Sansa and Arya

[Winter's Cold]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That's right, her goals and thinking are in the immediate, she doesn't think on or care to engineer any greater outcome than that and she has shown no inclination towards it. Indeed, that she gives the ramifications of her actions a slight thought after satisfying herself is telling, watch for her murder to have greater undesired effects, maybe cause more blood, sway the course of the election or most probably end with an innocent person being blamed and punished for her crime.

Isn't that similar to what Varys says happens when nobles play their game of thrones. According to this view Arya is a player. Im sure many players set out to accomplish their goals regardless of the bloodshed it causes. Arya has shown that she can plan out an impromptu murder while still considering the political effects. She also successfully planned a successful escape from Harrenhal and she obtained items she and her party needed to avoid danger once they escaped. Thus, she's quite capable of coming up with plans and executing. Sansa instead follows the plans of other people.

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Comparatively what Sansa at this particular point has accomplished or where her arc is at is not important, they're not going to meet before Sansa is out of the Vale where GRRM has set up her mini game board, it's where she's headed that matters, and it's greatly signaled that she is for a bigger picture in the short term than Arya.

She's still a piece on Littlefinger's game board and doesn't have  a game board of her own. Her main goal appears to be living a happy life and following Littlefinger's orders. Whether that's poisoning her cousin for political gain, framing someone else from the murder of her aunt, or marrying someone, in all three cases she will obey Littlefinger or Petyr as she now calls him. She seems to be quite similar to Lysa in terms of behavior. Did you think Lysa was a player or a pawn?

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

At which point she'll have all that experience draw upon having watched Margaery, Cersei and LF in their various failures and successes. No, that was someone else.

When does Sansa reflect on the strategies of Margaery and Cersei? She can maybe mimic what Littlefinger's doing but his primary expertise is currency manipulation something that Sansa is not being taught and also something that she may not have the capacity to learn. When Sansa begins to actively plan out her own strategies, reflect on actions that other players have made, or attempt to predict  and understand Littlefinger's actions and goals, that's when she will be a player not before. Right now she's a little bird that is trying its best to repeat everything told to her by her master Littlefinger.

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

No, murdering someone and sparing the smallest thought for the ramifications on the run afterwards is not what anyone means when they refer to a player in the game of thrones. Nor does planning an escape.

Yes, Sansa is not yet a player. You don't need that many words to get there as that is not the argument, in fact it's what you quoted.

21 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

When Sansa begins to actively plan out her own strategies, reflect on actions that other players have made, or attempt to predict  and understand Littlefinger's actions and goals, that's when she will be a player not before.

Sansa will be a player when she's a player, that's very insightful and all, but rather beside the point in a thread about what the future may hold.

[Pikachu101]

I like to think Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros and Arya's her right had

But in all seriousness Sansa and Arya (as well as Tyrion) represent the political side of asoiaf so their endgame will inevitably be something to do with just that.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

8 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I like to think Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros and Arya's her right had

That's a really bad choice given that Arya is a known leftie 

[Winter's Cold]

44 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No, murdering someone and sparing the smallest thought for the ramifications on the run afterwards is not what anyone means when they refer to a player in the game of thrones. Nor does planning an escape.

Yes, Sansa is not yet a player. You don't need that many words to get there as that is not the argument, in fact it's what you quoted.

Sansa will be a player when she's a player, that's very insightful and all, but rather beside the point in a thread about what the future may hold.

The point is that Arya has more potential as a player than Sansa so it makes little sense for Sansa to direct Arya rather than the other way around. Arya's thoughts on the political ramifications on her assassination and her successful executed plans show that Arya understands the consequences of her own actions and as such doesn't need anyone to guide her.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

I like to think Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros and Arya's her right had

But in all seriousness Sansa and Arya (as well as Tyrion) represent the political side of asoiaf so their endgame will inevitably be something to do with just that.  

About that... One of my posts that were lost in the great purge of 2015:

Spoiler

In many analyses and opinions all over the board, there is a deeply incorporated misconception that ASOIAF has two completely separate storylines – the magical and the political. The problem simply isn’t in the opinion that story is composed of two parts, but in overwhelming opinion that they are somehow independent of each other and that there are characters whose stories belong to one of those aspects. Needless to say, I find this opinion rather simplistic and I will try with few examples to show you in this thread that these two aspects are revolving around each other and that there is no storyline that isn’t in many aspects influenced by both.

