Jump to content
UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.9

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

To me it adds complexity to see this other side of the monster that is Tywin. I don't think AJT woobifies him or anything like that. It also isn't hard for me to believe that a good woman like Joanna would have loved Tywin. I think of how much Genna and Kevan love their brother and how they seem like reasonably decent people. It just doesn't feel like a stretch to me that there were two sides to Tywin's personality. He always had the ruthless SOB aspect but I think he also had a loving side that died when Joanna did. Gerion and Genna both more or less confirm this.  

Very good points.  Genna is a smart cookie, and Kevin isn't an idiot either.  They know Tywin does some monstrous things but they still believe in him strongly.  Genna doesn't see Tywin as perfect of course - in fact she points out that Jaime is much softer than Tywin and Tyrion is his "true son" in terms of personality.  But as far as we know she is fond of Tyrion and Tywin despite this.  

16 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I'm starting to wonder if book readers will get the information before Tyrion does. 

I've been thinking about the significance of having Barristan as a POV and more and more I'm leaning towards the idea of him knowing about the rape of Joanna. IIRC Barristan always seemed to be away during a lot of the Mad King's acts. My knowledge on the books is shaky here so I'm happy to be corrected but am I right in thinking that Barristan wasn't there for the murders of Brandon and Rickard or for that flashback when Jaime is remembering how he's told by Darry (?) that they can't protect Aerys from raping Rhaella. 

I think Barristan was there for Brandon and Rickard's deaths.  

I don't think we know if Barristan was a court for the rape of Rhaella that resulted in Daenerys' conception.  But probably there weren't more than 2 direct witnesses to that - not more than 2 are needed to protect the king's door - the others would have had other duties, like being with Rhaegar or Elia and the kids.

16 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

My thought is, Barristan can't have missed everything, right? (Everything when it comes to personally witnessing the worst of Aerys's evil behavior.) What if this was one of the times where he stood by and felt the way that Jaime later feels when he's told he can't protect Rhaella? I feel like this could be a way for us to get the reveal that wouldn't seem too clunky. I can see Barristan reflecting back on a situation where he's wondering if he properly honored his knightly vows.   

This would be an interesting way to do it.  I do think it would be intriguing if Tyrion never really figures it out, but the reader has the information to know.  Though I suspect if Tyrion does ride a dragon (somehow) he'll probably guess that he has Targ blood from somewhere...  And if Barristan and Tyrion meet, he might help him connect the dots.  I wonder how they would od it in the show, given Barristan and Tyrion never met.

16 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

It reminds me too of kings in the past who would arrange splendid marriages for their mistresses so that they could keep them at court or would bump up the cuckolded husband's title or position. In this case though I think that Aerys was deluded or willfully blind if he thought Tywin would be open to that sort of relationship.

Well, deluded and willfully blind are pretty consistent with Aerys' characterization. :)

Interestingly the current thread of Johanna Lannister by norwaywolf adds some detail to the timeline.  In fact Tywin had been hand to Aerys for no more than a year by the time he married Johanna.  So Aerys' unrequited desire for Johanna would still have been fresh.  Its possible he even suggested the match. Though I tend to think Tywin and Johanna were already promised at this point, we don't really know.  

16 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

 I would love it if somebody could dig up the quote where Tyrion is talking to Tywin and Tywin is admitting that Elia didn't have to die. I know that it's commonly thought that Tywin was lying to Tyrion during this conversation but now I want to reread it because I'm struggling to understand why Tywin would bother to lie.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that Tywin seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think that he ordered the rape and murder of Elia or am I completely misremembering this? Why would he care what Tyrion thinks about something like that when he knows that Tyrion knows better than anyone Tywin isn't above ordering rape and murder? 

It's possible he was lying but also possible he wasn't.  I dont' have tiem to look up the quite but the word Tywin uses wrt to Elia IIRC is "regrettable".  But remember that Tywin hates Tyrion and doesn't really trust him further than he can throw him (bad dwarf tossing joke goes here).  I really don't think he would tell him the truth if the truth was that he had ordered Gregor to rape someone.  To me, Tywin's type of cold vengeance is strongly consistent with him either 1) telling gregor to do whatever he wanted to Elia or 2) knowing Gregor would rape and kill Elia but and not telling him specifically NOT to.   Two is probably more likely but They are practically morally equivalent, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I agree. Another reason I'm convinced it was rape is because Aerys was already sliding into the madness at this point. I also think of how we already know that Aerys was a rapist and that he got aroused by fire and violence and by hurting Rhaella. I'm just having trouble imagining this guy all of a sudden having a consensual encounter with Joanna especially shortly after going out of his way to humiliate her at court with that remark. 

His first violent act came in 274 AC (his reaction to Jaehaerys's death), and he seems to have regretted what he did deeply. His true madness, though, appears to have been mostly in response to his half a year of captivity during the Defiance of Duskendale in 277 AC. Raping Rhaella and being aroused by fire, were behaviours only seen during the last years of his life.

 

17 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I'm starting to wonder if book readers will get the information before Tyrion does. 

I've been thinking about the significance of having Barristan as a POV and more and more I'm leaning towards the idea of him knowing about the rape of Joanna. IIRC Barristan always seemed to be away during a lot of the Mad King's acts. My knowledge on the books is shaky here so I'm happy to be corrected but am I right in thinking that Barristan wasn't there for the murders of Brandon and Rickard or for that flashback when Jaime is remembering how he's told by Darry (?) that they can't protect Aerys from raping Rhaella. 

Well, IIRC, GRRM said that Barristan was added to the story as a POV to solve the Meereenese knot.

That doesn't take away, however, that Barristan was a member of Aerys's court, and that he will be able to give us insight in whatever all happened there during those 21 years.

Jaime and Gerolg Hightower were definitly present for the deaths of Rickard and Brandon:

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

But it seems likely that the other KG knights were there as well (with the exception of Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, who were last seen with Rhaegar).

The conversation between Jaime and Darry takes place more than a year later.

 

17 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I also think that one of the strongest examples of Tywin's love for Joanna is the fact that he never remarried for political gain when he easily could have. 

Possibly. But also, Tywin had all those years still been hoping and wanting Jaime to inherit Casterly Rock, and a new marriage would most likely have meant new heirs, which would endanger Jaime's claim.

 

17 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

My guess is that the tunnel to sneak in women was built after Joanna's death and not before. 

Also, since I'm on the subject of Tywin using whores, I'm convinced that Marei is one of his bastards. The dates add up since she would have been conceived and born back when he was still Hand and this would have all happened after Joanna's death. It's a small detail and I'm not saying that it's a clue or that it proves anything but I'm not getting the impression that Tywin is the one with the fertility issues. Aerys and Rhaella were the ones producing "monstrosities" and Tyrion's appearance sounds like one of the monstrosities from TWOIAF only he managed to live. Jaime, Cersei, and Marei are all healthy and attractive. I don't know how old Donnel Hill is but he's another bastard that I suspect is Tywin's. 

Actually, Aerys and Rhaella have absolutely no mention of deformed children whatsoever. They had multiple stillbirths, miscarriages, and deaths in the cradle, but no deformities are ever mentioned for them. 

 

17 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I would love it if somebody could dig up the quote where Tyrion is talking to Tywin and Tywin is admitting that Elia didn't have to die. I know that it's commonly thought that Tywin was lying to Tyrion during this conversation but now I want to reread it because I'm struggling to understand why Tywin would bother to lie.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that Tywin seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think that he ordered the rape and murder of Elia or am I completely misremembering this? Why would he care what Tyrion thinks about something like that when he knows that Tyrion knows better than anyone Tywin isn't above ordering rape and murder? 

Here's the passage:

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”
“Then why did the Mountain kill her?”
“Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape... even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of... two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him."

I do think that Tywin is not telling Tyrion the complete truth here. Remember, Tywin admits here that he knew that Gregor already had a reputation of sorts from battles, and ordering rape is something we know Tywin has done in the past (Tysha). Also, an important detail from TWOIAF, is that it wasn't just anyone of the Lannister men who was sent into the Red Keep during the Sack:

A handpicked cadre of men raced to the Red Keep to storm its walls and seek out King Aerys, so that justice might be done.

