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8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No way, someone once told me that if I were interested in foreshadowing that this book wouldn't be for me.

This isn't foreshadowing as such - it is (also) a realistic depiction of a very inbred family which essentially ensures that certain traits come up again and again and again over the generations.

In that sense, the mismatched eyes of Alyssa Targaryen, Shiera Seastar, and Tyrion Lannister cannot be overestimated. Alyssa's broken nose seems to foreshadow Tyrion's later injury (who would be her direct descendant), just as Rogar Baratheon's suppressed ambitions, his desire to fight Maegor in single combat, his fondness for a battle axe strong enough to split a dragon's skull all can be seen as reflections/versions of the characters and desires of later Baratheons.

I never argue against foreshadowing as such - but it is one thing to look for clues the author intentionally put in a work and quite another to see parallels were are none intended.

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@chrisdaw

How can't you see any foreshadowing in GRRM's History of the 7K monarchy when you base much of your "Tyrion and Sansa will be King and Queen" theory - which I also believe in and in fairness your theory is brilliantly put out:

[when you base much of your theory] on GRRM's supposed inspiration from History of the English monarchy? By the way, Richard III (your "Tyrion") was a Stark York, not a Lannister Lancaster... But what allowed Richard III to claim the Throne in the first place was his Targaryen Plantagenet ancestry! And if Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, then Jon is also his nephew...

Anyway, if you are right in your assumption, Tyrion will need some sort of legitimacy to sit the IT in the end and because of his disastrous image, only his riding a Dragon will give him that (his future riding of Viserion seems to be foreshadowed in the ASoIaF books). When he does,  most people (readers and Westerosi) will then assume he is a Dragonseed, and the most realistic candidate for his Targaryen bloodline is Aerys II, nonwithstanding GRRM making it explicit or not in the books.

Edited by Jô Maltese
Wrong link

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Tyrion will have to be legitimized and adopted into the Targaryen family by Daenerys for him to actually have a decent claim and the chance to become a proper power player in his own right - or at least a powerful leader at Dany's court (and a similar thing would have be done for Jon Snow, either by Aegon or by Dany, if he is going to make anything politically relevant with his Targaryen parentage thing). And a dragon alone will help but could just as well make him as 'popular' as Hugh and Ulf. Especially in light of the ugly things he did. If it were confirmed/made plausible that Tyrion did not murder his biological father he can actually hope to regain some of his standing in Westeros. Without that, I'd say that his chances to become Lord of Casterly Rock are doomed from the start. Even if he were to take the Rock in some way he would be destined to go down the road of Dalton Greyjoy in a fortnight. The murderer of Tywin Lannister is not likely going to ever truly win the allegiance of the people living at Casterly Rock.

Unless Selmy actually knows a little bit more about Joanna and Aerys II - and there are such hints in ADwD when he starts telling Dany about Joanna and her father - then Tyrion could basically be nothing more than a dragonseed of unknown parentage even if he becomes a dragonrider. Neither he nor Dany nor anyone in Meereen (or Westeros, for that matter) seem to have any inclination that Tywin Lannister might not be Tyrion's father.

Tyrion would have had as much reason to assume that Aerys II is his true father as he would have that his great-grandmother Rohanne had some dalliance with Aegon V leading to the conception of Tytos Lannister (which is certainly not impossible). If that were the source of Tyrion's dragonlord blood then this would not exactly give a good claim to the Iron Throne.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

I don't agree with you my Lord.

To start with, Tyrion's bastardy is very much a recurrent theme in the series, so if he rides a dragon the most likely answer will be that he is really a bastard after all, and then people will connect the dots: Tyrion, the many Westerland people who know about Tywin's poor consideration of Tyrion - and even maybe amongst them those who suspected the "foul play" but never dared to voice their thoughts (The Rains of Castamere come to mind of course, but actually F&B give a better example of what may happen to the tongues of those who question the legitimacy of a prince), all the noble families who know about Aerys early affair with Joanna and can remember the Tourney of 272 AC... And many readers. And then of course he ceases to be a kinslayer in the eyes of the Gods and the people - and I am not sure Tywin will be missed by many (Westerlanders or not) anyway.

Secondly, I am not convinced that the IT will need to be claimed in the end. Somehow I feel that Tyrion will eventually be recognised as the best (remaining?) option to rule Westeros by a kind of Great Council, after his key role during the War against the Others (Half-man! Half-man!) and the disqualification somehow (death? exile? refusal?) of more obvious candidates (Dany, Jon or even Jaimie). And being married to Sansa Stark is not going to harm his chances either. 

