. The Smiling Knight said he wanted Arthur's sword. Then Arthur mocked him and said, "Then you shall have it ser." That should remind you of A Game of Thrones - Prologue Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Then, Arthur made an end of it. That should remind you of the shattering of Waymar's blade. Of course, the Other was far more cruel, but like him, Arthur Dayne was toying with a lesser foe that was already dead. That's the way of the world when you have superior weaponry. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: because it is superior steel. Is it? Do you have a quote stating it was steel at all? Let alone superior steel? On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: No breaking, no shattering. Again, maybe that happens when an Other holds it. But let's be accurate to the text - Dawn has never broken a sword that we are told about. Cleaved a sword in half, no. Turned a sword into scrap metal, yes. On 3/5/2016 at 10:16 PM, LmL said: ...or see if you can stop being so damn cryptic and just say what you mean. Well, that portion you cited was directed at @White Ravens good ser, not you. I think you already see the connections there, because I know we've discussed them before. But I'll happily explain. I wasn't being intentionally cryptic, I thought the connection was obvious: 1. A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III (Others' swords metaphor) "Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end." 2. A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn) Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. 3. A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV (bottles that are opaque?) The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood . . . 4. A Storm of Swords - Samwell I (an Other's bones) Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." 5. The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive (Dawn) The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. 1. Ghost grass that glows with the souls of the damned, taller than a man on horseback, with stalks as pale as milkglass: A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. tall and gaunt Other, meet taller than a man on horseback grass pale as milk Other, meet pale as milkglass Ghost Grass stalks = pointy ends = needles = swords murders all other grass = frozen dead lands glows in the dark with spirits of the damned = alive with ghost light all life will end = hating everything with hot blood in its veins 2. Dawn is pale as milkglass and alive with light this recalls Ghost Grass, the swords of Others, death. 3. Pycelle's milkglass bottles. They are very organized (by "an orderly mind") sweetsleep, nightshade, milk of the poppy - forms of death.... ways to slip into a sea of warm milk, as Gared would say. powdered greycap - sounds like snow to me... or the Wall wolfsbane - bane of the wolf. Enemy of House Stark, wrapped in milkglass. demon's dance - "Dance with me then" -- Waymar Royce basilisk venom - the kiss of the blade blind eye - cold eyes, and blue, blind Symeon widow's blood - their version of Dornish red 4. Bones like Milkglass Translucent Ice Bottling death - like Pycelle's bottles and their icy blades They melt into liquid - like an ocean of ghost grass 5. Dawn in the world book pale as Ghost Grass pale as the bones of Others pale as Pycelle's sweetsleeping wolfsbane demon dancers pale as Winter pale as the Wall pale as Ice Milkglass is mentioned an incredibly few number of times, yet when it is, it is rarely good. Either Dawn is an exception, or we must (like everything else in the series) look at this legendary greatsword of Heroes as having a dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 10:25 PM, LmL said: BTW, @Voice, I am not saying that the Others swords cannot be milkglass, only that we'd need new information to come to that conclusion. I just don't think a human could even handle a sword of the Others. I mean, on one hand you are saying that the Others bring the cold, and their swords are only cold when they hold them. But this contradicts Martin's SSM stating they are made of ice. No it doesn't. Read the SSM again. It is ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. Make. Substances. Of. It... Cold forging my friend. Huge implications there...like 700 ft high, 300 mile long implications. On 3/5/2016 at 10:25 PM, LmL said: If they are made of ice, then they are cold, all the time, or else they would melt. It is a fantasy novel. Fire is frozen and can be carried without burning. This is the opposite. On 3/5/2016 at 10:25 PM, LmL said: Your theory calls for a sword made of magical ice which is so cold it shatters steel, No, it doesn't. You seemed to understand this just one comment ago. The Others bring the cold. As a result, their swords get cold too, but seeing as they are made of ice, that's not a problem. If you are holding castle forged steel on the other hand, it does. The Other's sword shattered the window, but only after it was cold-forged. Being as steel cannot undergo the process, it became brittle. Fortunately, for the Other, his blade also happens to be sharp and durable. It was an easy task. Remember the lazy parry. On 3/5/2016 at 10:25 PM, LmL said: but which also ceases being cold without melting... that's room temperature ice which doesn't melt. Indeed. Come over here and meet my friend Obsidian. He's frozen