Elia might not have meant much to the battle concerning the throne, without her children left alive, but for Tywin, personally, she represented an insult. It had been Cersei who had been meant to marry Rhaegar, not Elia, whom Tywin hadn't even deemed to be good enough for his own golden heir. And with that knowledge, the Princess of Dorne had arranged a betrothal between Elia and Rhaegar after all.

Why lie to Tyrion about it? 

“No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know."

That was Tywin's approach for the Red Wedding. Why not use the same approach here? Tywin needs Tyrion's help in handling Oberyn, and thus confirms the truth of a well-known rumour, as well as well as admits the truth about a dead man, about whom he has just admitted that he will lie, once asked about it.

“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?”
“I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Interestingly the current thread of Johanna Lannister by norwaywolf adds some detail to the timeline.  In fact Tywin had been hand to Aerys for no more than a year by the time he married Johanna.  So Aerys' unrequited desire for Johanna would still have been fresh.  Its possible he even suggested the match. Though I tend to think Tywin and Johanna were already promised at this point, we don't really know.  

Joanna and Tywin were already betrothed by late 260 AC/early 261 AC. When they were first betrothed, is unknown. 

Tywin Lannister's own father Lord Tytos had once imprisoned an unruly bannerman, Lord Tarbeck. The redoubtable Lady Tarbeck responded by capturing three Lannisters, including young Stafford, whose sister was betrothed to cousin Tywin. 

An event which TWOIAF places around late 260 AC or early 261 AC (It was "not quite a year" until late 261 AC, when the Reyne's and Tarbecks were killed).

I doubt Tytos would have betrothed Jason's daughter without Jason's permission while Jason was still alive (he died in 260 AC on Bloodstone), and considering the fact that Tywin had been away at war for nearly a year before, it seems likely that the betrothal dated from before the war, though again, we cannot say when exactly the betrothal was made.

But Aerys would not have had anything to say about such a betrothal during his father's reign, so he, at least, was not involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

It's possible he was lying but also possible he wasn't.  I dont' have tiem to look up the quite but the word Tywin uses wrt to Elia IIRC is "regrettable".  But remember that Tywin hates Tyrion and doesn't really trust him further than he can throw him (bad dwarf tossing joke goes here).  I really don't think he would tell him the truth if the truth was that he had ordered Gregor to rape someone.  To me, Tywin's type of cold vengeance is strongly consistent with him either 1) telling gregor to do whatever he wanted to Elia or 2) knowing Gregor would rape and kill Elia but and not telling him specifically NOT to.   Two is probably more likely but They are practically morally equivalent, IMO.

I agree that option two is more likely but I still think there's a third option in that Tywin was telling the truth when he says that he didn't mention her at all. In his own words Elia was "nothing" so to me it isn't a stretch that he was more concerned about them making sure that the children were killed. It's morally reprehensible with any of the three options. 

Regarding your point in bold, now that I'm reading the quotes that Rhaenys has posted (Thanks, Rhaenys!) we see that Tywin trusts Tyrion to lie about Amory Lorch being the one who was responsible. I don't think he thinks that Tyrion would tell anyone about him ordering the rape and murder of Elia because there wouldn't really be any benefit in that for Tyrion. 

28 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

His first violent act came in 274 AC (his reaction to Jaehaerys's death), and he seems to have regretted what he did deeply. His true madness, though, appears to have been mostly in response to his half a year of captivity during the Defiance of Duskendale in 277 AC. Raping Rhaella and being aroused by fire, were behaviours only seen during the last years of his life.

Thanks again for the quotes.

His first violent act might have been in 274 but IMO he was already showing signs of being a disturbed and deeply sick person. By 270 he's keeping Rhaella confined in Maegor's holdfast and is insisting that septas share her bed. To me a "normal" person isn't going to take liberties at the bedding ceremony of their best friend. Joanna died in 273 so to me that isn't so long from 274 to think that he was still behaving like the promising guy he was in his early youth. Stuff like the incident with the Iron Bank in 267 is proof to me that this guy already isn't playing with a full deck.

Quote

Possibly. But also, Tywin had all those years still been hoping and wanting Jaime to inherit Casterly Rock, and a new marriage would most likely have meant new heirs, which would endanger Jaime's claim.

Tywin is already dealing with this issue though in the form of Tyrion. If he has it in the back of his mind that Jaime will be able to be released from the Kingsguard one day then Jaime would still come before any subsequent children Tywin might have. Not only that, Tywin could have made a union to a woman who was past childbearing age.

Quote

Actually, Aerys and Rhaella have absolutely no mention of deformed children whatsoever. They had multiple stillbirths, miscarriages, and deaths in the cradle, but no deformities are ever mentioned for them. 

Fair enough. I still got the impression that Aerys and Rhaella were dealing with a situation that was similar to what some of their ancestors suffered.

Quote

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”
“Then why did the Mountain kill her?”
“Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape... even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of... two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him."

I'm fascinated with this entire exchange because I'm convinced that Tywin is being 100% truthful. He didn't have to mention Elia at all. He brings up the fact that it was all done too brutally. I can see him not commenting on her at all because he viewed her as nothing. 

His choice of words for the second line in bold is interesting. "Even you". It's like he's saying 'Even you [who knows better than anyone what I'm capable of]'. Why does he hope that Tyrion wouldn't think him capable of giving that command? The way he trails off after saying 'The rape...' I'm not getting the impression of a guy who gave that command.

Quote

Elia might not have meant much to the battle concerning the throne, without her children left alive, but for Tywin, personally, she represented an insult.

Tywin likes nothing more than to teach sharp lessons. If this was all about paying back and insult and a debt then why not tell Tyrion that? 'See, Tyrion? No family in Westeros is ever going to get away with insulting our House.' There's nothing that Tyrion can gain by going around telling people that Tywin gave the order and even if he did, I can't see how that would have hurt Tywin at this point in the story since a lot of people suspect it anyway.

Quote

Why lie to Tyrion about it? 

“No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know."

That was Tywin's approach for the Red Wedding. Why not use the same approach here? Tywin needs Tyrion's help in handling Oberyn, and thus confirms the truth of a well-known rumour, as well as well as admits the truth about a dead man, about whom he has just admitted that he will lie, once asked about it.

I feel like Tywin was giving more details than Tyrion needed to know and that's what made the conversation seem truthful. Plus, he's trusting Tyrion when he's telling him that he plans on lying. To me this all suggests that they were having a truthful conversation and the readers get just the barest hint of Tywin feeling some tiny drop of guilt.

The comments about two year old Rhaenys are chilling. Again, Tywin is scumbag no matter what.

This all raises a question that I've never considered before. Are there any times when we know for sure that Tywin has lied to Tyrion? I'm not talking about something like where he tells Tyrion that the plan was to have him sent to the Wall (which sounded like total nonsense to me) but a conversation where he straight up lies about the facts. I typically get the impression that Tywin is blunt and truthful with Tyrion and am guessing that this conversation was no exception. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

Thanks again for the quotes.

No problem! :) 

Quote

His first violent act might have been in 274 but IMO he was already showing signs of being a disturbed and deeply sick person. By 270 he's keeping Rhaella confined in Maegor's holdfast and is insisting that septas share her bed. To me a "normal" person isn't going to take liberties at the bedding ceremony of their best friend. Joanna died in 273 so to me that isn't so long from 274 to think that he was still behaving like the promising guy he was in his early youth. Stuff like the incident with the Iron Bank in 267 is proof to me that this guy already isn't playing with a full deck.

Hmm.. I see a difference between ensuring that your wife is faithful by having a companion with her at all times, and burning people alive.

 

But it's not only important to look at when Aerys did something crazy, but also why. Before Jaehaerys's death, Aerys had never had anyone tortured, but it was the third death of his young children that drove him to such an act.

