How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

[LmL]

And quit distorting the Tyndall effect thing - orange light shines through, not red. And that's only with transparent milkglass, not the white kind. The white kind is just white. 

[Voice]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

And I'm not attempting to refute anything – that's why said right upfront that I don't have a problem with Dawn burning red. I honestly do not have a strong take on whether or the last hero's sword was the black sword of Azor Ahai or Dawn, the white sword,  or if a sword made from a black meteor somehow became transformed white.  All of these seem possible. Since you guys are thinking about Dawn burning red, I suggested that you look at red and white things to try to gather clothes because ultimately, I'm interested in getting down to the truth of the matter.   I feel certain that Azor Ahai's  original sword was black, but there's an awful lot about broken swords and swords being re-forged,  so I am honestly not sure what color the sword was that ended up at the wall in the hands of the last hero.  when John wishes for his father's sword, that doesn't even really help – because his father sword was a black Valerian steel sword, but one which is named "Ice."  you can read that to indicate his father sword means "the original ice," which may or may not be Dawn, or it might mean Ned's sword, which is now oathkeeper, with its "waves overnight in blood" Targaryen coloring. Even Longclaw has a "pale stone" pommel, to make it more confusing. Is that a clue Jon wants a sword entirely made from pale stone? Or that "dragonsteel" requires a bit of pale stone AND a bit of black stone? Is there black steel under Dawn's white surface? Is there a black meteor under the white snow in the heart of winter? I've seen some clues in this direction. 

Anyway, don't think I'm trying to refute anything, other than the minor detail that dawn / sunrise is not consistently associated with red. As for the sword Dawn, I'm quite open to many possibilities. I give my thinking on the matter so you guys can see where I am coming from and why I say what I say, that's it. 

Totally reasonable. And I don't disagree. I was only pointing out the burning dawn quotes because there are more than a couple such instances of dawn burning red, bringing red, being red, red suns rising, etc etc.

There is more than enough evident to refute the idea that Dawn only burns white/grey/etc, without the added ingredient of blood sacrifice.

And, as I noted, Jon already accommodates the blood sacrifice component -- as his blood now feeds the "blue crystal" (see opalescent milkglass) of the Wall.

 

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Think about this for a second. If Dawn is the original Ice, that means the Starks kept the name after they lost their sword, applying the name to new swords over the centuries. Might not the same be true of the "sword of the morning?" How do we know Dawn was the original SOTM? It very well might not be. The first sword ever carried by the Daynes may be Azor Ahai's black blade called Lightbringer ("the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and it's kiss was a terrible thing.") 

See what I am getting at? 

Sure, but unlike the notion of Daynes carrying AA's black blade, we have the text describing SotMs wielding the legendary greatsword named Dawn, and Dawn alone. Unlike house Stark, there is nothing in the text to suggest their sword, or the name of their sword, are detached legacies since applied to Valyrian replicas.

 

3 hours ago, LmL said:

And quit distorting the Tyndall effect thing - orange light shines through, not red. And that's only with transparent milkglass, not the white kind. The white kind is just white. 

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!!!

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

Tyndall Effect = "alive with light" my friend. It is the other end of the Tyndall effect that gives us blue eyes, as it happens. The Others are ice bodies wrapped around Tyndall ghost light. I am not suggesting Dawn is opaque. After all, a "dawn" so obstructed would be no true dawn at all, it would be Ice, and bring only a longer night.

[White Ravens]

29 minutes ago, Voice said:

I am not suggesting Dawn is opaque.

Dawn is described as opaque in the World Book.

Quote

Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

Note that this quote does not state that Dawn is made of milkglass.  The quote states that it is similar in paleness to milkglass.  In all other respects it shares the properties of Valyrian blades which are made of metal and opaque.  Dawn is a pale metal opaque sword.  The swords wielded by the others are made of crystal so thin that they almost disappear when viewed edge-on.

[LmL]

19 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Dawn is described as opaque in the World Book.

Note that this quote does not state that Dawn is made of milkglass.  The quote states that it is similar in paleness to milkglass.  In all other respects it shares the properties of Valyrian blades which are made of metal and opaque.  Dawn is a pale metal opaque sword.  The swords wielded by the others are made of crystal so thin that they almost disappear when viewed edge-on.

yep. I'm not really following your arguments here @Voice

[Voice of the First Men]

Well, @White Ravens and@lml, it seems now you are both arguing as if Maester Yandel is infallible, and that you alone can accurately discern his description of Dawn's opacity.

Fair enough.

While I do not mind humoring the wb as canon for the purpose of discussion, I would remind the both of you that the books make no claim regarding the opacity of Dawn - and that includes the wb. Feel free to interpret Yandel's paragraph as a statement on Dawn's opacity, but in the fairness of argument, you should acknowledge that is but one interpretation.

The books describe Dawn as being like milkglass -- which is a crystalline substance that bears a wide range of opacity/translucence. The books describe both Dawn and the longswords of the Others as being alive with light. I have provided citations that demonstrate this, as well as examples of milkglass and light effects from it.

Now, when it comes down to it, the sword is probably ice. Ice. Like the Wall.

From the wiki:

According to Patterson,

“ Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. ”

And SSM:

When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from Martin answered,

“ Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. ”

------

You may choose to disregard Martin's version of the blades, but I think this leaves the door open for Dawn being forged from ice. Dawn shatters steel swords. It's like milkglass. It's alive with light.... The list goes on.

[Voice of the First Men]

And sometimes, the Wall looks opaque.

[LmL]

Several other things are also "alive with light," such as Renly's pavilion before he is murdered. Stannis's fake LB too, iirc. So it may be that "alive with light" means more than you think it does. 

Also, the wording is "as pale as milkglass." You're right that it's not specifically to be said to be opaque - although that is BY FAR the most common form of milkglass. However, the Others' swords - which are called pale swords, to be sure - are explicitly said to be transparent and crystalline, so I think it would be strange to conclude they are the same. The Others bones are pale and shiny like milkglass also, of course, and they are not described as translucent, and this right next to a description of their translucent swords. So while we can't be sure, the most logical and straightforward reading of the text would indicate Dawn is not translucent. It's not described as being like crystal or transparent. 