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10 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

@chrisdaw

How can't you see any foreshadowing in GRRM's History of the 7K monarchy when you base much of your "Tyrion and Sansa will be King and Queen" theory - which I also believe in and in fairness your theory is brilliantly put out:

I didn't say that. I said Tyrion being foreshadowed by a historic Targ is not in itself evidence of Tyrion being a Targ, because GRRM foreshadows lots of non-Targs with historical Targs.

The eyes are its own thing.

I think Tyrion is Aerys' and Joanna's, that he will ride Viserion and will become king. Aegon II and Viserys II are also his parallels and Richard III isn't so much a theory of mine anymore as it is a fact after the

Spoiler

Mercy sample chapter with the Bloody Hand.

 

Edited by chrisdaw

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21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No way, someone once told me that if I were interested in foreshadowing that this book wouldn't be for me.

?????

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11 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

I don't agree with you my Lord.

Oh, I don't care who sits the Iron Throne or not. I'm just saying that nobody is going to support any claims Tyrion might or might not have unless there is some tangible evidence backing up those claims aside from some dragon.

Chances that the staff of servants, stewards, men-at-arms, maesters, household knights, etc. serving at Casterly Rock would favor the ugly, filthy, kinslaying dwarf to any of Tywin's other relations are completely without basis. Tywin may not have been loved, but he was respected, and he rose Casterly Rock and House Lannister out of the mud in which it was fallen during Tytos' misrule. That was nearly the end of that house.

Tyrion can, perhaps, conquer Casterly Rock, but he can never hope to keep it or live a happy life as its lord. That's the same as one of Ned's children murdering Ned and then later being welcomed as the new Lord of Winterfell.

The idea that anyone would ever offer Tyrion the rule over the Seven Kingdoms also sounds pretty ridiculous to me. This isn't a world where people care about 'the inner beauty' of people - Tyrion could be a kind and honest and good person (which he is not) but he would still be reviled because of how he looks. And while he might greatly contribute to the victory over the Others as an adviser coming up with smart strategies (and perhaps even as a dragonrider) I don't think any of that will make him popular with many people - some smart guys will recognize his worth, but that is likely going to be just a handful.

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On 12/11/2018 at 6:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

This isn't foreshadowing as such - it is (also) a realistic depiction of a very inbred family which essentially ensures that certain traits come up again and again and again over the generations.

In that sense, the mismatched eyes of Alyssa Targaryen, Shiera Seastar, and Tyrion Lannister cannot be overestimated. Alyssa's broken nose seems to foreshadow Tyrion's later injury (who would be her direct descendant), just as Rogar Baratheon's suppressed ambitions, his desire to fight Maegor in single combat, his fondness for a battle axe strong enough to split a dragon's skull all can be seen as reflections/versions of the characters and desires of later Baratheons.

I never argue against foreshadowing as such - but it is one thing to look for clues the author intentionally put in a work and quite another to see parallels were are none intended.

Hi!!!

I completely agree with this Blood of the Dragon reference. That whole paragraph about Alyssa screamed TYRION to me :)

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1 minute ago, Jô Maltese said:

 Hi @Suzanna Stormborn , Happy New Year! (And to all the AJTers by the way).

Hi @Jô Maltese  :)

Good to see you guys.  I was waiting to finish Blood of the Dragon before I got back on.

 

Happy New Year!!!!

2019 = The Year of Winds of Winter (hopefully)

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,I believe there is a stronger case to be made that The Lannister Twins are really Aery's bastards. Hell they even love incest fucking each other. Targaryen trait primo uno out of many other clues. 

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

,I believe there is a stronger case to be made that The Lannister Twins are really Aery's bastards. Hell they even love incest fucking each other. Targaryen trait primo uno out of many other clues. 

There is no such case to be made because we have sufficient evidence to believe that Joanna Lannister was not with the king around the time the twins were conceived. She no longer lived at court at the time and there is no indication that King Aerys II was at Casterly Rock at the time of the conception, or Joanna at KL for a visit - unlike the time around Tyrion was likely conceived. At this time - in 272 AC - there the anniversary of Aerys II tenth year on the Iron Throne was celebrated by a tourney at KL which Lady Joanna attended.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no such case to be made because we have sufficient evidence to believe that Joanna Lannister was not with the king around the time the twins were conceived. She no longer lived at court at the time and there is no indication that King Aerys II was at Casterly Rock at the time of the conception, or Joanna at KL for a visit - unlike the time around Tyrion was likely conceived. At this time - in 272 AC - there the anniversary of Aerys II tenth year on the Iron Throne was celebrated by a tourney at KL which Lady Joanna attended.

