Bluetiger Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 It seems that to give geographical distinction between realms, George used names... For example: Rickard commonly in the North Richard in the Reach Rycherd in the Stormlands Jon in the Vale John in the south Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: geographical distinction There's plenty of that for sure.. Just not language-wise.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 56 minutes ago, Chicxulub said: Another point to consider is that there DOES seem to be some regional differentiation in dialect, though for simplicity's sake, it doesn't make it into text.  There's a Tyrion chapter in ADWD where he's talking about making up his story for Hugor, and he says how he has to be some Westerman's bastard, because he sounds like a highborn Westerman.  For the most part, Tyrion's speech patterns don't read any differently than any other educated character, so that implies a regional dialect that GRRM simply didn't write in for ease of reading. Actually that is variation between classes.. It is to be expected that the highborn should speak differently to smallfolk.. Not having that, along with the regional variation would be very very bad.. Although I don't really think we get much speech from a lot of smallfolk to really see the difference.. Ps: I think the Westerman part is probably connected to accent which is something you cannot perceive in a book.. All highborn talk in the same way, and there's the implication that their accent varies slightly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said: There probably are many dialects among the smallfolk but the nobility talks in their own way. So it depends on social standing and location. The common tongue is probably a mix of andal and first men with a dash valyrian/ rhoynar/ other. In dorne maybe more rhoynar influence, in the vale more andal, in the reach and westerlands more first men/ old tongue similarities. There shouldn't be just "dialects", there should be distinct languages. In our world, French and Spanish aren't merely "Latin spoken with a slightly different accent". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Maybe. But 4000 years living with the Andals, 300 under the Targaryen rule, isolated from the Wildling, the Children and the giants are sufficient to explain the change of language. There is also the maesters system, insuring a common language for all. Either the common folk follow their Lords' manner of speaking. Or they speak local dialects too, but use the common tongue when addressing strangers. And if "necessary", GRRM just "translated" their words for convenience. Do you think this "common tongue" is English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said: Maybe. But 4000 years living with the Andals, 300 under the Targaryen rule, isolated from the Wildling, the Children and the giants are sufficient to explain the change of language. There is also the maesters system, insuring a common language for all. Either the common folk follow their Lords' manner of speaking. Or they speak local dialects too, but use the common tongue when addressing strangers. And if "necessary", GRRM just "translated" their words for convenience. Do you think this "common tongue" is English? But that's the thing, they didn't live with the Andals but north of them, in a separate Kingdom, under a different King.. There's no logical reason why they should just drop their language If no one forced them to.. About the maesters: is it specified If maesters were present in the North before the Targs? Because If they were, then that's kind of weird since it would mean that the North had ties with Oldtown (at the time, a city in a different kingdom).. But it isn't entirely improbable.. They could just have a serious need for good healers etc.. That's why I said that Martin should make an effort to explain some of this in the future.. It is explainable enough If he tries a bit.. Ps: for the purposes of this thread we have to consider the Common Tongue as a version of English yes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 28 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said: But that's the thing, they didn't live with the Andals but north of them, in a separate Kingdom, under a different King.. There's no logical reason why they should just drop their language If no one forced them to.. About the maesters: is it specified If maesters were present in the North before the Targs? Because If they were, then that's kind of weird since it would mean that the North had ties with Oldtown (at the time, a city in a different kingdom).. But it isn't entirely improbable.. They could just have a serious need for good healers etc.. That's why I said that Martin should make an effort to explain some of this in the future.. It is explainable enough If he tries a bit.. Ps: for the purposes of this thread we have to consider the Common Tongue as a version of English yes.. My understanding, but I may be wrong, is that the North before the Targaryens had their own kings, had wars from time to time with their neighbors, but in between, had peace and trade with the South. Much more than with the Wildlings. So it is not necessarily strange if they adopted their language. Particularly if the Old Tongue was not written, except on gravestones. Ps: For the English, I would rather believe GRRM books are translations from a completely different language.Therefore the translation would also adapt for local dialects specificity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said: My understanding, but I may be wrong, is that the North before the Targaryens had their own kings, had wars from time to time with their neighbors, but in between, had peace and trade with the South. Much more than with the Wildlings. So it is not necessarily strange if they adopted their language. Particularly if the Old Tongue was not written, except on gravestones. I think it is rather strange because it hasn't taken place historically and we know that Martin draws inspiration from history.. And having peace and trade with a country/kingdom isn't a very good reason for, not only adopting another language, but also completely forgetting your own.. Whether it was written or not is again not really relevant.. I still believe it is something he'll have to tackle at some point.