I do think there may well be an icy connection between Dawn and the Others, so don't think I'm against that by any means. But Dawn is not simply a sword of the Others. People touch it - it's not cold. It doesn't shatter steel - the smiling Knight had "so many notches" he had to get a new blade. It wasn't shattered. 

Nobody is ignoring what Martin said that I can see. 

Honestly, I'm not even sure what argument you are making right now. 

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Well, @White Ravens and@lml, it seems now you are both arguing as if Maester Yandel is infallible, and that you alone can accurately discern his description of Dawn's opacity.

Fair enough.

While I do not mind humoring the wb as canon for the purpose of discussion, I would remind the both of you that the books make no claim regarding the opacity of Dawn - and that includes the wb. Feel free to interpret Yandel's paragraph as a statement on Dawn's opacity, but in the fairness of argument, you should acknowledge that is but one interpretation.

The books describe Dawn as being like milkglass -- which is a crystalline substance that bears a wide range of opacity/translucence. The books describe both Dawn and the longswords of the Others as being alive with light. I have provided citations that demonstrate this, as well as examples of milkglass and light effects from it.

Now, when it comes down to it, the sword is probably ice. Ice. Like the Wall.

From the wiki:

According to Patterson,

“ Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. ”

And SSM:

When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from Martin answered,

“ Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. ”

------

You may choose to disregard Martin's version of the blades, but I think this leaves the door open for Dawn being forged from ice. Dawn shatters steel swords. It's like milkglass. It's alive with light.... The list goes on.

 

1 hour ago, Voice of the First Men said:

And sometimes, the Wall looks opaque.

But Martin does not say in that paragraph that Dawn is like milkglass.  He really doesn't.  He says that it is as pale as milkglass (a visual quality) but otherwise shares the attributes of a Valyrian steel blade, which we know to be made of metal, very light and very sharp.  The crystal swords wielded by the others are described to have the ability to shatter steel blades, true.  But that is never stated about Dawn. 

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jamie VIII:

What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

 

Dawn is sharp enough and strong enough to cut notches into the conventional steel blade wielded by the Smiling Night, but it doesn't shatter it.   And the Smiling Night comments that Dawn is white.  (Like milkglass.  Pale.)  My guess is that the Others swords shatter conventional blades because of extreme cold and magic.

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, LmL said:

I wouldn't expect Dawn to burn red unless it receives blood sacrifice.

Actually the use of blood magic results in a blue sword.  Think back to the prologue.  There's something quite ritualistic about each of the ww stabbing Ser Waymar.  The blood makes their swords glow with a pale blue light.  

#teamdawnburnsred

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 

 

Actually the use of blood magic results in a blue sword.  Think back to the prologue.  There's something quite ritualistic about each of the ww stabbing Ser Waymar.  The blood makes their swords glow with a pale blue light.  

#teamdawnburnsred

The swords glow blue before they stab him. In fact, we don't see them again in that chapter after the "it was cold butchery" line iirc. So no, I don't think we saw blood magic crate a blue sword. 

We do however have a very prominent story about a sword which is white hot and smoking until is was used for blood sacrifice, whereupon it burned red thereafter. 

[Lady Dyanna]

 

 

Actually the use of blood magic results in a blue sword.  Think back to the prologue.  There's something quite ritualistic about each of the ww stabbing Ser Waymar.  The blood makes their swords glow with a pale blue light.  

#teamdawnburnsred

The swords glow blue before they stab him. In fact, we don't see them again in that chapter after the "it was cold butchery" line iirc. So no, I don't think we saw blood magic crate a blue sword. 

We do however have a very prominent story about a sword which is white hot and smoking until is was used for blood sacrifice, whereupon it burned red thereafter. 

You are correct that we don't see the swords again after this moment, yet I would imagine that this would not be the first blood sacrifice made to their swords.

When looking at Nissa Nissa and LB, you're missing the one key difference. It wasn't just her blood that went into the blade, but also her SOUL. I think that makes all the difference.

[LmL]

28 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

The swords glow blue before they stab him. In fact, we don't see them again in that chapter after the "it was cold butchery" line iirc. So no, I don't think we saw blood magic crate a blue sword. 

We do however have a very prominent story about a sword which is white hot and smoking until is was used for blood sacrifice, whereupon it burned red thereafter. 

 

You are correct that we don't see the swords again after this moment, yet I would imagine that this would not be the first blood sacrifice made to their swords.

When looking at Nissa Nissa and LB, you're missing the one key difference. It wasn't just her blood that went into the blade, but also her SOUL. I think that makes all the difference.

That may be, but we are not shown that. You said that that we saw blood sacrifice create a blue sword, but this is not so. Killing people is also not the same as using blood sacrifice to work magic, and we are not shown any indications of the Others performing magic when they kill Waymar. They just butcher him and leave. 

Blood magic is however specifically the hallmark of LB's creation and also of Valyrian steel swords, not to mention Valyrian magic in general. We saw a captive sacrificed to the heart tree, but we don't know if that was done to work magic - it certainly might have been, but we don't know. But as for swords, the ones we have seen in person that were made with blood magic are smoky grey, almost black. The LB of legend burned red, and of course Inhave associated LB with the Bloodstone Emperor's black meteor, fwiw.  

I haven't forgotten about Nissa Nissa's soul and strength and courage going into the steel, but I'm not sure what point you are making by bringing it up. Enlighten?