First, I will deal with how this opinion became so incorporated in some readers’ minds. When we see how ASOIAF is divided, there is both geographical and almost thematic division. One part is Daenerys in the Essos with her dragons, second is Jon at the Wall preparing for invasion of the Others and lastly is the one of political struggle between several claimants to Iron Throne and several independence movements in Westeros. The geographical division with most of the characters being unaware of the events that are not crucial to their story made a lot of us thinking separately about two points of story – mythological part which contains dragons, shadow-babies and ice zombies and the one where several families are fighting in game of thrones. The separation is enhanced with most of the POVs in Westeros who are part of political struggle are completely unaware of the existence of the magical portion of the story.

This of course creates a lot of different arguments who varies in both depth and correctness. From claiming that some characters will never be involved with “magic stuff” like Sansa to those who believe that some characters won’t mind about the political struggle in the dawn of the new, much worse and dangerous war. Some of these arguments omits that some of those characters who are not involved in “magic stuff” are already involved, and that those, like Jon or Dany, even with their magical component attached to their stories have quite the connection with civil wars, rebellions, dynastic feuds etc.

Basically, what I want to say is that one doesn’t exist without another. Every magical component can easily be a strong influence in the political story, as politics determine a lot when it comes to who’s going to be who in the magical portion of the story. Let we take dragons as an example. Without any doubt, dragons as mystical creatures belong to the magical portion of the story. But, from what we know about Westerosi past and present, dragons have been used as the tool for obtaining political power. From Aegon the Conqueror who conquered Westeros with dragons to Dance of dragons where these creatures have been used in family bloodletting, dragons simply never existed outside of the realm of what we can call “game of thrones” or simply, politics. We also expect Dance of dragons 2.0 between Aegon and Dany, which will be political confrontation for Iron Throne. On the other hand, we have Jon, whose role we mostly see in the War for Dawn, but his origin, with questionable legitimacy and a will naming him an heir to one of kingdoms points that Jon will be involved in the political struggle as well. Tyrion Lannister, one of the key players of game of thrones is heavily foreshadowed to be one of the riders, or at least to be involved at some point with dragons. Stannis Baratheon uses Melisandre as the goal to obtain the Throne, as she is using him as a figure for the war she plans to have.

In conclusion, there are no separate portions of ASOIAF, regardless of how it may appear. ASOIAF is intricate web of fantasy and politics where pinning characters down to a certain aspect usually is a mistake.

 

2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

When does Sansa reflect on the strategies of Margaery and Cersei? She can maybe mimic what Littlefinger's doing but his primary expertise is currency manipulation something that Sansa is not being taught and also something that she may not have the capacity to learn. When Sansa begins to actively plan out her own strategies, reflect on actions that other players have made, or attempt to predict  and understand Littlefinger's actions and goals, that's when she will be a player not before. Right now she's a little bird that is trying its best to repeat everything told to her by her master Littlefinger. 

TWOW spoilers ahead:

Spoiler

Well, in Alayne chapter she has been doing that. She has tried to figure exactly what LF wants, she reflects on Harry and she started being indispensable in the life of one of the most important persons in Westeros. 

I wouldn't say that makes her a player, but she is currently playing one game - to survive. She is being a little bird in that, because that is all she can. She is listening and repeating whatever they tell her. I do believe GRRM has plans for her and I doubt she will be "little bird" to the end of the story.

 

[Joan Jett]

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[Joan Jett]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

That's a really bad choice given that Arya is a known leftie 

Good one  

[Blackfish Tully]

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Isn't that similar to what Varys says happens when nobles play their game of thrones. According to this view Arya is a player. Im sure many players set out to accomplish their goals regardless of the bloodshed it causes. Arya has shown that she can plan out an impromptu murder while still considering the political effects. She also successfully planned a successful escape from Harrenhal and she obtained items she and her party needed to avoid danger once they escaped. Thus, she's quite capable of coming up with plans and executing. Sansa instead follows the plans of other people.

She's still a piece on Littlefinger's game board and doesn't have  a game board of her own. Her main goal appears to be living a happy life and following Littlefinger's orders. Whether that's poisoning her cousin for political gain, framing someone else from the murder of her aunt, or marrying someone, in all three cases she will obey Littlefinger or Petyr as she now calls him. She seems to be quite similar to Lysa in terms of behavior. Did you think Lysa was a player or a pawn?

When does Sansa reflect on the strategies of Margaery and Cersei? She can maybe mimic what Littlefinger's doing but his primary expertise is currency manipulation something that Sansa is not being taught and also something that she may not have the capacity to learn. When Sansa begins to actively plan out her own strategies, reflect on actions that other players have made, or attempt to predict  and understand Littlefinger's actions and goals, that's when she will be a player not before. Right now she's a little bird that is trying its best to repeat everything told to her by her master Littlefinger.