Aerys and Rhaella did not want to marry, but followed their father's order despite that. They married young, and quite quickly had a son (Rhaegar), who was born during what must have been an extremely traumatic event, for which Aerys was doutbless present. Look at the date of the next reported pregnancy, which unfortunately led to a miscarriage: 263 AC. Aerys and Rhaella apparently did not attempt to become pregnant during their father's reign. Why was that? Due to the trauma caused by Summerhal? But in 262 AC, Aerys became King, and it would have been necessary to have "a spare", instead of only one heir. Thus, it seems to be the case, that from that point on, Aerys and Rhaella began to try and become pregnant again.

Now, look at the names of the children. In 267 AC, Princess Shaena was stillborn. Prince Daeron was born in 269 AC, an unknown child (gender unknown) in 270 AC, Aegon in 272 AC, and Jaehaerys in 274 AC. What I find so interesting about this naming pattern, is that they are so very clearly named after Aerys's direct family members. It is not strange for Targaryens to name their children after family members, sure, but for Aerys and Rhaella, it seems to be a bit different.

I'd say that Shaena was named for Aerys' and Rhaella's mother, Shaera, and that the fact that Shaena was not named Shaera, but a slight variation on that name, could be an indication that their mother was still alive at that point in time.

The boys, Daeron, Aegon, and Jaehaerys, are named directly for Aerys's uncle, grandfather, and father, in the order of their deaths. Prince Daeron died in 251 AC, Aegon in 259 AC, and Jaehaerys in 262 AC. I would not be surprised if the unknown stillbirth from 270 AC was named after either Prince Duncan (in case it was a boy), or Queen Betha or Princess Rhaelle (in case it was a girl). Did witnissing the deaths of his family members make Aerys want to name his children directly after them? After all, for Rhaegar, such a clear pattern doesn't seem to exist, and it seems likely that Rhaegar was the one child who Aerys and Rhaella had not named themselves (judging by the fact that Maekar's son Aemon received his name from King Daeron II). 

So in addition to losing yet another child (a terrible and traumatizing event in itself), there might an additional emotional load for Aerys here, by associating the child with his deceased father.

 

Of course, threatening to "bring the Titan to its knees" and taking liberties with your best friends wife during their wedding isn't the standard thing to do. But that is more suggestive of arrogance, from Aerys, I think, than being crazy. But even if these behaviours are more than that, they are still a long way from torturing people and burning them alive. 

 

Quote

Tywin is already dealing with this issue though in the form of Tyrion. If he has it in the back of his mind that Jaime will be able to be released from the Kingsguard one day then Jaime would still come before any subsequent children Tywin might have. Not only that, Tywin could have made a union to a woman who was past childbearing age.

That's true. If Jaime was released from the Kingsguard, we can reasonably assume that most would view him as coming before any children by Tywin's second marriage. But, of course, the second Tywin dies, he can no longer control what happens. Look at the Dance of the Dragons. King Viserys I remarried, and in the end the entire kingdom was involved in a civil war for the right to inherit. Perhaps Tywin saw it as a good assurance to not remarry, to ensure that no children from another marriage could try to make Jaime's claim worthless due to his previously having been sworn to the Kingsguard.

Then there's Tyrion's claim, but it appears that Tywin was always planning to disinherit his younger son.

 

Quote

Fair enough. I still got the impression that Aerys and Rhaella were dealing with a situation that was similar to what some of their ancestors suffered.

You can consider it. But unless any future text states such a thing, though, it should not be assumed. That would not be fair.

 

Quote

I'm fascinated with this entire exchange because I'm convinced that Tywin is being 100% truthful. He didn't have to mention Elia at all. He brings up the fact that it was all done too brutally. I can see him not commenting on her at all because he viewed her as nothing. 

Hmm.. Oberyn did not only come for justice for Aegon and Rhaenys, though, and that's what they are discussing. What to say when Oberyn demands the justice he came for.

 

Quote

His choice of words for the second line in bold is interesting. "Even you". It's like he's saying 'Even you [who knows better than anyone what I'm capable of]'. Why does he hope that Tyrion wouldn't think him capable of giving that command? The way he trails off after saying 'The rape...' I'm not getting the impression of a guy who gave that command.

Well, there's again a difference in the situation. At this point in time, Tyrion still believes that Tysha was a whore who had been hired to take his virginity, and who took the ruse too far by marrying him, wanting money, or perhaps power, or something like that. Even in Tyrion's eyes, (at that moment), Tysha had committed an act against House Lannister. And Tywin acted on that, in a terrible way. But as far as Tyrion knows, Elia had done no such thing. "Do you really believe that I would order such an act against someone who had done nothing to our House?".

Of course, Elia had done something against House Lannister, in Tywin's eyes, and that was taking Cersei's place (despite the fact the Elia most likely had had little to no say in the matter). But did Tyrion, at that moment, already knew that Tywin had wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar? It seems that his trial by battle is the first time he hears about it. 

 

Quote

Tywin likes nothing more than to teach sharp lessons. If this was all about paying back and insult and a debt then why not tell Tyrion that? 'See, Tyrion? No family in Westeros is ever going to get away with insulting our House.' There's nothing that Tyrion can gain by going around telling people that Tywin gave the order and even if he did, I can't see how that would have hurt Tywin at this point in the story since a lot of people suspect it anyway.

Don't tell people any more than what they need to know. What Tyrion can gain by telling people that Tywin gave the order, is that Oberyn can build a legal case against him, which, if Tywin loses, can give Tyrion a claim to Casterly Rock - the thing Tywin does not want. I'm not saying that this is the one and only reason that Tywin would not have told Tyrion such. But it can easily have played a part.

 

Look at Gregor's involvement. It is a well-known rumour that he was responsible for the deaths of Elia and Aegon:

Some said it had been Gregor who’d dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword.

[...]

“Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands.

 

But despite the fact that everyone considers it known, Oberyn and Doran cannot act upon it, as it has never been confirmed.

"[...]. Is it true that Gregor Clegane admitted slaying Elia and her children?”
“He roared out his guilt for all the court to hear,”

 

For Tywin's involvement, it would have been the same.

 

Quote

I feel like Tywin was giving more details than Tyrion needed to know and that's what made the conversation seem truthful. Plus, he's trusting Tyrion when he's telling him that he plans on lying. To me this all suggests that they were having a truthful conversation and the readers get just the barest hint of Tywin feeling some tiny drop of guilt.

He does give him a lot of details. But is it the entire story? 

 

Quote

This all raises a question that I've never considered before. Are there any times when we know for sure that Tywin has lied to Tyrion? I'm not talking about something like where he tells Tyrion that the plan was to have him sent to the Wall (which sounded like total nonsense to me) but a conversation where he straight up lies about the facts. I typically get the impression that Tywin is blunt and truthful with Tyrion and am guessing that this conversation was no exception. 

Tysha, for one. 

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2016 at 4:51 PM, Jo Maltese said:

Well there is Cersei...Who is a slut and is more likely to take after Joanna than Myrcella IMHO. And there is Shae as Corbon mentioned above, whom Tywin seemed to have liked quite a lot ... and maybe loved?

What is striking is that Tywin did not kill Shae despite his threatening to do so : this is completely out of his public character  - think of the Rains of Castamere or of how both Jaime and Tyrion reflect on the importance of actually carrying out your threats if you want to be feared / respected. So private Tywin is not the total cool-blooded unbending public lord but someone more complex with his flaws and weaknesses (as everyone is) IMO. So yes, maybe he loved Shae after all. In this view, Tywin knowing of AJT and forgiving Joanna... And agreeing to let Tyrion live (not unlike Ned with Lyanna) becomes a coherent possibility...

Well, to be fair, Cersei doesn't seem to gain pleasure from intercourse with people who are not Jaime. With the exception of Lancel, who was trying to imitate Jaime, all her sexual partners were people who were going to make her more powerful, tools in the Game. She never derived pleasure from them. 

Instead everything is calculated, a plan to reinforce her influence, nothing more nothing else.

If she is to be compared with Oberyn, Brandon or Ami, then it is obvious that her motives are different.

In regards to Shae, I have not formed an opinion yet. According to GRRM Varys was also involved.

Quote

Right, and there’s also the surprise at Tywin’s hypocrisy when he finds her in his bed. Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that's not clear]? Or did he just not care?