The other thing you have to remember about blood and swords is the concept of fire transformation - "having the fire inside you." We are shown many times that LB and fire transformation means burning blood, boiling blood, and black blood. It happens many many times, and always in similar circumstances. All the evidence points to Nissa Nissa (and the moon she represents) as being burnt and blackened. That's why all the Azor Ahai reborn figures are associated with the color black, darkness, death, etc. Jon, Stannis, Beric, Dany, Rhaego, Rhaegar, Bloodraven, etc.  Azor Ahai reborn represents the offspring of AA and NN (or of sun and moon), and that offspring is like a shadowy, burnt dragon. The point is that according to all the symbolism I have analyzed - which is very consistent across all five books - you aren't going to get something white through fire transformation and Lightbringer stabbing. And if Dawn is to burn red, I say it will necessitate blood magic. And Dawn will no longer be white if that happens. 

Again, consider that LB was white hot and smoking before stabbing, and always red thereafter. It's the story of a sword tainted by blood magic, and the "white hot" part MIGHT be meant to refer to the technology which made Dawn. 

[Voice]

21 hours ago, LmL said:

Several other things are also "alive with light," such as Renly's pavilion before he is murdered. Stannis's fake LB too, iirc. So it may be that "alive with light" means more than you think it does.

Quite possible I'm conflating the phrase's importance, but I don't think I am. Ultimately, the Others are a different form of life, that seemingly hate the natural, warmblooded forms of life. Given the striking antagonistic dichotomy this represents, the the title of the series, I have a feeling icy blades being "alive with light" is quite meaningful.

In any case, I'm glad you brought up this bit of criticism because I think it proves my theory that Dawn = Ice (same as the Wall) and is the one true Lightbringer. Let us review the materials in ASOIAF that are "alive with light"...

A Game of Thrones - Prologue (Material is Other's Sword)

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I (Material is Crystal)

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

A Game of Thrones - Jon III (Material is The Wall)

"Best you start thinking," Noye warned him. "That, or sleep with a dagger by your bed. Now go."

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Material is Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III (Material is burning TotH)

Hallyne the pyromancer said "Hmmmmmm" and waved the torch he was holding, and the archers on the walls bent their bows and sent a dozen flaming arrows through the gaping windows.

The tower went up with a whoosh. In half a heartbeat its interior was alive with light, red, yellow, orange . . . and green, an ominous dark green, the color of bile and jade and pyromancer's piss. "The substance," the alchemists named it, but common folk called it wildfire. Fifty pots had been placed inside the Tower of the Hand, along with logs and casks of pitch and the greater part of the worldly possessions of a dwarf named Tyrion Lannister.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III (Material is Stannis' LB)

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

21 hours ago, LmL said:

Also, the wording is "as pale as milkglass." You're right that it's not specifically to be said to be opaque - although that is BY FAR the most common form of milkglass.

Not really. Translucent milkglass isn't exactly an arcane substance. And I am not suggesting that the swords and bones of Others are literally made of milkglass, or are literally crystal. Rather, it is quite clear (heh) that they are frozen, and can probably melt.

Dawn did not melt, per my theory, because it's owner (the Night's King) was never killed.

21 hours ago, LmL said:

However, the Others' swords - which are called pale swords, to be sure - are explicitly said to be transparent and crystalline, so I think it would be strange to conclude they are the same.

They are said to be all of those things, and more, I agree. Still, these are all rather inadequate descriptions in the end. GRRM told us they are in fact made of Ice, and that the Others can do things with ice that we can scarcely imagine.

But yes, I agree it is equally interesting that they are described as "pale" swords. As you have pointed out, Dawn is often described as being "pale" and having a "pale light".

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X (describing dawn)

Lannister raised his head. "Lady Stark," he said from his knees. Blood ran down one cheek from a gash across his scalp, but the pale light of dawn had put the glint of gold back in his hair. "I would offer you my sword, but I seem to have mislaid it."

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV (describing morning)

When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid.

A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter (moonlight)

In a blink her dirk was at his throat. "Take your hand away or you won't live long enough to breed a son. Now." When he did, she lowered the blade. "You want a woman, well and good. I'll put one in your bed tonight. Pretend she's me, if that will give you pleasure, but do not presume to grab at me again. I am your queen, not your wife. Remember that." Asha sheathed her dirk and left him standing there, with a fat drop of blood slowly creeping down his neck, black in the pale light of the moon.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III (Ilyn's replacement blade)

The chambers stank of rotted food, and the rushes were crawling with vermin. As Jaime entered, he almost trod upon a rat. Payne's greatsword rested on a trestle table, beside a whetstone and a greasy oilcloth. The steel was immaculate, the edge glimmering blue in the pale light, but elsewhere piles of soiled clothing were strewn about the floors, and the bits of mail and armor scattered here and there were red with rust. Jaime could not count the broken wine jars. The man cares for naught but killing, he thought, as Ser Ilyn emerged from a bedchamber that reeked of overflowing chamber pots. "His Grace bids me win back his riverlands," Jaime told him. "I would have you with me . . . if you can bear to give up all of this."

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I (moonlight)

Out in the yard, night was settling over the Dreadfort and a full moon was rising over the castle's eastern walls. Its pale light cast the shadows of the tall triangular merlons across the frozen ground, a line of sharp black teeth. The air was cold and damp and full of half-forgotten smells. The world, Reek told himself, this is what the world smells like. He did not know how long he had been down there in the dungeons, but it had to have been half a year at least. That long, or longer. What if it has been five years, or ten, or twenty? Would I even know? What if I went mad down there, and half my life is gone? But no, that was folly. It could not have been so long. The boys were still boys. If it had been ten years, they would have grown into men. He had to remember that. I must not let him drive me mad. He can take my fingers and my toes, he can put out my eyes and slice my ears off, but he cannot take my wits unless I let him.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV (dawn)

To the east, the first pale light of day suffused the sky above the river. The waters of the Rhoyne slowly went from black to blue, to match the sellsword's hair and beard. Griff got to his feet. "The others should wake soon. The deck is yours." As the nightingales fell silent, the river larks took up their song. Egrets splashed amongst the reeds and left their tracks across the sandbars. The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author's name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.