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShirt47 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 3 hours ago, Nicklas Black said: It's just quite uncommon for Martin to "simplify" things and it kind of bothers me.. A somewhat "historically" accurate explanation in the GRRMarillion would be nice.. Not that uncommon. GRRM's aristocracy is very simple. There aren't Barons, Dukes, Earls, Counts, Viscounts, Marquis etc Just nobles and commers. Their land holdings tend to be one unified block of land in one region. Not particularly historically accurate. But trying to write a system that would be more like the actual system in medieval europe would have made for a rather tedious book. Also I'm sure Jon recognised a few words of the Old Tongue when dealing with the Wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 1 minute ago, RedShirt47 said: Also I'm sure Jon recognised a few words of the Old Tongue when dealing with the Wildlings. The wiki has only 4 Old Tongue terms in its page.. : Magnar - means Lord Skagos - means stone sygerrik - meaning deceiver woh dak nag gram - means little squirrel people (The giants's name the for children of the forest) Couple of them must be what Jon recognised.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShirt47 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 11 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said: I think it is rather strange because it hasn't taken place historically and we know that Martin draws inspiration from history.. And having peace and trade with a country/kingdom isn't a very good reason for, not only adopting another language, but also completely forgetting your own.. Whether it was written or not is again not really relevant.. I still believe it is something he'll have to tackle at some point.. Scotland (a reasonably good inspiration for The North - particularly beyond the wall) generally speaks English these days. Although there are still some communities (especially on the western isles) who speak Scot's Gaelic. And Scotland wasn't conquered by England and forced to adopted English. They joined into a United Kingdom about 300 years ago. So the language changed due to cultural and trade reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 14 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said: Scotland (a reasonably good inspiration for The North - particularly beyond the wall) generally speaks English these days. Although there are still some communities (especially on the western isles) who speak Scot's Gaelic. And Scotland wasn't conquered by England and forced to adopted English. They joined into a United Kingdom about 300 years ago. So the language changed due to cultural and trade reasons. Yes but the Kingdoms were united under one monarch at some point, which is true for Westeros after the Targs, but the Northerners spoke the Common Tongue before that.. Also, cultural imperialism is something that certainly played its part.. (in Scotland) But the North was a pretty strong Kingdom to be receptive to that.. And like you said, Celtic languages are still spoken in the U.K and Ireland.. In our case the Old Tongue is completely gone from the North.. At least some speakers in some areas would be much more realistic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Even though it's not supported by the text I'm just going to assume the Northern smallfolk predominately speak the Old tongue and the Northern highborn are generally bilingual and it's just translated for the readers benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 This is something that has bothered me as well. even if the language was not written (for what ever reason) in the early days one would believe that as time went on that someone would have had the notion of preserving it by writing it down. The only thing I can think of is that The Northern kings/lords allowed their Maesters to supplant the Old Tongue with the Common Tongue. Can someone check the WoIaF book to see if the Maesters were created before or after the Andals landed? if before then it makes no sense for them to not have preserved the Old Tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Well... If we are to have the North as somewhat analogous to Scotland (for the sake of this example at least, there seems to be some Slavic influence there as well) keep in mind that the Scots/Picts also had different laws and language to those of the south. At one point though their nobility made a decided effort to step away from the Tanistry laws (in Scotland's case a sort of elective system)Â and adopt laws of the southern kingdoms, supposedly to stop the practice of having dozens of claimants to the throne. Not to mention there were many continental noble families that migrated to Scotland and took places of importance in the government/social order (I can't remember if this was a deliberate policy of Scotland's monarchy, but it always surprised me how many important nobles in the