 

 

 

 

Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said “you will not bring that whore to court,” and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

 

So I think that in the books there is going to be a very interesting revelation in regards to Tywin and Shae and perhaps we will be able to understand Tywin's motives better.

 

@Rhaechyll Targaryen

 

Before TWOIAF was published, I believed in A+J=T but I was 99% certain that Joanna had constantly rebuffed his advances, which only increased Aerys' lust for her. Judging from what Barristan had told to Dany, which before WOIAF was released it was the strongest clue of  A+J=T, unlike Rhaella and Bonifer, Joanna and Aerys was an affair based on lust.

The revelation that there were rumours of Joanna losing her virginity to Aerys (and on the day his father was crowned), her status as paramour and emerging influence, suggests that Joanna possibly wanted to have an affair with Prince Aerys.

Despite the fact that throughout westerosi history, there have been several women who had power and influence, Joanna is described as the only person to rule Tywin, the man who actually ruled the 7 kingdoms. If anything, Joanna might have enjoyed her control over both the King and his Hand. Regarding Tywin and his pride, I do agree with Lord Varys. Young Tywin was different to Older Tywin. 

 

Quote


We know that one of Tywin's biggest issues is not wanting to be laughed at. I find it difficult to believe that a man as proud as Tywin would be so deeply in love with a woman who was so publicly a mistress to another man. I can see him still marrying her for power and/or political reasons and don't see the virginity as a deal breaker necessarily. It's the fact that he loved her so much that makes me think she probably loved him too and that Aerys was likely jealous of this. 

 

 

I agree that Aerys was jealous of Tywin and from a different perspective, Aerys is the one who lost. Tywin probably tolerated Joanna's affair because he knew that in the end, she was intended to marry him, not Aerys. Even if Joanna did enjoy the benefits of being paramour to the King, this was not going to last for ever and it didn't,

 

Quote

 

When I think of the line about the liberties that Aerys took during the bedding--to me he was acting like a man who hadn't been there before. I get the impression that it drove Aerys nuts that he couldn't have this woman and finally decided to force the issue years later.


 

 

For me, after reading WOIAF, it is a behaviour of a spoilt child, who is desperately to claim something (Joanna) even though he knows that this will never happen. 

 

Quote

 

When I consider Aerys's nature, rather than taking liberties at the bedding, doesn't it seem like he'd be the type to make a joke about how he'd already had sex with Joanna? Instead, I very much get the vibe of a man who's getting drunk and upset because he's being denied the one person he's always wanted.  


 

 

Denied might not be the right word. Losing that one person seems to be the case. He had Joanna but now the party is over, she is officially married to Tywin.

 

 

Quote

I think that jealousy in general was one of the big issues between Tywin and Aerys. I think Aerys resented that Tywin was a good Hand, I think he hated that Tywin ended up with the woman he wanted, and I think it was too much for him to see Tywin and Joanna with two beautiful looking children, while he and Rhaella continued to struggle after Rhaegar. 

Absolutely. I think that Aerys chose to have an affair with Joanna in the first place, because he knew that Tywin would be offended. Gradually his feelings about her became much stronger. 

Quote

 Say Joanna really was  Aerys's paramour. Why don't more people know this or talk about it? Why don't any of our Lannister POVs ever think about this?

Well for one thing, Joanna has been dead for years. So is Aerys. Why bother talk about them in the first place? The person to instigate a conversation about them is Daenerys and only because she wants to find out more about the parents she never met and compare their love lives to hers. It would be out of character for Ned or Catelyn or Davos or Arianne to mention that Lady Joanna Lannister allegedly had an affair with King Aerys Targaryen. Those are tales of the past. Most people ignore them and the few that do not, seem to want to forget them. Barristan Selmy refrains from thinking of Aerys in his POV. 

At some point though people did talk about it,

Quote

Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. "Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …"

But apparently they stopped at some point.

Jaime Lannister, who lived at the Rock and at the Red Keep, also seems unaware of the rumours surrounding his mother.For what's worth, Jaime is oblivious to the fact that Ser Bonifer became so pious after Rhaella married Aerys. My guess is that the more fierce Tywin became, the less easy it was to mention Joanna's past. It is a situation similar to Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. In Winterfell and the North, areas which are controlled by Ned, it is prohibited to mention Ashara Dayne and the nature of her relationship with him.

Quote

 Say Joanna really was  Aerys's paramour. Why don't more people know this or talk about it? Why don't any of our Lannister POVs ever think about this?

Arya only discovers the rumours once she interacts with Ned Dayne, who has never restricted from being told about his aunt and her exploits with Ned Stark. He does seem genuinely surprised though when he discoevers that Arya is unaware.

Similarly, Jojen is just as surprised when he discovers that Ned had never told his family about the tourney at Harrenhal.

Some men will do anything to keep some things a secret, just like Ned and Tywin did. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of people take a very wrong approach in interpreting the character of Tywin.

The usual take is that the man was shaped into the abomination he eventually became by the experience of his childhood and youth under his ineffective father, Lord Tytos, who made the Lannisters the laughingstock of the West and the entire Realm.

But that is just one of the influences that made the man. Tywin's development didn't end with his Reyne-Tarbeck uprising. In fact, if we can trust Yandel's description of young Tywin under young Aerys II then Tywin was still had a very prominent nice and amiable side at this time. After all, Tywin dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks during the reign of Jaehaerys II, long before even became Hand.

A more precise interpretation of Tywin would take into account the effect Aerys II rise to the Iron Throne and his own appointment to the position of Hand - the youngest Hand in the history of the Seven Kingdoms! - had on him. Tywin's childhood and youth in Casterly Rock sucked. But those bad times ended when Tywin dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks. Tytos lived on, but the power of House Lannister had been restored, and the actual ruler of the West was Tywin from that point. The future of Ser Tywin Lannister actually appeared to be as golden as his hair in the 260s: Aerys II named him Hand, he married the cousin he had (apparently) always loved, Joanna gave him a pair of beautiful twins, and his friendship with the king should enable the Lannisters to marry into the royal family at last.

The idea that the Tywin of those years actually cared all that much about 'being laughed at' doesn't make much sense. There was no reason to laugh at him because the star of the man was rising and he got pretty much everything he could have ever wished for.

Things soured when Joanna died giving birth to an ugly dwarf - that must have been a devastating blow for him -, his relationship with Aerys deteriorated, and the hopes he had for his twins proved to be in vain.

The Tywin we meet in AGoT is a man bereft of all the joy he once had in life. He lost his beloved wife, his best friend, and was in the end forced to try to realize the dreams he had for his children with the likes of Robert Baratheon. Just as Robert wanted to marry Lyanna instead of Cersei, and Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar instead of Robert, Tywin wanted to marry Cersei to a Targaryen prince.

In a sense Tywin got what he wanted but it was a travesty of the dreams he had actually had for his house.

We also have to keep in mind that Tywin spend some of his boyhood years at the court of Aegon V where he grew up at the side of Prince Aerys. Young Tywin most likely never dreamed that he and his son would be the ones toppling the Targaryen dynasty and murdering the crucial members of the royal family. While it is clear that Tywin felt he had no other choice the idea that he was actually happy with this development is very unlikely. The Tywin we know was shaped by his entire life up the point we first meet him, not just by some events.

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

There is no reason to believe that Yandel gave us a full and detailed history of the pregnancies of Rhaella Targaryen. There might have been more miscarriages, stillbirths, and children that died in the cradle than we know of.

One reason why there is no pregnancy mentioned during the reign of Jaehaerys II is that the account of his reign doesn't focus on Aerys and Rhaella (and neither does the account on Aerys II dwell on his life prior to his ascension). We can reasonably guess that there was no time for another pregnancy after Summerhall because Aerys accompanied the Targaryen army to the Stepstones and most likely spend a year or more apart from his sister-wife. However, there is no reason not to assume that they did not try to have another child after Aerys' return. Rhaella may very easily have had a miscarriage in the 261-2.