A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride (moon, stars)

No singer would ever make a song about that battle. No maester would ever write down an account for one of the Reader's beloved books. No banners flew, no warhorns moaned, no great lord called his men about him to hear his final ringing words. They fought in the predawn gloom, shadow against shadow, stumbling over roots and rocks, with mud and rotting leaves beneath their feet. The ironborn were clad in mail and salt-stained leather, the northmen in furs and hides and piney branches. The moon and stars looked down upon their struggle, their pale light filtered through the tangle of bare limbs that twisted overhead.

 

[And... we can't forget "pale blue light"...]

A Game of Thrones - Prologue (Other's translucent sword)

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue (Thistle's wighted eyes)

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

/quotes.

 

Aside from Ilyn's castle-forged steel, all of these descriptions can be explained by the Tyndall effect... which as it happens, is a property of pale, translucent milkglass. And speaking of Ilyn. He disarmed a King of Winter, bade him kneel... and took his sword. That sword then exhibited a split from its original purpose and was given a new name by the new king that cast him down.

 

21 hours ago, LmL said:

The Others bones are pale and shiny like milkglass also, of course, and they are not described as translucent, and this right next to a description of their translucent swords.

If by "right next to" you mean one was described in the Prologue of AGOT, and the other was described in Samwell I ASOS, then I agree. They're like next door neighbors! LOL

21 hours ago, LmL said:

So while we can't be sure, the most logical and straightforward reading of the text would indicate Dawn is not translucent.

And GRRM is known for his obvious revelations, right?

As you say, we can't be sure. In certainty lies the swindler.

21 hours ago, LmL said:

It's not described as being like crystal or transparent. 

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

21 hours ago, LmL said:

I do think there may well be an icy connection between Dawn and the Others, so don't think I'm against that by any means. But Dawn is not simply a sword of the Others. People touch it - it's not cold.

Just as with the obsidian dagger, it likely resumed a more normal temperature once it ceased being in close proximity to the Others.

The Others themselves are the source of the cold, ser. Not their swords.

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

 

21 hours ago, LmL said:

It doesn't shatter steel - the smiling Knight had "so many notches" he had to get a new blade. It wasn't shattered. 

Semantics, but true. Ser Arthur Dayne was not an Other.

Still, the fact that Dawn broke a steel blade should raise an eyebrow.

21 hours ago, LmL said:

Nobody is ignoring what Martin said that I can see. 

Honestly, I'm not even sure what argument you are making right now. 

Maybe now you do?

 

20 hours ago, White Ravens said:

But Martin does not say in that paragraph that Dawn is like milkglass.  He really doesn't.  He says that it is as pale as milkglass (a visual quality) but otherwise shares the attributes of a Valyrian steel blade, which we know to be made of metal, very light and very sharp.  The crystal swords wielded by the others are described to have the ability to shatter steel blades, true.  But that is never stated about Dawn. 

 

 

Dawn is sharp enough and strong enough to cut notches into the conventional steel blade wielded by the Smiling Night, but it doesn't shatter it.   And the Smiling Night comments that Dawn is white.  (Like milkglass.  Pale.)  My guess is that the Others swords shatter conventional blades because of extreme cold and magic.

Semantics again, but do enjoy semantic debates. Let us look at all 5 instances in which "milkglass" appears in the books (including the worldbook). See if you can spot the pattern...

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III (Others' swords metaphor)

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV (bottles that are opaque?)

The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood . . .

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I (an Other's bones)

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive (Dawn)

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

 

16 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Actually the use of blood magic results in a blue sword.  Think back to the prologue.  There's something quite ritualistic about each of the ww stabbing Ser Waymar.  The blood makes their swords glow with a pale blue light.  

#teamdawnburnsred

Interesting angle.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

The swords glow blue before they stab him. In fact, we don't see them again in that chapter after the "it was cold butchery" line iirc. So no, I don't think we saw blood magic crate a blue sword. 

We do however have a very prominent story about a sword which is white hot and smoking until is was used for blood sacrifice, whereupon it burned red thereafter. 

Indeed. Yet that story seems borrowed from a Westerosi one.

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

You are correct that we don't see the swords again after this moment, yet I would imagine that this would not be the first blood sacrifice made to their swords.

When looking at Nissa Nissa and LB, you're missing the one key difference. It wasn't just her blood that went into the blade, but also her SOUL. I think that makes all the difference.

&:

2 hours ago, LmL said:

The other thing you have to remember about blood and swords is the concept of fire transformation - "having the fire inside you."

(snip)

Again, consider that LB was white hot and smoking before stabbing, and always red thereafter. It's the story of a sword tainted by blood magic, and the "white hot" part MIGHT be meant to refer to the technology which made Dawn. 

I think the blood sacrifice is a moot point. Jon has been ritualistically sacrificed "for the Watch" at the foot of the translucent blue crystal Wall that was built by Bran the Builder.

 

Dawn could simply be like the Wall. Some dawns are cloudy, after all. And some are clear.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Outside the day was bright and cloudless. The sun had returned to the sky after a fortnight's absence, and to the south the Wall rose blue-white and glittering. There was a saying Jon had heard from the older men at Castle Black: the Wall has more moods than Mad King Aerys, they'd say, or sometimes, the Wall has more moods than a woman. On cloudy days it looked to be white rock. On moonless nights it was as black as coal. In snowstorms it seemed carved of snow. But on days like this, there was no mistaking it for anything but ice. On days like this the Wall shimmered bright as a septon's crystal, every crack and crevasse limned by sunlight, as frozen rainbows danced and died behind translucent ripples. On days like this the Wall was beautiful.

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Blood magic is however specifically the hallmark of LB's creation and also of Valyrian steel swords, not to mention Valyrian magic in general. We saw a captive sacrificed to the heart tree, but we don't know if that was done to work magic - it certainly might have been, but we don't know. But as for swords, the ones we have seen in person that were made with blood magic are smoky grey, almost black. The LB of legend burned red, and of course Inhave associated LB with the Bloodstone Emperor's black meteor, fwiw.