fire, but now he's room temperature. Housebroken. Doesn't burn at all. On 3/5/2016 at 10:25 PM, LmL said: But it used to be so cold it snaps metal. I don't think that is logically consistent, my man. Ugh... I swear, you just saw the distinction I was making but one comment ago. Somehow you've lost it here. I'm still catching up, so maybe you've regained it since. Anyway, no. The blade is not an otter pop that snaps metal. It is an entirely novel substance (like the opalescent milkglass) created by the Others. It can withstand their weaponized cold. Cold is the real enemy, and the real weapon. The sword is just for dumbasses like Waymar who want to die dancing and screaming. If you're smart, you'll just fall asleep and drown in that sea of warm milk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 A few comments, some new, some posted in various threads before. If you have a fantasy story with a hero and a famous sword, the hero has to wield the famous sword to save the world. Jon not wielding Dawn would be meh. To wield Dawn, Jon Snow needs to be a Dayne. I know the tv show isn't canon, but: if they are to reveal Jon's parentage in flashbacks, wouldn't they cast his father?As far as weknow the show has casted Arthur Dayne but not Rhaegar Targaryen. Just saying ... Following your theory I wonder if the death or Arthur Dayne and Ned returning Dawn to Starfall triggered the return of the Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 11:08 PM, LmL said: As long as we are playing "spot the loosely scientific concept in the fantasy novel," I'd like you to introduce you to my friend Phosphours, also called Eosphorus. Eosphorus is the Greek name for Venus when it appears as the Morningstar (Hesperus is the Evenstar position name). The Latin equivalent for Eosphorus (phosphorus) is "Lucifer." And if I have taught anyone anything, it is that Lucifer means Lightbringer. Lucifer and Eosphorus are the same word - one is Latin, on e is Greek. They both mean the same things: light-bringer light-bearer dawn-bringer son of the morning shining one Some other fun facts about phosphorus, this light bringer stone: two kinds - white and red phosphorus white phosphorus emits a feint glow when exposed to oxygen (but not red), and this glow has a slight glimmer of green or blue burns very brightly with pale flame is necessary for the first chain reactions of life on earth scientists think it first arrived on earth via COMET it can be added to steel to make it SHARPER "phosphorescence" means "glowing," and Martin used this word for the Ash River at Asshai a main source of phosphorus for ancient man was bone ash - the same thing used to make milkglass opaque the glow of WP is actually not technically "phosphorescence," but rather chemiluminescence (glowing due to a cold chemical reaction) So while Tyndall scattering is interesting, the word Tyndal is not used in the books (seriously George, why no House Tyndal or squire Tyndall, something? Tindall? Tyndael? Tyaendaelae? Tyndwyn? But no...). Lightbringer is, and phosphorescence is, however, and given that Phosphorus means Lightbringer, burns white, arrived on comets, is associated with life, makes steel sharper, glows because of a cold reaction, is made with bone ash... I'd say phosphorus is a good candidate if we are looking for quasi-scientific ideas behind the origins of Dawn. Obviously, I do not find the ideas of Dawn being original Ice AND having been made from a comet to be in conflict. Comets are frozen rock, after all. In fact, a comet might have everything we need for advanced glowing white steel. Comet rock is mostly iron, but can contain trace elements needed to refine iron into steel, such as nickel and phosphorus. They might have just needed to pop that baby in the oven (or the cold forge) and hammer away. Dip it into a puddle of melted Other or Ice Dragon to temper it, and presto. BTW, it should be noted that White Phosphorus can be used to make horrible radioactive burnbing projectiles, and the injuries from this are horrific. The US used in Fallujah and other places in Iraq (these were war crimes, fwiw). If you google "white phosphorus," you may seen images of horrific burn victims, many of them children - fair warning. It's probably also worth considering this side of WP, especially since Dawn "came cruel, a dagger of light" that one time when Cat dreamed of Robb playing with a wooden sword. Yup, Phosphorus is literally the Hero of the Morning... Dawn-bringer. Finally, you're making sense again. I'm all for phosphorus, and phosphorescence. It pops up in other Martin works, and I've mentioned it before as a source of the "alive with light"-ness of the swords. When you see that the two are not mutually exclusive, Ice and Phosphorus, I have a feeling that we'll be agreeing a lot more on this. Maybe you already see this though, with the comet (Ice that burns Red)... in which case I'm not sure what we're arguing about... Men of Greywater Station Quote “Yep,” Sanderpay said with a grin. “I already started. But they won’t be very accurate. For one thing, they’ll reach about a mile in altitude before we can begin to control them. Then, we’ll be forcing the trajectory. They’ll want to continue in a long arc. We’ll want them back down almost to the launching point. It’ll be like wrestling a two-headed alligator. I’m thinking of filing half of them with that explosive Andrews is