To ask why the hell nobody talks or remembers that Joanna was Aerys' paramour back in the day is of no use. The best answer to this would either be 'because George doesn't want to reveal it yet' (which is also the reason why nobody ever remembers or talks about the details of the Rhaegar-Lyanna affair). A good in-universe reason is that the late Joanna Lannister has been dead for a long time. The only POVs giving a damn about her are her own children, and they might not have been aware of her affair with Aerys II because the woman Joanna was transformed into a saint by Tywin after her sudden death. It is not difficult to imagine that nobody at Casterly Rock wanted (or dared) to speak ill of their late Lady, especially not in the presence of Tywin or his children. I mean, the children may have told their father what they overheard, and that could then have had dire consequences for the slanderer. 

As to Shae, I don't buy the idea that she worked for Tywin before she became Tyrion's whore, but it is quite clear that he knew who and what she was. It makes little sense to assume that Tywin Lannister isn't told what transpires in his own camp - especially not if it concerns his dwarf son.

Tywin might also have been very aware of the fact that Tyrion took Shae with him to KL. After all, she would have been gone from his camp after Tyrion left, so it wouldn't have been difficult to guess what had transpired. There is no reason to believe that Tywin confused Alayaya and Shae - both were whores, and he had one of them whipped.

We have also no clue whether Tywin learns that Tyrion has Shae hidden in the Red Keep and continues to fuck her when he returns to KL. This is not impossible. Varys makes it clear to Tyrion in ASoS that he isn't going to lie to either Cersei or Tywin if they ask about him, and we don't know if they ever did. Tywin could have had his own twisted motives to allow Tyrion to continue his affair with Shae for the time being - after all, this whole thing could be a good way to finally rid himself of his ingrate son at an opportune moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys

of course Tywins personality was influenced by his relationship with Aerys.  I've never seen or heard anyone of us who believes in the "rape" theory of AJ=T deny that.  In fact it's a central part of the theory.  Johanna as well influenced Tywins personality and behaviors for the rest of his life. 

Of course I disagree strongly with your interpretation of Tywins personality since I don't think it is backed up by textual evidence.  If it is demonstrated to be the case that Johanna lorded it over Tywin and schemed to gain power by fucking Aerys then I'll revise my opinion.  I don't find it very likely that Johanna who was 8-13 years old when she met Aerys would have had the wherewithal to attempt such a thing in any case. 

as it is, the text tells us the opposite.  By all accounts Johanna and Tywin loved each other and were a team.  She took care of things at home while he helped Aerys rule the realm.  Tywin was so devastated by Johannas death that he "never smiled again".  I don't know if you've ever been in a one sided relationship but if not I'll tell you that smiles are not a big part of it.  

Assuming the harassment/rape theory is true, it's likely that Tywin knew that Aerys desired Johanna and may have attempted something physical.  If the two were a team and trusted each other he likely helped her stay away from Aerys to the extent he could. We know he knew that Aerys made several inappropriate comments.  

Ulumately, Tywin may have guessed (or worried) that Aerys raped Johanna, leading to her death. It helps to further motivate the terrible wrath he ultimately brought against the Targaryens that he thought that Aerys may have raped and "killed" he only person he ever loved?  Not that Tywin Lannister ever needed more motivation than a slight to his pride to visit wrath upon his enemies.

also Tywin suspecting Aerys of raping Johanna helps to motivate his continual use of rape as a weapon during the period after Johannas death (Tysha, Tyrion, Elia and the people of KL, and the riverlands).  

Ultimayely Tywins relationship with Aerys and Johanna and the results (both of their deaths) strongly influenced the monster Tywin became.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

@Lord Varys

of course Tywins personality was influenced by his relationship with Aerys.  I've never seen or heard anyone of us who believes in the "rape" theory of AJ=T deny that.  In fact it's a central part of the theory.  Johanna as well influenced Tywins personality and behaviors for the rest of his life. 

Of course I disagree strongly with your interpretation of Tywins personality since I don't think it is backed up by textual evidence.  If it is demonstrated to be the case that Johanna lorded it over Tywin and schemed to gain power by fucking Aerys then I'll revise my opinion.  I don't find it very likely that Johanna who was 8-13 years old when she met Aerys would have had the wherewithal to attempt such a thing in any case. 

as it is, the text tells us the opposite.  By all accounts Johanna and Tywin loved each other and were a team.  She took care of things at home while he helped Aerys rule the realm.  Tywin was so devastated by Johannas death that he "never smiled again".  I don't know if you've ever been in a one sided relationship but if not I'll tell you that smiles are not a big part of it.  

Assuming the harassment/rape theory is true, it's likely that Tywin knew that Aerys desired Johanna and may have attempted something physical.  If the two were a team and trusted each other he likely helped her stay away from Aerys to the extent he could. We know he knew that Aerys made several inappropriate comments.  

Ulumately, Tywin may have guessed (or worried) that Aerys raped Johanna, leading to her death. It helps to further motivate the terrible wrath he ultimately brought against the Targaryens that he thought that Aerys may have raped and "killed" he only person he ever loved?  Not that Tywin Lannister ever needed more motivation than a slight to his pride to visit wrath upon his enemies.

also Tywin suspecting Aerys of raping Johanna helps to motivate his continual use of rape as a weapon during the period after Johannas death (Tysha, Tyrion, Elia and the people of KL, and the riverlands).  

Ultimayely Tywins relationship with Aerys and Johanna and the results (both of their deaths) strongly influenced the monster Tywin became.  

I'm not insisting on the reading of Joanna controlling both men. That's just one possibility. It is just as likely that Tywin and Joanna were both power-hungry and ambitious, and Joanna seduced Aerys and began an affair with him with Tywin's consent and approval.

One has to wonder why the hell Aerys II would want to appoint Ser Tywin as his Hand if he is actually lusting after Joanna Lannister who happens to be betrothed to that guy. And vice versa, there is the fact to consider that Tywin was the youngest Hand in history and not at court - as far as we know - when he was appointed by Aerys. Who fed him the idea that Tywin Lannister would make a great Hand? Aside from Joanna there wouldn't have been any Lannister cronies at court at this time, and the old guard among the Small Council appointed either by Aegon V or Jaehaerys II wouldn't have counseled the king to appoint a rash young man with ruthless tendencies to the office. Certainly not such a young man.

Love does not necessarily have to mean you insist on a monogamous relationship, especially not if you would do or give anything in the world to win the favor of a woman. If that was the type of love Tywin felt for Joanna - and if he had actually submissive fantasies (which is actually indicated by Shae wearing the chain of the Hand when they have sex - it is a symbol of power, and by allowing Shae to wear it Tywin gave up power and control) - then the leeway Joanna had in bossing her husband/betrothed around could actually have been pretty broad.

But again - the scenario of Tywin/Joanna being an ambitious couple who used Joanna to manipulate Aerys could work, too.

My general problem with the rape scenario is that there is little chance that Tywin would not have found out that Aerys raped Joanna if he did that. Joanna would have to have been a brilliant actress to conceal such a rape, and there would have been little reason for her to do so. I mean, we have to keep in mind that Tywin was apparently very much into his wife and didn't see her all that often, so he would have tried to have sex with her as often as he could during her stay at KL. Usually being raped is a pretty big trauma, and the rape victim isn't very likely to want to be intimately touched shortly thereafter...

But my usual take on Yandel's story about the anniversary tourney is that Tywin may have decided to resign on the next day after Aerys publicly insulted Joanna because he wasn't willing to tolerate insults directed at his beloved wife. But if Joanna did not want Tywin to resign (for whatever reason) then there is a pretty good chance that she might have visited Aerys in the very night to have sex with him to ensure that Aerys would not accept Tywin's resignation. After all, part of the mystery there is why the hell Aerys did not accept Tywin's resignation. Yes, there relationship wasn't yet as bad as in the later years, and perhaps they were still sort of friends (with Aerys seeing the jests on Tywin's expense as 'friendly teasing' or something like that) but if Aerys actually had raped Joanna in the previous night then one would expect him not to want Tywin around him. After all, his wife could tell him about that, and Aerys' paranoia should actually cause him to see Tywin as a threat to his safety and life is such a scenario.

