Sansa and Arya

[Winter's Cold]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rubbish. You don't know that, neither do I. In fact, the only bit of clue we have regarding this in Bran's case is in one of his visions when he realises a man is about to have his head chopped off.

 

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. 

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Was this person a Night's Watch deserter? Bran may not approve of killing captive people but that does not mean he wouldn't kill someone who deserted the Night's Watch. 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, delspark said:

I should have edited the post before you got it in the wrong sense. You said LF didn't have a plot armour. I'm saying he did because whatever Tyrion faced in Eyrie was not simple. It was not a silly issue to forget telling his dad or hide it from him. 

Tywin attacked Riverlands when he heard Tyrion was captured. Do you think he wouldn't have believed Tyrion when he told him everything was due to LF?

what was due to LF ? what proof did Tyrion have to use against Littlefinger? Littlefinger could just deny he told the Starks anything or he just could say he mis-remembered or was drunk , Tyrion had nothing but the story from two dead traitors.  Littlefinger was one of the main reasons that the Lannisters won the war and he was still needed to bring the Vale into the Iron Throne , that's why he was given The Lordship of the Riverlands and Harrenhall so you think that Tywin is going to make a big deal about some story of  "who's knife was it anyway" from Tyrion ? . Tywin had enough on his plate to worry about then to give a crap about Tyrion's beef with Littlefinger especially after the Blackwater . He barely gave Tyrion the time of day . 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

I stated that all other Stark children would definitely execute Dareon "except perhaps Sansa" because I'm not sure what she would do. She might just decide to do nothing as she's been passive for most of the series. Other characters typically act on Sansa rather than Sansa acting on other characters. She also wouldn't have the means to kill Dareon as she has never killed anyone herself nor does she have a massive direwolf that can do it for her.

This is how I see it.

Robb - Executed Lord Karstark, would definitely kill Dareon

Jon - Executed Janos Slynt, would definitely kill Dareon

Sansa - Has not killed or direct harmed a single character in the novels, has not ordered the deaths of any character either, unlikely to kill Dareon

Bran - Was present at the execution of a Night's Watch deserter and was also Lord of Winterfell at one point, would definitely kill Dareon

Arya - no need to speculate since she did kill Dareon

Rickon - very angry character and also has a a very fierce direwolf, might kill Dareon

 

That's your opinion, not somenthing that's backed by textual evidence. Just b/c Bran watched a deserter be executed doesn't mean he'd do the same. And it doesn't mean that he wouldn't either. The thing is, I am capable of admitting that I don't know and can't state [especially] with any degree of certainty how character A would behave in X situation. But your complaint about the other poster was that whatever s/he said was based only on her/his opinion, while you're doing the exact same thing. 

[Blackfish Tully]

31 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

This is the main problem with your arguments. It's based on what you believe rather what's presented in the text. In the books Sansa shows that she trusts Myranda Royce and Littlefinger through her actions and thoughts. Contrast this with Arya's behavior towards the faceless men. Arya hides needle from them. Arya kills Dareon when she was not ordered to. Arya keeps the the secret of her ability to skinchange animals from the Kindly Man. It's pretty clear that Arya distrusts the faceless men and is merely using them to fulfill her own agenda. 

show me one place in the "text" where Sansa shows that she trusts Myranda Royce? 

Does she ever tell her who she is ? no of course not because she does not trust her or anyone else, if she trusted her or Bronze Yohn or anybody in the Vale she would tell them who she she is . But i'm sure you will provide me with a quote from the text where she reveals herself to Myranda because your argument is based on what's presented in the text while mine is just what i believe. 

She doesn't trust Littlefinger either but is forced by circumstance to go along with whatever he says . 

[Winter's Cold]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's your opinion, not somenthing that's backed by textual evidence. Just b/c Bran watched a deserter be executed doesn't mean he'd do the same. And it doesn't mean that he wouldn't either. The thing is, I am capable of admitting that I don't know and can't state [especially] with any degree of certainty how character A would behave in X situation. But your complaint about the other poster was that whatever s/he said was based only on her/his opinion, while you're doing the exact same thing. 

I indicated my uncertainty in my original statement where I said that all Stark children would execute Dareon except perhaps Sansa to indicate that i'm unsure what Sansa would do. My opinion that the other Stark children would kill him is at least supported by some textual evidence while the other poster just directly stated that he believed that Sansa doesn't trust Myranda Royce and Littlefinger while the text indicates otherwise.