But is it truly "blood" sacrifice that is at work? No one knows just exactly how Valyrian Steel was originally forged. If we look at NN there is the added ingredient of her soul. If we look at the the song of The Dornish Man's Wife as being told from the point of a Valyrian Steel blade, it seems for that type of sentience that his soul or spirit must be embedded in the blade.

 

4 hours ago, LmL said:

I haven't forgotten about Nissa Nissa's soul and strength and courage going into the steel, but I'm not sure what point you are making by bringing it up. Enlighten?

I'm not sure how well I'll be able to explain this, as I don't have it completely formulated in my own mind, but several of the uses of magic seem to have an opposing force or type. I think that the opposing force for blood magic might be soul or wind magic. Think of how many times the use of blood magic results in favorable winds. If this is the case, then a sword fueled with blood and a sword fueled with spirit/soul would display different and most probably opposing characteristics.

 

4 hours ago, LmL said:

The other thing you have to remember about blood and swords is the concept of fire transformation - "having the fire inside you." We are shown many times that LB and fire transformation means burning blood, boiling blood, and black blood. It happens many many times, and always in similar circumstances. All the evidence points to Nissa Nissa (and the moon she represents) as being burnt and blackened. That's why all the Azor Ahai reborn figures are associated with the color black, darkness, death, etc. Jon, Stannis, Beric, Dany, Rhaego, Rhaegar, Bloodraven, etc.  Azor Ahai reborn represents the offspring of AA and NN (or of sun and moon), and that offspring is like a shadowy, burnt dragon. The point is that according to all the symbolism I have analyzed - which is very consistent across all five books - you aren't going to get something white through fire transformation and Lightbringer stabbing. And if Dawn is to burn red, I say it will necessitate blood magic. And Dawn will no longer be white if that happens. 

Well, yes, the effect of fire magic would be cold dark shadows, which would account for the blackness of the blade and fire. Why it appears to drink the light. But the end result is the effect of two different magic types, each with separate end results. Soul and fire combining to create shadowed blood.

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:50 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

Am wondering, though, about "payment" vs. creating a pack. I know you focus on Ghost's wandering-off-ness. Which is a point. But Ghost still thinks of his pack. As does Jon. The importance of the pack (Ceasar Milan would be proud)--Lyanna, separated from her family and so alone--if she's behind the direwolf mama in some way, I could see her wanting Jon to have a pack.

 

Nice job @Voice!  I like it.  Sly mentioned an idea I had so I thought I'd bring it up here.  Perhaps the Dayne's got Ice bc they were able to do something that the Starks couldn't.  If the KoW was brother to the NK he may have been unwilling/unable/afraid of killing his own brother.  Ya know, kinslaying in all.  No matter what good it does the realm (think Kingslayer and the reputation he has and the true story of why he had to).  The Dayne's stepped up and ended it.  In return the Starks gave up the sword thinking that were not worthy of it.  That brings me to our current story...

Rickon is wild.  He may just end up being a villain given his abandonment, temperament and time in the North.  If he's brought back to bind the North and isn't what he's expected to be, it could be a situation where Jon has to break a "law" for the good of the realm, again.  Cat's worst nightmare, Jon proves he's worthy and gets the sword, but ends up shunned bc he's a kinslayer. 

@Sly Wren - Quote didn't go where I intended but I freaking LOVE this.  And if this was originally someone else's idea, correct me and I'll make it right.  I loose my place in these forums sometimes. 

The idea of Lyanna as the Momma wolf is spectacular.  She had the wolf blood.  It's also interesting that Momma Wolf was killed by a stag.  Robert obviously didn't kill Lyanna, but emotionally speaking it would have killed her for her Rhaeger to die and he did so at the hands (hooves) of a stag.  All conjecture, but fun and NEW stuff.

[White Ravens]

5 hours ago, Voice said:

 

 

 

Semantics again, but do enjoy semantic debates. Let us look at all 5 instances in which "milkglass" appears in the books (including the worldbook). See if you can spot the pattern...

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III (Others' swords metaphor)

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV (bottles that are opaque?)

The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood . . .

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I (an Other's bones)

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive (Dawn)

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

 

 

 

 

Wall of text again.  But do enjoy wall of text debates.  This latest post of yours blew me away how many times I had to swipe the screen to get all the way to the bottom.  That part where you gave us every example of the words "dawn", "pale" and "light" appearing in one paragraph was a complete waste of your time and that of us poor readers.  Of course descriptions of early morning are going to have those three words in them.  But even more frustrating is that there is only one paragraph where "Dawn" (the sword) appears with "pale" and "light".  Let's have a look at it again:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Material is Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The text states that "Dawn is as pale as milkglass".   You stated that "Dawn is like milkglass", which text doesn't state.  I called you on your misinterpretation and then you stated it wrong again. 

I think that GRRM is simply trying to establish that the appearance of Dawn is unusually pale for a metal blade, possibly for the simple reason of distinguishing its appearance from that of the notably dark but otherwise similar Valyrian steel blades.  And since there is magic involved in this world it may even be that the blade is somewhat translucent.  But I would like to point out that this quote is taken from a memory or a dream that Ned had of that fateful day at the Tower of Joy.  It is a scene viewed through the romanticized fogs of time and memory. Ned remembers his companions as only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.  Before you go congratulating yourself about me giving some ground on whether Dawn is completely opaque I want point out that there is a big difference between translucent and transparent.  The Others' blades are described as crystal so thin that it almost disappears when viewed edge on.  Others' swords are magical in nature and completely unlike those wielded by man.  If the Sword of the Morning has been wielding an Others sword for several millennia  wouldn't the descriptions of Dawn be more remarkable than "a greatsword that is pale as milk glass and alive with light"?  The Smiling Knight says "It's that white sword of yours I want," but I would think he'd say something more like "It's that impossibly thin, transparent sword of your I want".