And on Tywin's side there is the problem of him staying on as Hand as long as he did and continuously trying to marry his daughter to either Rhaegar or Viserys. One would expect that a sane man wouldn't want his daughter to marry the son of the man who has raped his wife and the mother of said daughter. That's just a little bit too much.

In my opinion, the rape version of the theory is therefore less likely than a version in which there are additional layers to all the motivations of the characters involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

both of the theories you posit suggest that Johanna "sexually manipulated" Aerys.  At the oldest, when they met Johanna would have been 13.   I'm sorry but I find it incredibly unlikely that a 13 year old kid is going to be the instigator in a sexual relationship with a 16year old.  This just does not happen.  If it was consensual, it's more conceivable that she might have "fallen for him" ala Sansa and Joffery.

The reason we are given that Tywin was appointed is that Aerys was impressed by Tywins ruthlessness.  And Supposedly they were already friends, though we do not know (I think?) when exactly Tywin was and wasn't at court, so that probably contributed.  Aerys was ambitious and he wanted someone equally ambitious ruling with him.  

But Another reason that Aerys might have appointed Tywin is the hope that appointing him would keep Johanna at court.  He knew Johanna was destined to marry Tywin and permanently leave for CR.  Appointing Tywin to hand could have been a last ditch attemp to keep her at court. As pointed out by another poster This was actually a common strategy employed by kings that want to keep a mistress at court - find them a husband, or promote the existing husband to some important position.

now I seriously doubt Aerys thought Tywin would knowingly accept this kind of arrangement.  He probably didn't think it through further than "maybe I can finally corner her... I know she wants me..."  Etc.

eta: you say it's a "mystery" why Aerys would not accept Tywins resignation.  I don't understand the issue here.  Aerys believes the Kings power is absolute - if he wants Tywin as hand, Tywin will obey.  Tywins opinion is irrelevant, only Aerys desires matter. It would only take Tywin challenging him to cause Aerys to dig in his heels. 

Aerys also would not have seen Tywin as a threat.  For one thing, Aerys (like most rapists) almost certainly believes whatever encounter occurred with Johanna was consensual.  He's not thinking "oh I raped this guys' wife, he's gonna kill me."  He's thinking "I finally gave Johanna what she always wanted and Tywin can't do anything about it".  

Edited by A spoon of knife and fork

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

There is no reason to believe that Yandel gave us a full and detailed history of the pregnancies of Rhaella Targaryen. There might have been more miscarriages, stillbirths, and children that died in the cradle than we know of.

One reason why there is no pregnancy mentioned during the reign of Jaehaerys II is that the account of his reign doesn't focus on Aerys and Rhaella (and neither does the account on Aerys II dwell on his life prior to his ascension). We can reasonably guess that there was no time for another pregnancy after Summerhall because Aerys accompanied the Targaryen army to the Stepstones and most likely spend a year or more apart from his sister-wife. However, there is no reason not to assume that they did not try to have another child after Aerys' return. Rhaella may very easily have had a miscarriage in the 261-2.

Is there any reason to assume that he didn't? He's giving quite the list, why omit one or two? In fact, there were two perfect moments to discuss it, had there been any pregnancies during Jaehaerys's reign:

The new king had already provided the realm with an heir in the person of his son Rhaegar, born amongst the flames of Summerhall. Aerys and his queen, his sister Rhaella, were young, and it was anticipated that they would have many more children. This was a vital question at the time, for the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches.

 

and

Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last). Relations between the king and queen grew even more strained when Rhaella proved unable to give Aerys any further children. Miscarriages in 263 and 264 were followed by a stillborn daughter born in 267. Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year. Then came another stillbirth in 270, another miscarriage in 271, and Prince Aegon, born two turns premature in 272, dead in 273.

The first discussing Aerys and Rhaella and the children-aspect of their marriage thusfar, (during Jaehaerys's reign), and the second listing all the troubles they had had.

Aerys was away at war for a year, which means that here was one year out of the three where he and Rhaella could not have conceived. But there would still have been two during which they could have. And nothing indicates that he didn't.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to Shae, I don't buy the idea that she worked for Tywin before she became Tyrion's whore, but it is quite clear that he knew who and what she was. It makes little sense to assume that Tywin Lannister isn't told what transpires in his own camp - especially not if it concerns his dwarf son.

Tywin might also have been very aware of the fact that Tyrion took Shae with him to KL. After all, she would have been gone from his camp after Tyrion left, so it wouldn't have been difficult to guess what had transpired. There is no reason to believe that Tywin confused Alayaya and Shae - both were whores, and he had one of them whipped.

Why would anyone assume that he ever believed them to be the same girls? He clearly states during his conversation with Tyrion that he's aware that Alayaya is not Shae. And it is clearly stated that Cersei, who believed Alayaya to have been Tyrion's current lover, told Tywin what she knew. 

 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think a lot of people take a very wrong approach in interpreting the character of Tywin.

The usual take is that the man was shaped into the abomination he eventually became by the experience of his childhood and youth under his ineffective father, Lord Tytos, who made the Lannisters the laughingstock of the West and the entire Realm.

But that is just one of the influences that made the man. Tywin's development didn't end with his Reyne-Tarbeck uprising. In fact, if we can trust Yandel's description of young Tywin under young Aerys II then Tywin was still had a very prominent nice and amiable side at this time. After all, Tywin dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks during the reign of Jaehaerys II, long before even became Hand.

A more precise interpretation of Tywin would take into account the effect Aerys II rise to the Iron Throne and his own appointment to the position of Hand - the youngest Hand in the history of the Seven Kingdoms! - had on him. Tywin's childhood and youth in Casterly Rock sucked. But those bad times ended when Tywin dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks. Tytos lived on, but the power of House Lannister had been restored, and the actual ruler of the West was Tywin from that point. The future of Ser Tywin Lannister actually appeared to be as golden as his hair in the 260s: Aerys II named him Hand, he married the cousin he had (apparently) always loved, Joanna gave him a pair of beautiful twins, and his friendship with the king should enable the Lannisters to marry into the royal family at last.

The idea that the Tywin of those years actually cared all that much about 'being laughed at' doesn't make much sense. There was no reason to laugh at him because the star of the man was rising and he got pretty much everything he could have ever wished for.

The picture Yandel paints of Tywin during his early years of his Handship, is much sterner than the picture you paint of him here.

And yet the Seven Kingdoms prospered greatly during the first decade of his reign, for the King's Hand was all that the king himself was not—diligent, decisive, tireless, fiercely intelligent, just, and stern.

[...]

Yet despite these accomplishments, Tywin Lannister was little loved. His rivals charged that he was humorless, unforgiving, unbending, proud, and cruel.

Especially that last sentence.

Also, don't forget Genna

“Hear us roar.” Jaime grinned. “Next you’ll be telling me how much he liked to laugh.”
“No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire.”

That does not suggest that Tywin only developed his mistrust towards laughter only towards the end of his Handship.

And of course his development didn't end with the Reyne's and Tarbeck's. But doesn't the fact that Tywin dealt the way he did with the Reyne's and Tarbeck's already before he had become Hand, and suffered all he suffered under Aerys, show what type of person Tywin was? Even if he hadn't developed his ways a full 100% at that time?

 

Tywin had been the page to the King, squired with the Crown Prince, been given the right to knight the Crown Prince, been awarded for his harsh treatment of Houses Reyne and Tarbeck with the honor of the office of Hand of the King - the youngest ever! - and allowed to rule the Kingdoms in the King's name, more and more as time passed. He had been allowed to marry the girl he loved, and celebrated the birth of not one, but two golden 'heirs', Jaime and Cersei.

He had everything going for him, but that doesn't mean that he didn't fear being laughed at. Perhaps, that's what drove him to excell. Don't ever give them an excuse to laugh at you. And, we know, that didn't work forever.

Slights and gibes became ever more numerous; courtiers hoping for advancement soon learned that the quickest way to catch the king's eye was by making mock of his solemn, humorless Hand.