trying to make, and the rest with white phosphorus. But that might be tricky.” Tuf Voyaging: Manna from Heaven Quote She heard footsteps, and a small light flicked on two meters away. Tuf was bent over an instrument console, watching a monitor panel. He pressed one key in a luminescent keyboard, and turned. A padded wingback floater chair came whispering out of the warm darkness. Tuf climbed into it like a king ascending a throne, and touched a control on the arm. The chair lit up with a feint violet phosphorescence. This Tower of Ashes Quote Darkness lasted only for a moment, till our eyes adjusted to a dimmer light. Around us, the forest was suffused by a gentle radiance, as the bluemoss drenched us in its ghostly phosphorescence. We were standing near one side of a small clearing, below a shiny black ebonfire, but even the flames of its red-veined wood seemed cool in the faint blue light. The moss had taken over the undergrowth, supplanting all the local grasses and making nearby shrubs into fuzzy blue beachballs. It climbed the sides of most of the trees, and when we looked up through the branches at the stars, we saw that other colonies had set upon the woods a glowing crown. Dying of the Light (Chapter 2): Quote They had been walking for more than an hour when the character of the forest around them began to change. Slowly, subtly, the change seeped in, almost too gradual for Dirk to notice. But Gwen showed him. The familiar blend of homeforest was giving way, yielding to something stranger, something unique, something wilder. Gaunt black trees with gray leaves, high walls of red-tipped briar, drooping weepers of pale phosphorescent blue, great bulbous shapes infested with dark flaking splotches; to each of these Gwen pointed and gave a name. One type became more and more common: a towering yellowish growth that sprouted tangled branches from all over its waxy trunk, and smaller offshoots from those branches, and still smaller ones from those, until it had built itself into a tight wooden maze. "Chokers," Gwen called them, and Dirk soon saw why. Here in the deep of the wood one of the chokers had grown alongside a regal silverwood, sending out crooked yellow-wax branches to mingle with straight, stately gray ones, burrowing roots under and around those of the other tree, constricting its rival in an ever-tightening vise. And now the silverwood could scarce be seen: a tall dead stick lost in the swelling choker. Dying of the Light (Chapter 4): Quote The city of the night was vast and intricate, with only a few scattered lights to pierce the darkness it was set in, as a pale jewel is set on soft black felt. Alone among the cities it stood in the wild beyond the mountainwall, and it belonged there, in the forests of chokers and ghost trees and blue widowers. From the dark of the wood, its slim white towers rose wraithlike toward the stars, linked by graceful spun bridges that glittered like frozen spiderwebs. Low domes stood lonely vigils amid a network of canals whose waters caught the tower lights and the twinkle of infrequent far-off stars, and ringing the city were a number of strange buildings that looked like thin-fleshed angular hands clutching up at the sky. The trees, such as there were, were outworld trees; there was no grass, only thick carpets of dimly glowing phosphorescent moss. And the city had a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 hour ago, alienarea said: A few comments, some new, some posted in various threads before. If you have a fantasy story with a hero and a famous sword, the hero has to wield the famous sword to save the world. Jon not wielding Dawn would be meh. Amen. It sure the hell would be. Quote To wield Dawn, Jon Snow needs to be a Dayne. Yup. Exactly. Quote I know the tv show isn't canon, but: if they are to reveal Jon's parentage in flashbacks, wouldn't they cast his father?As far as weknow the show has casted Arthur Dayne but not Rhaegar Targaryen. Just saying ... It does raise an eyebrow... Quote Following your theory I wonder if the death or Arthur Dayne and Ned returning Dawn to Starfall triggered the return of the Others? Hey, don't spoil the next thread!!! LOL But yes, I agree. We know Waymar wasn't the first: A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I "The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran." "I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North. "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well." We met some of those deserters when Bran was out riding in his new saddle, you'll remember. They were not fleeing Mance Rayder, they were fleeing white walkers. Even more telling is how Mance came to power: Spoiler A Storm of Swords - Jon X It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once." "Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say. "Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough." "Your losses haven't been that heavy." "Not at your hands." Mance studied Jon's face. "You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing." "The Others . . . " "They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots." "Nor you?" "Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn. Again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . . " "But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?" Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days." Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly. "I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow." Mance has been King beyond the Wall for a long time (was it 17 years??) and we know he came to power uniting the wildlings against the Others. They tried fighting them. They tried placating them. They tried looking for the Horn of Joramun. All failed. In the end, they decided to come hide behind the Wall - their last hope. What is really interesting is that Ned brings Dawn to Starfall, and then seems to return to Winterfell with Jon. I'm thinking this coincides with the return of the Others. Jon's wetnurse is from Starfall. Most likely Jon is the son of Arthur and Lyanna. So yup, I'm thinking the return of Dawn to Starfall - by a Stark of all people - oiled the great hinge of the world. Suddenly, there was an edge to the darkness. And in order for Dawn to rise, it first has to be dark. It is truly special... that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind. 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Voice Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 But yes. Spoiler alert folks!!! As @alienarea has suggested, if my theory is correct, then I think we should expect huge ramifications for a Stark killing the Sword of the Morning wielding Dawn of all people. Particularly when that Sword of the Morning is expecting a son from a she-wolf. (There's your chink in a wall of ice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Wow! I have rearly seen a theory like that so i to you. I have never thought about that. However I would like to add a small detail. I think that before Ice turning into Dawn it became Lightbringer. I have long believed that all the all the saviour figures was just one person and that the differenct cultures scopes just gave him their own cultures aspects; the Targs or even the Valyrian named him a 3headed dragon, the North the Last Hero, the R'llorists Azor Ahai the wood witch named him the Prince that was Promised. We know that the Wall is protected by different kind of magic and since Mel's magic grew stronger at the Wall some fire magic has to be involved. So he used his sword Ice and by using the fire magic at the Wall created Lightbringer. After the war the two "natures" of the sword created and brought the Dawn. I confess that only came to me just because of the colors associated with each sword; ice blue for Ice and red for Lightbringer becomes purple for Dawn. Or I most likely am absolutely wrong and I am talking completely nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 6 hours ago, Voice said: Geeze, talk about first world problems! Forgive me if I do not weep. LOL And your own wall of text was rather short. Still, let us dig in... Yup. Looks like the point flew right over your head. Mayhaps if your own wall of text were higher, it would have reached you. I'm kidding of course, but mayhaps you are not in the mood. I did not include every paragraph with dawn, pale, and light in them. I included specifically the phrase "pale light"... the phrase "alive with light"... and passages containing the burning of dawn (particularly dawns that burn red). Much of those (as quoted above) were in response to @LmL however, and not you. In the future I'll break my responses to each of you into separate posts, though I'm not sure it will matter. Excuse me? You "called me on" my misinterpretation? So, is the crux of your argument that "Dawn is as pale as milkglass" does not equal "Dawn is like milkglass"??? Really? Because I mean, who the hell cares? That is not a misinterpretation, that is restating a simile. Here's another: Martin states that Dawn is comparable to milkglass. Considering you are not a fan of quotes from the books, I'm surprised you would balk when I paraphrase it. And that is the source of much of our disagreement. I am surprised someone as loyal to verbatim translations of canonical text as you would assert that Dawn is metal. The books do not state that Dawn is metal. Well, that's just it, Dawn isn't described much. I'll post the descriptions we do have for other readers. I know you are not a fan of such citations. A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn is very long) They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn is a two-hander, "pale as milkglass" and "alive with light") Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. A Clash of Kings - Bran III (Dawn was forged from starfall) "Was there one who was best of all?" "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII (Dawn is white, notches other swords) Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. A Feast for Crows - Jaime I (Dawn is pale, and impossibly sharp) It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer. The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. /quotes So, if we combine everything we learned from these citations, we see that Dawn is long, a two-handed greatsword pale as milkglass white alive with light forged from the heart of a fallen star cuts notches in steel sharp enough to cut through Jaime's tunic and skin like silk, with just a tap as of yet unseen and unexamined by Maester Yandel "those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp." I don't really hold it against Yandel that he has never seen Dawn. I doubt men prove themselves worthy of the blade by acting like Robb: Anyway, I know you dislike quotes. I apologize. Consider these provided for posterity only. I'd feel sour if I didn't compare what we learn about Dawn to the Others' blades, considering the topic of the thread... A Game of Thrones - Prologue The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch. The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air. Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy. When the blades touched, the steel shattered. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butch ery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. A Storm of Swords - Samwell I The Other’s sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. it moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe. The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwel Tarly knew every kind of fear. “Mother have mercy,” he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. “Father protect me, oh oh...” His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that. The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul’s axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, “Oh,” as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip. /quotes Cool stuff right? So, in the AGoT Prologue, we learn that the blades of the Others: are longswords - but the tall and gaunt ones can wield them single-handedly are forged of no human metal are alive with moonlight are translucent are crystal have a blue shimmer have a ghost light about the edges are sharper than any razor are pale emit a high pitched sound when contacting steel turn a steel sword in the hands of a man white with frost - but not luminous dance with pale blue light bite through ringmail shatter steel once it is frozen and covered with frost slice through ringmail like silk And, in Samwell I ASoS, we learn that the blades of the Others: gleam with a faint blue glow are ice blue emit a sharp screech when contacting flame sharp enough to cut the head off of a torch without swiping the torch from Grenn's hand are crystal strange pale Now, if #3 from Samwell's chapter isn't "A Song of Ice and Fire," then I'm a mummer's dragon, but let us move on. If we recall what we learned about Dawn, we find it shares a surprising number of qualities to the blades of the Others in the Prologue and Samwell chapters. Dawn long, a two-handed greatsword [shared with #1 from the Prologue] pale as milkglass [paleness is described in Prologue 9, 12, and Samwell 7] white [not "white," but "pale" coloring is described in Prologue 9 and Samwell 7] alive with light [radiance is described in Prologue 3, 6, 7, 12, and Samwell 1] forged from the heart of a fallen star [this sounds a lot like Prologue 2, and Samwell's "strange" in #6] cuts notches in steel [no correlation, aside from Waymar's shattered steel and Grenn's torch] sharp enough to cut through and Jaime's skin like silk, with just a tap [extreme sharpness is described in Prologue 8, 13, 15, and Samwell 4] as of yet unseen and unexamined by Maester Yandel [Will and Samwell were also unfamiliar with the blades they described] Maester Yandel's descriptors are also easy to correlate with the Prologue and Samwell chapters of course: it looks like no Valyrian steel they know...but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades [Prologue 2, Samwell's "strange" in #6] pale as milkglass [paleness is described in Prologue 9, 12, and Samwell 7] incredibly strong and sharp [Prologue 8, 13, 15, and durability is evident in Prologue 14, as well as withstanding Small Paul's weight and mass in the Samwell chapter] I would not ask you to prove a negative, and demonstrate for me that the two-handed greatsword Dawn is not the same material as the longswords of the Others. But, I do think that if you are going to offer a rebuttal, it should include plausible alternative substances. The requirements for such a substance are quite simple. It should: be pale white or pale as milkglass be able to emit light (even when it isn't on fire) be made of exotic materials, preferably connected to the heart of stars be able to cut steel be able to bear an edge sharp enough to part human clothing and skin like silk look like no Valyrian steel known, yet be as durable and sharp I await your ideas. I just read this as I got prepared for work. I don't have time to respond in full to your new wall of text right now but I will try to get to it tonight some time. I'm sure you will be waiting with bated breath. Briefly, having waded through thousands more words of quotes and misdirection I think that you are intentionally skewing your interpretations. You like to play up the paleness of Dawn, which is a visual quality while always downplaying or disregarding that other than a pale appearance it shares all of the qualities of Valyrian steel blades. Surely being metal must be one of those qualities? Gotta run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 11 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: And here I was thinking that it was life force or spirit energy, but yep, poop too! :-P FWIW, though, I do think baby souls may have certain advantages. If you're making something that includes a human soul, a baby soul is unformed, with no memories or specific wants of its own. So it would be more maleable, kind of like how fetal stem cells work best in medical research because they can become anything. An adult soul, I think, would be more limited in what it can do. But as you noted this soul magic stuff is beyond the scope of this thread. Will be interested to read when you have your own post ready. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 @Voice I hadnt noticed the "make substances from it" line, that's pretty great. That's closer to the scenario you're describing. I'll agree that allows for the possibility that an Others sword might be room temperature when not in the North. Pretty interesting. The analog to frozen fire as fire that isn't hot is a good one - I can see that. Ok, so you're really wrapping up all the various light scattering into one group. That makes a bit more sense. The idea of the milkglass bottles as showing us what is inside Dawn is very clever. In fact, didn't I think of that? LoL. I kinda did in an essay you haven't read yet when I was talking about the various tears in the story. But there's an interesting alternate to your scenarios: Dawn has black steel underneath the ice. Think about the poisons on the bottles as representing the black meteor metal and you'll see most of it works. Even the milk - consider Gregor's blood transformation. He drinks so much milk of the poppy it's permanently in his system, but when he is stabbing by the poison sun spear - one which is coated in poison that looks like BLACK OIL, his blood turns black. The tears of the Wall show red streaks of fire turning to black ice at sunset. We have fire milk as well as milk of the poppy. The only way Dawn is Lightbringer is if there is black meteor metal in it somehow, because original LB was made from a black meteor. I know this is entirely theoretical but I promise that it is true. Theres a cool scene at Craster's where everything is encased in ice and the morning is magical (you know the one). That bit ends with Jon snapping his black cloak to break the icy coating, and then he picks up his Valyrian steel sword. Check the wording - it's clever and makes it seem like Jon picked up Longclaw from a pile of shattered ice. There's a lot of other similar clues which might show black metal encased in ice, so I've been keeping this possibility in mind. Have you ever noticed that the prophecy of the SWMTW tracks very well with the ghost grass / Others parallel? We are on the same page with the Ghost Grass - we've talked about that a few times. Clearly a metaphor for the Others. But so is the Stallion prophecy - check it out. They even use the blades of grass = swords analog. We find that one a few places actually. At Mot Cailin there are glistening green "swards" that look solid but melt the moment you touch them. At the battle of the Green Fork in AGOT, the dew on the grass catches the morning light and looks like a passing god scattered diamonds everywhere (diamonds = white light = star in the hilt of the SOTM constellation). But yeah, check out the stallion prophecy. Can't quote because I'm on mobile. So you like the phosphorus ideas... but what about the cometary aspect of phosphorus and the SOTM story? How does a meteorite come into making Dawn if it's the Night's King's Othersword? If Dawn is made from a comet meteor, that explains all of its qualities via phosphorus. But you seem to be viewing the fallen star as a metaphor for the NK - does your "fan fiction" (haha, just kidding) have any meteors in it? BTW I do not think the comet stone is white or pale anymore. Every indication is that it was transformed during the explosion. Just FWIW. Also fwiw, you know I believe in two moons. Thing is, they were something like twins before the comet struck. Fire milk and cold milk. Both associated with silver, it seems. But there's the fire and ice dichotomy, and once the fire moon is hit, it's blood is burned black and we get black bloodstones for moon meteors. And btw, it seems one of these black fire moon meteors may be lodged inside the ice moon and or the Heart of Winter (heart of falling star = heart of winter, perhaps) which would be the source of the Starfire which seems to be contained inside the Others and the heart of winter. In Other words (heh), there is a running pattern into which the idea of Dawn having black meteor metal at its core would slide right into. If the Wall has, say, an oily or fused black stone foundation, it's more of the same. Have you figured out that the Starks are fire people yet? And Winterfell a symbol of the fire moon, with its "hot blood" coursing through its veins? An oasis of warmth surrounded by cold? With gargoyles (like Dragonstone) and populated by lords who rely on dark metals to fight the cold? And with all the rumors of dragon presence? That ain't no icy moon, baby! Now White Harbor, the white city by the "White Knife," whose lords occasionally have pale white moon faces - that's an ice moon city. Not like WF, and not like Kings Landing, with its sometimes bloody red stone, lying next to the Blackwater river and bay. White Knife, Blackwater, interesting, right? Just like the Milkwater river, with its fiery twin next to it (you know that passage right?) Anyway good comments, thanks for not being cryptic today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Also, @Voice why do you think George placed the Ghost Grass (Others metaphor) right next to Asshai? I have many ideas in this regard but I am curious what you make of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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