 

 

 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

But is it truly "blood" sacrifice that is at work? No one knows just exactly how Valyrian Steel was originally forged.

The evidence is pretty abundant that it involved blood sacrifice. It would take too long to go into it, but think it's very likely. Also remember what Marwyn says about Valyrian magic - it is all rooted in blood and fire. The dragonbinder horn certainly is, and the candles are associated with blood as well. TWOIAF gives information about the Qohoric smiths sacrificing babies in an attempt to re-create Valyrain steel. You should check it out sometime, it's a great book.

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

If we look at NN there is the added ingredient of her soul. If we look at the the song of The Dornish Man's Wife as being told from the point of a Valyrian Steel blade, it seems for that type of sentience that his soul or spirit must be embedded in the blade.

This is a strange interpretation which I do not agree with. The swords brothers are all around him? That doesn't make sense. What makes a lot more sense is that the Dornishman's wife IS the black steel blade. The singer tasted it alright, that's why he's dying. Tons of stuff in the story about wedding the sword or the axe. Regardless if this is the case or not, I have never found Voice's idea about this convincing at all. 

However I am not against blades which drink souls. We know of two that do: Lightbringer, and the foul black weapons of the ancient Ironborn that are said to drink the souls of those they slew which we hear of in TWOIAF. BLACK weapons, it should be noted. 

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I'm not sure how well I'll be able to explain this, as I don't have it completely formulated in my own mind, but several of the uses of magic seem to have an opposing force or type. I think that the opposing force for blood magic might be soul or wind magic. Think of how many times the use of blood magic results in favorable winds. If this is the case, then a sword fueled with blood and a sword fueled with spirit/soul would display different and most probably opposing characteristics.

Lightbringer contains both NN's blood and soul, though. So if should and blood magic oppose... I'm not sure how that helps, because LB took both from NN. 

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well, yes, the effect of fire magic would be cold dark shadows, which would account for the blackness of the blade and fire. Why it appears to drink the light. But the end result is the effect of two different magic types, each with separate end results. Soul and fire combining to create shadowed blood.

I'm not sure I follow, but it sounds interesting. One thing I will say about things which drink the light is they are pretty consistently associated with dragons and fire magic. Seems very much like an opposite to being "alive with light." That's one of the reasons I tend to buy the premise that Dawn is the original Ice (an idea I had before I ever met Voice, btw). I just don't think it's a straight Others sword, for all the reasons I listed. I do buy the idea of it containing some element of ice magic however, and I agree that the Wall and Dawn share a lot of symbolism. 

 

[LmL]

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Quite possible I'm conflating the phrase's importance, but I don't think I am. Ultimately, the Others are a different form of life, that seemingly hate the natural, warmblooded forms of life. Given the striking antagonistic dichotomy this represents, the the title of the series, I have a feeling icy blades being "alive with light" is quite meaningful.

In any case, I'm glad you brought up this bit of criticism because I think it proves my theory that Dawn = Ice (same as the Wall) and is the one true Lightbringer. Let us review the materials in ASOIAF that are "alive with light"...

A Game of Thrones - Prologue (Material is Other's Sword)

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I (Material is Crystal)

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

A Game of Thrones - Jon III (Material is The Wall)

"Best you start thinking," Noye warned him. "That, or sleep with a dagger by your bed. Now go."

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Material is Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III (Material is burning TotH)

Hallyne the pyromancer said "Hmmmmmm" and waved the torch he was holding, and the archers on the walls bent their bows and sent a dozen flaming arrows through the gaping windows.

The tower went up with a whoosh. In half a heartbeat its interior was alive with light, red, yellow, orange . . . and green, an ominous dark green, the color of bile and jade and pyromancer's piss. "The substance," the alchemists named it, but common folk called it wildfire. Fifty pots had been placed inside the Tower of the Hand, along with logs and casks of pitch and the greater part of the worldly possessions of a dwarf named Tyrion Lannister.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III (Material is Stannis' LB)

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

You conveniently forgot the one which doesn't match - Renly's tent. And again, you're not clearly spelling out whatever your point is. And the burning tower of the hand doesn't fit, either. No tyndall effect there, just fire. Stannis's sword is a glamour, no tyndall or ice there. You know I tend to think Dawn = original Ice is likely, but beyond that... what are you saying here?

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Not really. Translucent milkglass isn't exactly an arcane substance.

 

Do a google image search on milkglass and you will see almost entirely opaque white milkglass. That's the most well known version. And even the translucent milkglass does not look like crystal. And crystals do not use tyndall effect. I think these differences are important - they indicate that Dawn is not simply an Other's icy sword. Made from one? Perhaps. But I think Dawn is something different, something more. And you've given no reason to completely disregard the meteor story. You're trying to say Dawn is pure ice, but I think this is a stretch, and not well supported. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

And I am not suggesting that the swords and bones of Others are literally made of milkglass, or are literally crystal. Rather, it is quite clear (heh) that they are frozen, and can probably melt.

Dawn did not melt, per my theory, because it's owner (the Night's King) was never killed.

Yeah ok, that's a reasonable speculation.. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

They are said to be all of those things, and more, I agree. Still, these are all rather inadequate descriptions in the end. GRRM told us they are in fact made of Ice, and that the Others can do things with ice that we can scarcely imagine.

But yes, I agree it is equally interesting that they are described as "pale" swords. As you have pointed out, Dawn is often described as being "pale" and having a "pale light".

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X (describing dawn)

Lannister raised his head. "Lady Stark," he said from his knees. Blood ran down one cheek from a gash across his scalp, but the pale light of dawn had put the glint of gold back in his hair. "I would offer you my sword, but I seem to have mislaid it."

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV (describing morning)

When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid.