To make matters worse, it was the King who began mocking Tywin. He who had been Tywin's best friend.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My general problem with the rape scenario is that there is little chance that Tywin would not have found out that Aerys raped Joanna if he did that. Joanna would have to have been a brilliant actress to conceal such a rape, and there would have been little reason for her to do so. I mean, we have to keep in mind that Tywin was apparently very much into his wife and didn't see her all that often, so he would have tried to have sex with her as often as he could during her stay at KL. Usually being raped is a pretty big trauma, and the rape victim isn't very likely to want to be intimately touched shortly thereafter...

But my usual take on Yandel's story about the anniversary tourney is that Tywin may have decided to resign on the next day after Aerys publicly insulted Joanna because he wasn't willing to tolerate insults directed at his beloved wife. But if Joanna did not want Tywin to resign (for whatever reason) then there is a pretty good chance that she might have visited Aerys in the very night to have sex with him to ensure that Aerys would not accept Tywin's resignation. After all, part of the mystery there is why the hell Aerys did not accept Tywin's resignation. Yes, there relationship wasn't yet as bad as in the later years, and perhaps they were still sort of friends (with Aerys seeing the jests on Tywin's expense as 'friendly teasing' or something like that) but if Aerys actually had raped Joanna in the previous night then one would expect him not to want Tywin around him. After all, his wife could tell him about that, and Aerys' paranoia should actually cause him to see Tywin as a threat to his safety and life is such a scenario.

And on Tywin's side there is the problem of him staying on as Hand as long as he did and continuously trying to marry his daughter to either Rhaegar or Viserys. One would expect that a sane man wouldn't want his daughter to marry the son of the man who has raped his wife and the mother of said daughter. That's just a little bit too much.

In my opinion, the rape version of the theory is therefore less likely than a version in which there are additional layers to all the motivations of the characters involved.

If Joanna went to Aerys willingly, and without Tywin's knowledge, why would Tywin ever suspect a thing?

Also, they all say that Joanna ruled Tywin, and if there's any truth to those words, Joanna would have been able to stop Tywin from resigning without going to Aerys. We might even have an indication as to how

"Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them. [...]"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

I think we have no textual evidence to rule out the possibility that there was another pregnancy during the reign of Jaehaerys II. Yandel skips over the reign of Jaehaerys II altogether in his discussions of the pregnancies and speaks about 'Aerys and his queen', not what they did when they were still the Prince and the Princess Consort of Dragonstone.

The list of successive pregnancies were are given ends with Prince Aegon who died in 273 AC. Whether there were other pregnancies in-between Jaehaerys and Viserys we also do not know - it is not very likely but still a possibility (after all, a miscarriage can happen early in a pregnancy). Yandel never says he is giving us a complete list of the pregnancies.

As to Tywin:

I restricted myself to the 260s for a reason. Tywin and Aerys' relationship only soured around 270 AC, beginning with the extended stay of the court at Casterly Rock. But even that wasn't yet as bad as things eventually became in the 270s.

Yandel claiming that Tywin was little loved is actually a difficult statement. First, we don't know if he actually came to that conclusion consulting contemporary sources from the 260s or whether he concluded that by consulting later sources, say, from the 270s or 280s. But more importantly, the relationship between Aerys and Tywin must have been good in the beginning, so any notions of Tywin's rivals wouldn't have mattered at all. My point was that Tywin must have been a very happy man back in the 260s, not that he didn't have any rivals. Pycelle is evidence that he also had fan boys, and he most likely wasn't the only one of those.

Genna is a bad source to address Tywin's mindset in those days. As far as we know she resided at Casterly Rock. How could she have known how Tywin felt in distant KL? Genna and Tywin would only have spent much time together after Tywin returned to Casterly Rock in 282 AC. And by that time Tywin had changed very much from the boy she once loved in her childhood.

The fact that Tywin was willing to take all that shit from Aerys and his cronies later on is itself also testament to the fact that Tywin was either capable of taking a lot all his life or that he was willing to do this at this time - which would make him a different man from the guy we meet in the series. I'm not sure Tywin was willing to take any shit from anyone in the 290s. Not even from Robert.

As to why Tywin might suspect/know that he wasn't Tyrion's father:

There are a lot of ways to explain that. Here are a some of them:

- Tywin and Joanna did not have sex during the anniversary tourney, and subsequently Tywin knew he wasn't the father of Tyrion.

- Tyrion resembled some of Aerys and Rhaella's stillborn children. Perhaps they were similarly disfigured or they also had mismatched eyes.

- Joanna told Tywin on her deathbed that Aerys and not he was Tyrion's father.

- Tywin suspected that something was wrong because the way Joanna and Aerys acted after the evening of the breast joke.

The idea that Joanna would have been able to prevent Tywin from resigning because she ruled him doesn't hold much water in my opinion. That notion fails to properly recognize the nature of this relationship which most likely was based on Joanna 'ruling' Tywin by being aware of the feelings her had for and manipulating them to get what she wanted. But if the core of Joanna's hold over Tywin was his devotion to her it would be very difficult - perhaps even impossible - for her to use that to convince Tywin to accept any insults made against her person. Perhaps Joanna could have changed Tywin's mind if she had had some time, but considering that this probably occurred during some feast late in the evening (Aerys was supposedly drunk) she wouldn't have had much time to talk to Tywin.

Perhaps she never even had the time to talk to her. After all, it is possible that Tywin got very angry over this, and removed himself to his chambers to brood pretty early on that evening, telling Joanna he would definitely resign on the next morning and return with her to Casterly Rock to raise their children together.

Edited by Lord Varys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

- Tyrion resembled some of Aerys and Joanna's stillborn children. Perhaps they were similarly disfigured or they also had mismatched eyes.

LV - I assume that was a typo and you really meant "Aerys and Rhaella's stillborn children" rather than Joanna's, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

LV - I assume that was a typo and you really meant "Aerys and Rhaella's stillborn children" rather than Joanna's, right?

Yeah, that's a mistake ;-).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh man, if y'all haven't already seen it, y'all are gonna love this...

Quote

 

At the bridge's center span, the severed hands of thieves and cutpurses hung like strings of onions from iron stanchions along the roadway. Three heads were on display as well—two men and a woman, their crimes scrawled on tablets underneath them. A pair of spearmen attended them, clad in polished helms and shirts of silver mail. Across their cheeks were tiger stripes as green as jade. From time to time the guards waved their spears to chase away the kestrels, gulls, and carrion crows paying court to the deceased. The birds returned to the heads within moments.

"What did they do?" Tyrion inquired innocently.

The knight glanced at the inscriptions. "The woman was a slave who raised her hand to her mistress. The older man was accused of fomenting rebellion and spying for the dragon queen."

"And the young one?"

"Killed his father."

Tyrion gave the rotting head a second look. Why, it almost looks as if those lips are smiling.

 

Tyrion VII, Dance 27

Get it? The third head is Tyrion!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On April 15, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh man, if y'all haven't already seen it, y'all are gonna love this...

Tyrion VII, Dance 27

Get it? The third head is Tyrion!

Nice! Three heads, and a dragon mentioned. You know, a kestrel is a small red falcon. So we have one bird of small stature in Lannister red. The gull is white, perhaps referencing Dany's hair. And the crow, that's obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

I think we have no textual evidence to rule out the possibility that there was another pregnancy during the reign of Jaehaerys II. Yandel skips over the reign of Jaehaerys II altogether in his discussions of the pregnancies and speaks about 'Aerys and his queen', not what they did when they were still the Prince and the Princess Consort of Dragonstone.

The list of successive pregnancies were are given ends with Prince Aegon who died in 273 AC. Whether there were other pregnancies in-between Jaehaerys and Viserys we also do not know - it is not very likely but still a possibility (after all, a miscarriage can happen early in a pregnancy). Yandel never says he is giving us a complete list of the pregnancies.

Yet, there is absolutely nothing at the moment which suggests another, as of yet unmentioned, pregnancy. In fact,

The new king had already provided the realm with an heir in the person of his son Rhaegar, born amongst the flames of Summerhall. Aerys and his queen, his sister Rhaella, were young, and it was anticipated that they would have many more children. This was a vital question at the time, for the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches.

"it was anticipated that they would have many more children" would have been the best moment to mention such a pregnancy, even if it ended in a miscarriage. Especially considering how Yandel immediately states "that was a vital question at the time".