Yes this and the fact that Aerys was notably very jealous of the 'golden twins' born to Joanna And Tywin while him and his wife were having child bearing issues.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no such case to be made because we have sufficient evidence to believe that Joanna Lannister was not with the king around the time the twins were conceived. She no longer lived at court at the time and there is no indication that King Aerys II was at Casterly Rock at the time of the conception, or Joanna at KL for a visit - unlike the time around Tyrion was likely conceived. At this time - in 272 AC - there the anniversary of Aerys II tenth year on the Iron Throne was celebrated by a tourney at KL which Lady Joanna attended.

Unless GRRM actually finishes the series and addresses this or not, if any of his kids are the Mad King's, to me, it is Jaime and Cersei. I think the imp is his and is his only child. 

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GRRM going out of his way to put Joanna and Aerys in the same place with a big blow up at the time of Tyrion's conception and nothing for Jaime's and Cersei's was him addressing it.

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8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Unless GRRM actually finishes the series and addresses this or not, if any of his kids are the Mad King's, to me, it is Jaime and Cersei. I think the imp is his and is his only child. 

You can certainly think that, but the basis you have for thinking that is about as good as the claim that Aerys II is also the father of all of Rickard Stark's children as well as of Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure Tully. George has never commented on that, either, and there are basically no hints given that Cersei and Jaime could be Aerys' children.

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13 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Unless GRRM actually finishes the series and addresses this or not, if any of his kids are the Mad King's, to me, it is Jaime and Cersei. I think the imp is his and is his only child. 

We can safely dismiss the idea that King Aerys II Targaryen fathered Cersei and Jaime, since Aerys and Joanna were on opposite coasts of Westeros when the twins were conceived some time in 265-266 AC.

Tywin and Joanna wed at the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing in 263 AC:

Quote

In 263 AC, after a year as the King's Hand, Ser Tywin married his beautiful young cousin Joanna Lannister, who had come to King's Landing in 259 AC for the coronation of King Jaehaerys II and remained thereafter as a lady in-waiting to Princess (later Queen) Rhaella. The bride and groom had known each other since they were children together at Casterly Rock. Though Tywin Lannister was not a man given to public display, it is said that his love for his lady wife was deep and long-abiding. "Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor," Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, "and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!" (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

Quote

Ser Tywin was but twenty, the youngest man ever to serve as Hand, but the manner in which he had dealt with the rising of the Reynes and Tarbecks had made him well respected, even feared, throughout the Seven Kingdoms. His cousin Lady Joanna, the daughter of Lord Tytos's late brother Ser Jason, was already in King's Landing; she had been serving as a lady in-waiting and companion to Rhaella since 259 AC. She and Ser Tywin were married a year after he became Hand of the King in a lavish ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor, with King Aerys himself presiding over the wedding feast and bedding. In 266 AC, Lady Joanna gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl. Meanwhile, Ser Tywin's brother Ser Kevan had also wed, taking to bride the daughter of Ser Harys Swyft of Cornfield, who had once been given to him as a hostage for her father's debts. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

Even if we were to assume, for the sake of argument, that Aerys took Joanna's maidenhead the night of King Jaehaerys II's coronation in 259 AC, that Joanna enjoyed a brief reign as Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne in 262 AC, and/or that the unwonted liberties Aery is reported to have taken during Joanna's bedding in 263 AC somehow included sexual intercourse...

We know that Rhaella dismissed Joanna from her service shortly after her wedding to Tywin in 263 AC, and that Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock, and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter:

Quote

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings."

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

When Joanna gave birth to Cersei and Jaime at Casterly Rock a few years later in 266 AC, Aerys indicates it had been some time since he had seen Joanna, and we have nothing placing Aerys and Joanna in the same place between Joanna's departure from King's Landing in around 263 AC and Aerys's journey to the Westerlands the year after the twins were born in 267 AC:

Quote

What Tywin Lannister made of this is not recorded, but in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, "healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold." This birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his Hand. "I appear to have married the wrong woman," His Grace was reported to have said, when informed of the happy event. Nonetheless, he sent each child its weight in gold as a nameday gift and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel. "And bring their mother, too, for it has been too long since I gazed upon that fair face," he insisted. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