A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter (moonlight)

In a blink her dirk was at his throat. "Take your hand away or you won't live long enough to breed a son. Now." When he did, she lowered the blade. "You want a woman, well and good. I'll put one in your bed tonight. Pretend she's me, if that will give you pleasure, but do not presume to grab at me again. I am your queen, not your wife. Remember that." Asha sheathed her dirk and left him standing there, with a fat drop of blood slowly creeping down his neck, black in the pale light of the moon.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III (Ilyn's replacement blade)

The chambers stank of rotted food, and the rushes were crawling with vermin. As Jaime entered, he almost trod upon a rat. Payne's greatsword rested on a trestle table, beside a whetstone and a greasy oilcloth. The steel was immaculate, the edge glimmering blue in the pale light, but elsewhere piles of soiled clothing were strewn about the floors, and the bits of mail and armor scattered here and there were red with rust. Jaime could not count the broken wine jars. The man cares for naught but killing, he thought, as Ser Ilyn emerged from a bedchamber that reeked of overflowing chamber pots. "His Grace bids me win back his riverlands," Jaime told him. "I would have you with me . . . if you can bear to give up all of this."

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I (moonlight)

Out in the yard, night was settling over the Dreadfort and a full moon was rising over the castle's eastern walls. Its pale light cast the shadows of the tall triangular merlons across the frozen ground, a line of sharp black teeth. The air was cold and damp and full of half-forgotten smells. The world, Reek told himself, this is what the world smells like. He did not know how long he had been down there in the dungeons, but it had to have been half a year at least. That long, or longer. What if it has been five years, or ten, or twenty? Would I even know? What if I went mad down there, and half my life is gone? But no, that was folly. It could not have been so long. The boys were still boys. If it had been ten years, they would have grown into men. He had to remember that. I must not let him drive me mad. He can take my fingers and my toes, he can put out my eyes and slice my ears off, but he cannot take my wits unless I let him.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV (dawn)

To the east, the first pale light of day suffused the sky above the river. The waters of the Rhoyne slowly went from black to blue, to match the sellsword's hair and beard. Griff got to his feet. "The others should wake soon. The deck is yours." As the nightingales fell silent, the river larks took up their song. Egrets splashed amongst the reeds and left their tracks across the sandbars. The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author's name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.

A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride (moon, stars)

No singer would ever make a song about that battle. No maester would ever write down an account for one of the Reader's beloved books. No banners flew, no warhorns moaned, no great lord called his men about him to hear his final ringing words. They fought in the predawn gloom, shadow against shadow, stumbling over roots and rocks, with mud and rotting leaves beneath their feet. The ironborn were clad in mail and salt-stained leather, the northmen in furs and hides and piney branches. The moon and stars looked down upon their struggle, their pale light filtered through the tangle of bare limbs that twisted overhead.

 

[And... we can't forget "pale blue light"...]

A Game of Thrones - Prologue (Other's translucent sword)

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue (Thistle's wighted eyes)

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

/quotes.

 

Aside from Ilyn's castle-forged steel, all of these descriptions can be explained by the Tyndall effect...

 

WTH are you talking about? Most of these involved no Tyndall effect whatsoever. This is just confusing. The only ones that might are the ones describing the sword Dawn, the Others's swords, and Thistles eyes. The others are just pale sunlight or moonlight. 

Sunlight and blue skies are not Tyndall effect:

Quote

On a day when the sky is overcast, the sunlight passes through the turbid layer of the clouds, resulting in scattered, diffuse light on the ground. This does not exhibit Tyndall scattering because the cloud droplets are larger than the wavelength of light and scatter all colors approximately equally. On a day when the sky is cloud-free, the sky's color is blue in consequence of light scattering, but this is not termed Tyndall scattering (instead it is Rayleigh scattering) because the scattering particles are the molecules of the air, which are much smaller than the wavelength of the light.[5] On occasion, the term Tyndall effect is incorrectly applied to light scattering by large (macroscopic) dust particles in the air.

So ugh, yeah, most of those are not Tyndall. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

If by "right next to" you mean one was described in the Prologue of AGOT, and the other was described in Samwell I ASOS, then I agree. They're like next door neighbors! LOL

Oops, my bad. Got those two sections confused. Of course, you're not claiming the Other's sword in ASOS is different than the crystalline ones in the Prologue, right?

7 hours ago, Voice said:

And GRRM is known for his obvious revelations, right?

As you say, we can't be sure. In certainty lies the swindler.

I guess I just think your case is not well supported, imho.

7 hours ago, Voice said:

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

Still not crystalline or transparent, not even sure why you quoted this (again). 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Just as with the obsidian dagger, it likely resumed a more normal temperature once it ceased being in close proximity to the Others.

Maybe. But the obsidian dagger was only cold because it seems to have absorbed or drank something from the Other. It didn't get cold in Sam's hand when he was near the other - only after melting it, and only for a moment. I follow your speculation on Dawn not being cold when it is not in the hands of an Other - that makes sense - but the dragonglass doesn't support your argument. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

The Others themselves are the source of the cold, ser. Not their swords.

Makes sense. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

 

Semantics, but true. Ser Arthur Dayne was not an Other.

Still, the fact that Dawn broke a steel blade should raise an eyebrow.

Wrong. It didn't break the sword, that's the point - it notched it, because it is superior steel. No breaking, no shattering. Again, maybe that happens when an Other holds it. But let's be accurate to the text - Dawn has never broken a sword that we are told about. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Maybe now you do?

 

Semantics again, but do enjoy semantic debates. Let us look at all 5 instances in which "milkglass" appears in the books (including the worldbook). See if you can spot the pattern...

...or see if you can stop being so damn cryptic and just say what you mean.

7 hours ago, Voice said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III (Others' swords metaphor)

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X (Dawn)

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV (bottles that are opaque?)

The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood . . .

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I (an Other's bones)

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive (Dawn)

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

And your point is....?

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Interesting angle.

Indeed. Yet that story seems borrowed from a Westerosi one.