Kingdom's history came from other regions). In the case of the North we know that they adopted the practice of employing Maesters even before the conquest (the Starks surrendered their crown, but they brought four maesters in their company), that they brought in foreign nobility to strengthen their power (Manderlys and White Harbor), and we have the implication that they adopted their language as a result (possibly because of the Maesters). The exact details of the process are ultimately irrelevant though, the implication is much the same as Scotland. For reasons of practicality they copied systems of governance to strengthen their realm from external threats, but as a result had a shift in culture and language it seems. The Northmen may balk and point out their differences of the many Southron regions, but they have far more in common with them than they do the Wildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 5 hours ago, Minstral said: In the case of the North we know that they adopted the practice of employing Maesters even before the conquest (the Starks surrendered their crown, but they brought four maesters in their company), that they brought in foreign nobility to strengthen their power (Manderlys and White Harbor), and we have the implication that they adopted their language as a result (possibly because of the Maesters). The exact details of the process are ultimately irrelevant though, the implication is much the same as Scotland. For reasons of practicality they copied systems of governance to strengthen their realm from external threats, but as a result had a shift in culture and language it seems. The Northmen may balk and point out their differences of the many Southron regions, but they have far more in common with them than they do the Wildings. Seems like a very plausible explanation.. But the fact that the Old Tongue is entirely absent, in an area were it was the native language for thousands of years, is still very unrealistic.. You would expect a least a small number of elder speakers in areas like, Bay of Ice and mountains below, Bear Island, Last Hearth and Skagos.. Ps: I don't think that the Mountain clans would be the kind of people to have maesters.. Yet they still speak the Common Tongue like the rest of the North.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 If we get to see Skagos at some point due to Rickon, then we'll probably have a clearer view on the matter.. An island with a noble house called House Magnar must surely provide some insight.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 5 hours ago, Nicklas Black said: Seems like a very plausible explanation.. But the fact that the Old Tongue is entirely absent, in an area were it was the native language for thousands of years, is still very unrealistic.. You would expect a least a small number of elder speakers in areas like, Bay of Ice and mountains below, Bear Island, Last Hearth and Skagos.. Ps: I don't think that the Mountain clans would be the kind of people to have maesters.. Yet they still speak the Common Tongue like the rest of the North.. Actually it is more unrealistic for a language to remain the same for thousands of years rather than see it actually recorded. The English world celebrates its old literary works in the form of Shakespear, and yet classical English makes no sense in conversation. In fact the world is filled with more dead languages than it is with those that are old. Either way, I find it stranger that half of the people beyond the Wall speak the Common Tongue. The only explanation I have for that is that the NW is responsible for this. Through trade and/or conquest by deserters they brought their language with them. Also keep in mind that GRRM plays very strongly with a characters perspective, and no character has had the opportunity or the need to go find enclaves of Old Tongue speakers in the North. Areas in the North where people speak the old tongue and/or other languages might still exist. In the middle ages there were plenty of different languages within each perspective kingdom. Its just that when we began to move into modern times that nation states began to streamline teaching the national language at the expense of a local language that we don't see more local examples in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklas Black Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, Minstral said: Actually it is more unrealistic for a language to remain the same for thousands of years rather than see it actually recorded. The English world celebrates its old literary works in the form of Shakespear, and yet classical English makes no sense in conversation. In fact the world is filled with more dead languages than it is with those that are old. Depends on what you consider as a dead language.. Latin is a "dead" language but it still has many descendants that are spoken nowadays.. Truly dead languages are some those in the Americas for example.. Exterminated population so no speakers to speak any form of the language.. I don't expect the Northerners to speak Proto-Old Tongue, but rather a modern descendant of it.. 20 minutes ago, Minstral said: Areas in the North where people speak the old tongue and/or other languages might still exist. The point is that they should logically exist.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireAndBlood. Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 37 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said: The point is that they should logically exist.. And they probably do? Just because we haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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