Aerys accompanied Tywin to the Westerlands the year after the birth of the twins after the death of Lord Tytos Lannister in 267 AC, but there is no indication of contact between Aerys and Joanna in the years during which Joanna must have conceived Cersei and Jaime in 265-266 AC:

Quote

The following year, 267 AC, saw the death of Lord Tytos Lannister at the age of six-andforty. Reportedly, his lordship's heart burst as he was climbing a steep turnpike stair to the bedchambers of his mistress. With his passing, Ser Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West. When he returned to the west to attend his father's funeral and set the westerlands in order, King Aerys decided to accompany him. Though His Grace left the queen behind in King's Landing (Her Grace was pregnant with the child who proved to be the stillborn Princess Shaena), he took their eight-year-old son Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, and more than half the court. For the better part of the next year, the Seven Kingdoms were ruled from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, where both the king and his Hand were in residence. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

It is not until 272 AC, the year prior to the year in which Tyrion was born in 273 AC, that Aerys and Joanna can be said to have been in the same place prior to the birth of a child of Joanna:

Quote

At the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys's tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister brought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court. The king (very much in his cups) asked her if giving suck to them had "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." The question greatly amused Lord Tywin's rivals, who were always pleased to see the Hand slighted or made mock of, but Lady Joanna was humiliated. Tywin Lannister attempted to return his chain of office the next morning, but the king refused to accept his resignation. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

GRRM could have placed Aerys and Joanna in the same place for some event between 265-266 AC, as he chose to place Aerys and Joanna in the same place in 272 AC, in the year before Tyrion was born in 273 AC, but he didn't, and there is as of now nothing in either the main series or the other books that places Aerys and Joanna together when the twins were conceived.

It remains to be seen whether the tidbit placing Aerys and Joanna in the same place in 272 AC will be a red herring, or will turn out to have been a hint that Aerys fathered Tyrion, but at the very least it kept the theory alive by presenting a time and place when Aerys could have plausible conceived a child with Joanna.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It remains to be seen whether the tidbit placing Aerys and Joanna in the same place in 272 AC will be a red herring, or will turn out to have been a hint that Aerys fathered Tyrion, but at the very least it kept the theory alive by presenting a time and place when Aerys could have plausible conceived a child with Joanna.

This didn't just keep the theory alive, it is one of the few actual hints that there might be something to this. Prior to TWoIaF people tossing around this idea were pretty much in 'Wouldn't it be cool if Tyrion was Aerys' son' territory. There was pretty much no positive evidence at all.

ADwD gave us the motive - Aerys' interest in Joanna Lannister - but a motive doesn't mean anything if we don't know if something came of that. TWoIaF elaborated on the motive and added the opportunity.

Motive we also have for this Cersei/Jaime idea. But there is no opportunity there, nor does it seem likely we are ever going to get some.

Still, Yandel's ramblings do not constitute 'evidence' against the possibility that Aerys II is the father of the twins. TWoIaF does not pretend to give a complete and thorough account on the whereabouts of Aerys II and Lady Joanna in the 260s - and even if it pretended to do that, Yandel is just a historian and could have insufficient data/be simply wrong.

But the likelihood that Aerys II is the father of Cersei/Jaime is scarcely higher that he is the father of, say, the Stark or Tully children. After all, the man had many a mistress and we have no idea where Minisa Whent or Lyarra Stark were back when they were still alive.

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Joanna was said to seldom visit the red keep, not that she shunned it all together...

I took Rhaellas actions to mean that she wanted her friend safe from her husbands grasping hands and so it would make sense that Joanna would try to avoid the capital. But Tywin's occupation there would have most definitely required the occasional visit. If  on one of said visits, the expected happens ( Aerys, bitter and angry over Rhaellas failed pregnancies, decides to finally claim Joanna) then Cersei and Jamies conception is a definite possibility imo. Aerys may have been jealous not necessarily of the twins but rather of Joanna's fertility.

 In my view, Tyrion is a walking case of the human-human chimera phenomenon. Mismatched eyes and hair etc. Hes a dragon with three parents and a true half man, half bastard, half true born. Grrm seems to point to both Tyrion being Tywin's 'writ small' while also being a son of the dragon via symbolism as well as nods to his ancestors whose footsteps he may follow into ala Visaerys ll.

Tyrion is the legacy of both Tywin and Aerys, whos own lives were greatly affected by one another. 

Edited by Aemon Darkbrother
Grammer

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Tyrion will shape up to be another Aerys, not Tywin, Jamie is Tywin in the making.

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