The list might end with Aegon's death in 273 AC, but the account continues in detail from there.

 

All I was saying, is that, based on the dates we are currently given, and the names of these children, as far as they have been revealed thusfar, show a very interesting pattern.

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

As to Tywin:

I restricted myself to the 260s for a reason. Tywin and Aerys' relationship only soured around 270 AC, beginning with the extended stay of the court at Casterly Rock. But even that wasn't yet as bad as things eventually became in the 270s.

Yandel claiming that Tywin was little loved is actually a difficult statement. First, we don't know if he actually came to that conclusion consulting contemporary sources from the 260s or whether he concluded that by consulting later sources, say, from the 270s or 280s. But more importantly, the relationship between Aerys and Tywin must have been good in the beginning, so any notions of Tywin's rivals wouldn't have mattered at all. My point was that Tywin must have been a very happy man back in the 260s, not that he didn't have any rivals. Pycelle is evidence that he also had fan boys, and he most likely wasn't the only one of those.

Genna is a bad source to address Tywin's mindset in those days. As far as we know she resided at Casterly Rock. How could she have known how Tywin felt in distant KL? Genna and Tywin would only have spent much time together after Tywin returned to Casterly Rock in 282 AC. And by that time Tywin had changed very much from the boy she once loved in her childhood.

The fact that Tywin was willing to take all that shit from Aerys and his cronies later on is itself also testament to the fact that Tywin was either capable of taking a lot all his life or that he was willing to do this at this time - which would make him a different man from the guy we meet in the series. I'm not sure Tywin was willing to take any shit from anyone in the 290s. Not even from Robert.

Why would Genna be a bad source? It's not like Tywin did not visit Casterly Rock during his time as Hand, nor as if Genna would never have visited King's Landing during those years. In addition, she had known Tywin since they had been children. If Tywin had only come to mistrust laughter towards the end of his Handship, or perhaps even after, Genna could not have connected that to the fact that people always laughed at Tytos. But if Tywin had mistrusted laughter due to Tytos since his early life, his sister would have been one of the best sources for such information.

 

Tywin was willing to take a lot from Aerys and his cronies, but I'd say that that's because he believed he would be rewarded for all his efforts in the end, by arranging a betrothal of Cersei to Rhaegar. He was denied, but kept keeping hope, bringing Cersei to court for that purpose. By the 290ties, Tywin had already achieved that goal, by having married Cersei to Robert, making her the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and Robert's heir being Tywin's grandson.

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

As to why Tywin might suspect/know that he wasn't Tyrion's father:

There are a lot of ways to explain that. Here are a some of them:

- Tywin and Joanna did not have sex during the anniversary tourney, and subsequently Tywin knew he wasn't the father of Tyrion.

"since I cannot proof that you are not mine".. If Tywin and Joanna did not have sex, Tywin would have had his proof, now wouldn't he?

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

- Tyrion resembled some of Aerys and Rhaella's stillborn children. Perhaps they were similarly disfigured or they also had mismatched eyes.

Until such a thing is mentioned for any of Aerys and Rhaella's children, such a comparison cannot possibly be made.

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

- Joanna told Tywin on her deathbed that Aerys and not he was Tyrion's father.

Again, Tywin would have had his proof.

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

- Tywin suspected that something was wrong because the way Joanna and Aerys acted after the evening of the breast joke.

Joanna would have returned to Casterly Rock, though, so they both would have needed to act in a rather specific peculiar way for Tywin to connect the two together, for longer periods of time.

 

On 13-4-2016 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Joanna would have been able to prevent Tywin from resigning because she ruled him doesn't hold much water in my opinion. That notion fails to properly recognize the nature of this relationship which most likely was based on Joanna 'ruling' Tywin by being aware of the feelings her had for and manipulating them to get what she wanted. But if the core of Joanna's hold over Tywin was his devotion to her it would be very difficult - perhaps even impossible - for her to use that to convince Tywin to accept any insults made against her person. Perhaps Joanna could have changed Tywin's mind if she had had some time, but considering that this probably occurred during some feast late in the evening (Aerys was supposedly drunk) she wouldn't have had much time to talk to Tywin.

Perhaps she never even had the time to talk to her. After all, it is possible that Tywin got very angry over this, and removed himself to his chambers to brood pretty early on that evening, telling Joanna he would definitely resign on the next morning and return with her to Casterly Rock to raise their children together.

Of course Joanna would have had the time to talk to Tywin, if she had wanted to, or had felt the need to do so. The insult was made in the evening, the attempt to resign only the following day. She would have had an entire night.

Convincing Tywin to accept the insults made against her person, would not have been impossible. Why had Tywin been accepting the insults made against himself? Because he wanted the reward of his service (including Cersei's marriage). Accepting the insults made against Joanna, would have been for the same goal (or so she could easily have told him), and Joanna was willing to take that burden on her, as Tywin had done so many times before. One flesh, one soul. In addition, Tywin began to become somewhat more vocal about his plans regarding Cersei at this time, and Joanna could have painted him the picture that the thing he wanted (betrothing Cersei to Rhaegar) would become unavailable to him, would he resign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

My point there was that we cannot be sure that we know all of Rhaella's pregnancies because Yandel never says he covered all of them. If he did, we would have to believe him, most likely, but he doesn't. That's all I'm saying.

Tywin:

We know Tywin didn't speak an entire year to Genna after her Tyrion comment. What does this tell us about the closeness of their relationship? Sure, they were closer in their childhood, but how often did Tywin and Genna actually talk about private things or spend time as brother and sister later in their lives? There is no hint that Genna was Tywin's confidant in all those days. That was Kevan, and only Kevan.

We know that Tywin's brothers visited court (Tygett) but there is no confirmation that Genna ever came to court during Tywin's tenure as Hand. It isn't impossible, but we don't know anything about it.

In general, Genna is talking about the past in 300 AC. Can we be sure she accurately remembers things that occurred in the 260s?

And since we know that Joanna Lannister made Tywin laugh there is no reason to believe that Tywin mistrusted love in general in the 260s. At least not his own laughs, or laughter that wasn't directed at him. There might have public events during which Tywin was wary of laughter because it remembered him of events during which Tytos was laughed at, but there is no reason to believe this extended to smaller circles. Especially not while he and Aerys were still close and the king had no reason to ridicule Tywin.

I'm not sure why Tywin took as much shit from Aerys and his cronies as he did. Why would anyone who is routinely made the laughingstock of the court believe the king would ever allow him to marry his son to the Crown Prince? That doesn't make much sense.

What makes you believe that Tywin is saying the truth when he says 'Since I cannot prove you aren't mine'?

Tywin obviously doesn't want Tyrion (or anyone else) realize/know that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. That's the whole point of raising him as his son, after all. Secretly raising the king's bastard is better than everybody knowing that you have been cuckolded by the king. But that doesn't mean that Tywin doesn't know the truth or doesn't have 'proof'.

Oh, and since we don't know how long the anniversary tourney was, and how long the guests were there there is no reason to believe Joanna would have left KL the next day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2016 at 8:04 PM, Weirdo said:

Nice! Three heads, and a dragon mentioned. You know, a kestrel is a small red falcon. So we have one bird of small stature in Lannister red. The gull is white, perhaps referencing Dany's hair. And the crow, that's obvious.

Wow -- I am always impressed at people who can pick out symbolism and foreshadowing of that nature. I am really bad at seeing that kind of symbolism and foreshadowing. Thanks to you and LM for these insights. If LM's observation about Tyrion as the third head could be dismissed (it shouldn't be, but we know how some people are), the connection with the three birds to Jon, Dany and Tyrion seems to make dismissal that much harder (not that I think any of the deniers actually will be convinced).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys,

I said nothing about Joanna leaving the next day. I said she would return to Casterly Rock, I did not say when, or how long/quickly after the feast where the insult was made.

As to why I'd say that "since I cannot proof" is not a lie... There were 25 years between Tyrion's birth and the start of the series. If Tywin had known for certainty that Tyrion was Aerys's son, he had plenty of time to act on it. And we have gotten zero hints of any such for those years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×