 

Do you know just how difficult it would be to do what Sansa has done in becoming "Alayne" ? To stay Alayne 24 hours a day and not only manage it but to thrive as Alayne , she's learning how to interact with  all manner of Lords and Knights and small folk , she's learning how to use her beauty to her advantage . If you read her POV very carefully you realize just how smart she is , once she brings all that together with her name and family connections she is going to be a formidable opponent. There is no doubt that Arya will be massively dangerous person when she completes her training (or even if she leaves before her training is complete) but Sansa has the potential  to be as much or even more dangerous just in a different way. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, delspark said:

"Here, girl." Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey.

He steps between them here, and stops her.  Did she stop because the Hound stopped her or because the moment was lost because he stepped between them?  Either way, it was the Hound's action that prevented Sansa acting. 

[Isobel Harper]

Concerning "weapons" that Arya and Sansa are using... (discussing WoW sample chapters)

Spoiler

...there is a little parallel in both the Mercy and Alayne chapter that I find worth noting.  Both Arya and Sansa use their "weapons" with their fingers; Arya uses a poisoned finger to slice Raff's artery in his thigh, and Sansa uses her finger as a means of sexuality as manipulation.  Both utilize seduction.  In both chapters, it features quite prominently the girls running a finger down a man's (Raff's and Harrys') skin at the end.

"I know." She slipped her hand between his legs, and felt how hard he was through the wool of his breeches.

"The laces," he urged her. "Be a sweet girl and undo them." Instead she slid her finger down along the inside of his thigh. He gave a grunt. "Damn, be careful there, you—"

Mercy gave a gasp and stepped away, her face confused and frightened. "You're bleeding."  (Mercy)

 

Robert wiped his nose. "But I want—"

She put a finger to his lips. "I know what you want, but it cannot be. I am no fit wife for you. I am bastard born."

...

"I wouldn't let them hurt you!" Lord Robert said. "If they try I will make them all fly." His hand began to tremble.

Alayne stroked his fingers. "There, my Sweetrobin, be still now." When the shaking passed, she said, "You must have a proper wife, a trueborn maid of noble birth."

...

"The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can't I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she's carrying his bastard."

Benjicot should learn to keep his fool's mouth shut. "Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?" She pulled her fingers from his grasp. "Would you dishonor me that way?"

...

...

He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white. And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples. She ran one finger down his cheek. "Should we ever wed, you'll have to send Saffron back to her father. I'll be all the spice you'll want."

 

 

 

[Winter's Cold]

15 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Do you know just how difficult it would be to do what Sansa has done in becoming "Alayne" ? To stay Alayne 24 hours a day and not only manage it but to thrive as Alayne , she's learning how to interact with  all manner of Lords and Knights and small folk , she's learning how to use her beauty to her advantage . If you read her POV very carefully you realize just how smart she is , once she brings all that together with her name and family connections she is going to be a formidable opponent. There is no doubt that Arya will be massively dangerous person when she completes her training (or even if she leaves before her training is complete) but Sansa has the potential  to be as much or even more dangerous just in a different way. 

Arya has had to hide her identity from the moment she left King's Landing. Now with the faceless men she takes on multiple identities with ease. If you're using the Alayne identity as proof of Sansa's worth then what Arya has accomplished is much more difficult. Sansa interacted with lords, knights and small folk with Winterfell as well. She's doing the same as Alayne. I'm not sure why that's a difficult transition. Sansa is more like Cersei than Bran, Tyrion, Arya or any of the other intelligent characters. I don't recally any of the latter characters misremembering events. I'm not sure how Sansa could be more dangerous than Arya who has the potential to be a face shifting, skinchanging assassin. Even if she becomes a Littlefinger level player, she could still be easily assassinated by a faceless man. Kevan was the royal regent, the most politically powerful person in King's Landing. Yet when his actions conflicted with Varys' plans, he was murdered immediately proving that Varys the assassin was far more dangerous than Kevan the regent. 

[Blackfish Tully]

40 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Arya has had to hide her identity from the moment she left King's Landing. Now with the faceless men she takes on multiple identities with ease. If you're using the Alayne identity as proof of Sansa's worth then what Arya has accomplished is much more difficult. Sansa interacted with lords, knights and small folk with Winterfell as well. She's doing the same as Alayne. I'm not sure why that's a difficult transition. Sansa is more like Cersei than Bran, Tyrion, Arya or any of the other intelligent characters. I don't recally any of the latter characters misremembering events. I'm not sure how Sansa could be more dangerous than Arya who has the potential to be a face shifting, skinchanging assassin. Even if she becomes a Littlefinger level player, she could still be easily assassinated by a faceless man. Kevan was the royal regent, the most politically powerful person in King's Landing. Yet when his actions conflicted with Varys' plans, he was murdered immediately proving that Varys the assassin was far more dangerous than Kevan the regent. 

just because Kevin was killed by Varys does not mean that he was not a powerful or dangerous figure . Was Tywin any less powerful or dangerous becaus he was murdered by a dwarf? With your logic there are no powerful people because any one of them can be murdered by a faceless man. There are different ways to be powerful and Arya and Sansa will both be powerful in their own ways . Sansa could potentially have armies that are moving on her command or desire. Frankly the problem with Sansa is that her POVs are so much more subtle then the other POVs that it's easy to miss how smart she is unless you read them really carefully. 