Only to you, my man. Do you have ANY mechanism for a story from Westeros making its way to Asshai, becoming known as a legend from Asshai, and then appearing in 5 other forms in the local area (Hyrkoon, Neferion, etc)? Makes a lot more sense that Azor Ahai is from Asshai, and came to Westeros with his sword, eventually giving rise to the Last Hero story. After all, we have the fused stone on Battle Isle which PROVES that dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age.  I mean - it's actual, indisputable proof, set in fused stone. 

This is your huge blind spot - anything fire related just doesn't exist to you. And no, don't throw the same at me, because I consider ice very much. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

&:

I think the blood sacrifice is a moot point. Jon has been ritualistically sacrificed "for the Watch" at the foot of the translucent blue crystal Wall that was built by Bran the Builder.

That is not going to set a sword on fire which is 6,000 miles away. If the sword Dawn lights on fire with red fire, I promise you that it will only happen after it is coated in blood. The sword. Dawn. Covered in blood. Otherwise, no red flame. That is my official position, and it is supported by the text. The burning red sword of legend relies on blood magic. It's the key part of the story - the sacrifice of his wife. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

Dawn could simply be like the Wall. Some dawns are cloudy, after all. And some are clear.

Yep, I agree with that. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Outside the day was bright and cloudless. The sun had returned to the sky after a fortnight's absence, and to the south the Wall rose blue-white and glittering. There was a saying Jon had heard from the older men at Castle Black: the Wall has more moods than Mad King Aerys, they'd say, or sometimes, the Wall has more moods than a woman. On cloudy days it looked to be white rock. On moonless nights it was as black as coal. In snowstorms it seemed carved of snow. But on days like this, there was no mistaking it for anything but ice. On days like this the Wall shimmered bright as a septon's crystal, every crack and crevasse limned by sunlight, as frozen rainbows danced and died behind translucent ripples. On days like this the Wall was beautiful.

Agree that Dawn and the Wall are symbolically linked, no argument here. But Dawn's appearance never changes that we are told of, while the Wall conspicuously does so. 

7 hours ago, Voice said:

which as it happens, is a property of pale, translucent milkglass. And speaking of Ilyn. He disarmed a King of Winter, bade him kneel... and took his sword. That sword then exhibited a split from its original purpose and was given a new name by the new king that cast him down.

That's a nice echo! Keep in mind that Ned's sword was sullied with Ned's blood, and the next time we see it, at Blackwater, it is again noted to be bloody. When next it appears, it has waves of blood and night in the steel. Arya compares the RED comet, the bleeding star, to Ice, covered in blood, while Gendry sees it as red hot from the forge. Red - the color of blood and flame and sunsets. Burning red swords always need blood. That's the precedent set by the books. 

[LmL]

BTW, @Voice, I am not saying that the Others swords cannot be milkglass, only that we'd need new information to come to that conclusion. I just don't think a human could even handle a sword of the Others. I mean, on one hand you are saying that the Others bring the cold, and their swords are only cold when they hold them. But this contradicts Martin's SSM stating they are made of ice. If they are made of ice, then they are cold, all the time, or else they would melt. Your theory calls for a sword made of magical ice which is so cold it shatters steel, but which also ceases being cold without melting... that's room temperature ice which doesn't melt. But it used to be so cold it snaps metal. I don't think that is logically consistent, my man. 

[LmL]

As long as we are playing "spot the loosely scientific concept in the fantasy novel," I'd like you to introduce you to my friend Phosphours, also called Eosphorus.  Eosphorus is the Greek name for Venus when it appears as the Morningstar (Hesperus is the Evenstar position name). The Latin equivalent for Eosphorus (phosphorus) is "Lucifer." And if I have taught anyone anything, it is that Lucifer means Lightbringer. Lucifer and Eosphorus are the same word - one is Latin, on e is Greek. They both mean the same things:

• light-bringer
• light-bearer
• dawn-bringer
• son of the morning
• shining one

Some other fun facts about phosphorus, this light bringer stone:

• two kinds - white and red phosphorus
• white phosphorus emits a feint glow when exposed to oxygen (but not red), and this glow has a slight glimmer of green or blue
• burns very brightly with pale flame
• is necessary for the first chain reactions of life on earth 
• scientists think it first arrived on earth via COMET
• it can be added to steel to make it SHARPER
• "phosphorescence" means "glowing," and Martin used this word for the Ash River at Asshai
• a main source of phosphorus for ancient man was bone ash - the same thing used to make milkglass opaque
• the glow of WP is actually not technically "phosphorescence," but rather chemiluminescence (glowing due to a cold chemical reaction)

So while Tyndall scattering is interesting, the word Tyndal is not used in the books (seriously George, why no House Tyndal or squire Tyndall, something? Tindall? Tyndael? Tyaendaelae? Tyndwyn? But no...). Lightbringer is, and phosphorescence is, however, and given that Phosphorus means Lightbringer, burns white, arrived on comets, is associated with life, makes steel sharper, glows because of a cold reaction, is made with bone ash... I'd say phosphorus is a good candidate if we are looking for quasi-scientific ideas behind the origins of Dawn. 

Obviously, I do not find the ideas of Dawn being original Ice AND having been made from a comet to be in conflict. Comets are frozen rock, after all. In fact, a comet might have everything we need for advanced  glowing white steel. Comet rock is mostly iron, but can contain trace elements needed to refine iron into steel, such as nickel and phosphorus. They might have just needed to pop that baby in the oven (or the cold forge) and hammer away. Dip it into a puddle of melted Other or Ice Dragon to temper it, and presto. 

BTW, it should be noted that White Phosphorus can be used to make horrible radioactive burnbing projectiles, and the injuries from this are horrific. The US used in Fallujah and other places in Iraq (these were war crimes, fwiw). If you google "white phosphorus," you may seen images of horrific burn victims, many of them children - fair warning. It's probably also worth considering this side of WP, especially since Dawn "came cruel, a dagger of light" that one time when Cat dreamed of Robb playing with a wooden sword.