[Winter's Cold]

1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:

show me one place in the "text" where Sansa shows that she trusts Myranda Royce? 

Does she ever tell her who she is ? no of course not because she does not trust her or anyone else, if she trusted her or Bronze Yohn or anybody in the Vale she would tell them who she she is . But i'm sure you will provide me with a quote from the text where she reveals herself to Myranda because your argument is based on what's presented in the text while mine is just what i believe. 

She doesn't trust Littlefinger either but is forced by circumstance to go along with whatever he says .

She doesn't reveal herself to anyone else in the Vale because she's following Littlefinger's instructions. Doesn't that indicate that she trusts Littlefinger? She also considers Myranda as her friend and even compares her with her old friend Jeyne Poole. You're right that this doesn't explicitly show that she trusts Myranda. But it definitely is not evidence for your argument that she distrusts her either.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Was this person a Night's Watch deserter? Bran may not approve of killing captive people but that does not mean he wouldn't kill someone who deserted the Night's Watch. 

Was he not a deserter? Do we know? And no, it doesn't mean he wouldn't kill a deserter. Nor does it mean he would. And that's my point. Until such time as he is in that situation, we can speculate all we want, but none of us know jack. 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

I indicated my uncertainty in my original statement where I said that all Stark children would execute Dareon except perhaps Sansa to indicate that i'm unsure what Sansa would do. My opinion that the other Stark children would kill him is at least supported by some textual evidence while the other poster just directly stated that he believed that Sansa doesn't trust Myranda Royce and Littlefinger while the text indicates otherwise.

What evidence, where? B/c Bran watched Ned execute Gared? That's not evidence of anything. What else have you got?

[delspark]

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

show me one place in the "text" where Sansa shows that she trusts Myranda Royce? 

Does she ever tell her who she is ? no of course not because she does not trust her or anyone else, if she trusted her or Bronze Yohn or anybody in the Vale she would tell them who she she is . But i'm sure you will provide me with a quote from the text where she reveals herself to Myranda because your argument is based on what's presented in the text while mine is just what i believe. 

She doesn't trust Littlefinger either but is forced by circumstance to go along with whatever he says . 

Spoiler

    Petyr was not at the quintains, nor anywhere in the yard, but as she turned to go a woman’s voice called out. “Alayne!” cried Myranda Royce, from a carved stone bench beneath a beech tree, where she was seated between two men. She looked in need of rescue. Smiling, Alayne walked toward her friend.

 

Sansa considers Myranda as friend. Therefore in future she may reveal her secrets.

[Blackfish Tully]

17 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

She doesn't reveal herself to anyone else in the Vale because she's following Littlefinger's instructions. Doesn't that indicate that she trusts Littlefinger? She also considers Myranda as her friend and even compares her with her old friend Jeyne Poole. You're right that this doesn't explicitly show that she trusts Myranda. But it definitely is not evidence for your argument that she distrusts her either.

following someone instructions because you have no choice is a long way from trusting them .

Considering someone your friend does not mean you trust them with your biggest secrets, if she trusted Myranda then she would tell her who she is  but she clearly does not .  

[delspark]

47 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 Littlefinger was one of the main reasons that the Lannisters won the war and he was still needed to bring the Vale into the Iron Throne , that's why he was given The Lordship of the Riverlands and Harrenhall so you think that Tywin is going to make a big deal about some story of  "who's knife was it anyway" from Tyrion ? . 

There your securing LF by dismissing his case as winning IT for them and bringing Vale into Lannister's control. Just because of it, Tywin won't care about Tyrion's accusations? Plot armour noted.

[delspark]

19 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

following someone instructions because you have no choice is a long way from trusting them .

Considering someone your friend does not mean you trust them with your biggest secrets, if she trusted Myranda then she would tell her who she is  but she clearly does not .  

People don't blindly follow instructions if they do not trust the outcome. She doesn't use her brain to think so she thinks she has no choices.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 minutes ago, delspark said:

There your securing LF by dismissing his case as winning IT for them and bringing Vale into Lannister's control. Just because of it, Tywin won't care about Tyrion's accusations? Plot armour noted.

What proof does Tyrion have ? why would Tywin believe any of it? Tywin is going to kill someone who was been one of the Lannister's most valuable ally and is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (the first new Lord Paramount in 300 years) because of some story that may or not be true by two people who  are dead and gone. After the Blackwater Tywin pretty much dismissed Tyrion so why would he all of the sudden put any stock in what he says. You may want to redefine what plot armor is. 

[Blackfish Tully]

9 minutes ago, delspark said:

There your securing LF by dismissing his case as winning IT for them and bringing Vale into Lannister's control. Just because of it, Tywin won't care about Tyrion's accusations? Plot armour noted.

what happens when Tywin questions Littlefinger about the knife and Littlefinger simply states that he was drunk that day and may have mis remembered who had lost the knife . What does Tyrion do then? he has no proof and the Starks are both dead so it would just go nowhere . 

That's why he never said anything to his father . He wanted to get more proof about Littlefinger before he made a move against him. 

 

[delspark]

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

What proof does Tyrion have ? why would Tywin believe any of it? Tywin is going to kill someone who was been one of the Lannister's most valuable ally and is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (the first new Lord Paramount in 300 years) because of some story that may or not be true by two people who  are dead and gone. After the Blackwater Tywin pretty much dismissed Tyrion so why would he all of the sudden put any stock in what he says. You may want to redefine what plot armor is. 

Before Blackwater Tywin sends Tyrion to KL to stop Cersie from doing more foolish things. This shows Tywin does trust his son.

After Blackwater, Tyrion was wounded so how could he have said about LF in such  condition. Before Tyrion recovered and could rattle about LF, he was granted with title Lord Paramount.  How is this not giving an edge to LF's arc

[Blackfish Tully]

9 minutes ago, delspark said:

People don't blindly follow instructions if they do not trust the outcome. She doesn't use her brain to think so she thinks she has no choices.

people blindly follow instructions all the time , that's a pretty big part of life , When your parent or boss or teacher or cops ect.. give you an instruction you follow it whether or not you trust the outcome simply because that's the way life is. 

frankly she still pretty much a child in AFFC and on the run from the Iron Throne so to expect her to make life changing decisions and judging her as not very bright because she doesn't if pretty unfair. 

Comparing her to Arya is a little unfair , Arya happened to run into a faceless man and that changed her life , what are the odds of that happening? 

[Bran the Shipper]

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have the same opinion on Sansa as Joffrey does.  I guess they must be right since Sansa herself admits it to be true

Quote

I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says.  (CoK)

Personally I like Sansa, she's not your standard heroic character, but that is what I like about her.  Plus it seems like a lot of people underestimate her.  Yes she would not have survived Arya's path through the riverlands, but I doubt Arya would have survived Sansa's imprisonment in King's Landing.  Both girls have their own skills and neither seems to be more talented than the other, they are just skilled in different ways.

[chrisdaw]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She did recognise Brienne, someone Catelyn had known for a little while only. Why on earth wouldn't she recognise one of her own daughters?

She accepted they were lost to her while she lived.

[Winter's Cold]

38 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have the same opinion on Sansa as Joffrey does.  I guess they must be right since Sansa herself admits it to be true

Personally I like Sansa, she's not your standard heroic character, but that is what I like about her.  Plus it seems like a lot of people underestimate her.  Yes she would not have survived Arya's path through the riverlands, but I doubt Arya would have survived Sansa's imprisonment in King's Landing.  Both girls have their own skills and neither seems to be more talented than the other, they are just skilled in different ways.

A lot of people on this forum think that she'll become Littlefinger 2.0 or good Queen Alysanne the second. She is thought to be vastly more competent than she is. In my eyes, she's just an ordinary Westerosi highborn maiden. If she starts manipulating Littlefinger instead of just obeying him, then I'll change my judgement.

Arya survived Harrenhal. There's no reason she could not survive King's Landing especially if her life is the only one that can be exchanged for Jaime's. 

[Isobel Harper]

7 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

I stated that all other Stark children would definitely execute Dareon "except perhaps Sansa" because I'm not sure what she would do. She might just decide to do nothing as she's been passive for most of the series. Other characters typically act on Sansa rather than Sansa acting on other characters. She also wouldn't have the means to kill Dareon as she has never killed anyone herself nor does she have a massive direwolf that can do it for her.

This is how I see it.

Robb - Executed Lord Karstark, would definitely kill Dareon

Jon - Executed Janos Slynt, would definitely kill Dareon

Sansa - Has not killed or directly harmed a single character in the novels, has not ordered the deaths of any character either, unlikely to kill Dareon

Bran - Was present at the execution of a Night's Watch deserter and was also Lord of Winterfell at one point, would definitely kill Dareon

Arya - no need to speculate since she did kill Dareon

Rickon - very angry character and also has a a very fierce direwolf, might kill Dareon

 

She'd tattle-tale on him and get him executed.