[Joan Jett]

21 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

just because Kevin was killed by Varys does not mean that he was not a powerful or dangerous figure . Was Tywin any less powerful or dangerous becaus he was murdered by a dwarf? With your logic there are no powerful people because any one of them can be murdered by a faceless man. There are different ways to be powerful and Arya and Sansa will both be powerful in their own ways . Sansa could potentially have armies that are moving on her command or desire. Frankly the problem with Sansa is that her POVs are so much more subtle then the other POVs that it's easy to miss how smart she is unless you read them really carefully. 

You sound really pretentious, bro. 

Anyway I agree that Sansa and Arya both have the potential to be powerful in their own ways. Arya also has the potential to have armies moving on her command. Her direwolf, Nymeria, who was named after a queen, is currently the head of a huge pack of wolves roaming the riverlands. That fact by itself could easily be foreshadowing due to the Starks' strong spiritual connections to their wolves.

[Winter's Cold]

9 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

just because Kevin was killed by Varys does not mean that he was not a powerful or dangerous figure . Was Tywin any less powerful or dangerous becaus he was murdered by a dwarf? With your logic there are no powerful people because any one of them can be murdered by a faceless man. There are different ways to be powerful and Arya and Sansa will both be powerful in their own ways . Sansa could potentially have armies that are moving on her command or desire. Frankly the problem with Sansa is that her POVs are so much more subtle then the other POVs that it's easy to miss how smart she is unless you read them really carefully. 

No Tywin and Keven were both powerful and dangerous. Faceless men are simply far more dangerous. That's why I view Arya as far more dangerous than Sansa. Sansa is not military commander so there's no armies she can command. The power in the Vale belongs to Littlefinger, Sweetrobin and potentially Harry not Sansa. The North has never had a female ruler and it's quite likely that the Northern lords would prefer Rickon or Jon over her. And even if she does command armies, she can be simply assassinated by a faceless men. That's why they're more powerful. GRRM uses her POV as a window into King's Landing, the Vale and Littlefinger's machinations. If she were too intelligent, then she would be able to reveal information that GRRM prefers to keep hidden. Perhaps that's what you mean by subtlety? 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

No Tywin and Keven were both powerful and dangerous. Faceless men are simply far more dangerous. That's why I view Arya as far more dangerous than Sansa. Sansa is not military commander so there's no armies she can command. The power in the Vale belongs to Littlefinger, Sweetrobin and potentially Harry not Sansa. The North has never had a female ruler and it's quite likely that the Northern lords would prefer Rickon or Jon over her. And even if she does command armies, she can be simply assassinated by a faceless men. That's why they're more powerful. GRRM uses her POV as a window into King's Landing, the Vale and Littlefinger's machinations. If she were too intelligent, then she would be able to reveal information that GRRM prefers to keep hidden. Perhaps that's what you mean by subtlety? 

No i mean exactly what i said , Sansa is very intelligent and just like many women in a society such as Westeroes that intelligence would never have been revealed if she would have gone through the standard marrying a powerful Lord and keeping his Castle destiny that she was in line for. Because of what she has gone through and  what she has in front of her we will see her use her  intelligence and wits and beauty to become one of the most powerful players of the game .

She's the only one we know of who figured out that Lyn Cordray was working for Littlefinger , that and the little things she perceives and figures out are what i'm talking about when i say subtle , you have to really read her POVs carefully to get it and many do not. 

 

[Mladen]

28 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

No Tywin and Keven were both powerful and dangerous. Faceless men are simply far more dangerous. That's why I view Arya as far more dangerous than Sansa. Sansa is not military commander so there's no armies she can command. The power in the Vale belongs to Littlefinger, Sweetrobin and potentially Harry not Sansa.

It is not like Arya has FM around her finger. Nor will she ever.

 

Anyway, several years ago, whenever we would have discussed how stupid Sansa is, there was a way of pointing otherwise. Who can tell me exactly how is Harry the heir of the Vale? I swear to God, I have read books cover to cover three times and like, I suppose many of us, am completely lost what is the precise connection between Harry and Jon Arryn. And somehow, this little girl figured it in the matter of moments. Yes, it certainly doesn't make her a player or some great mastermind, but she is not stupid.

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

It is not like Arya has FM around her finger. Nor will she ever.

Agree. 

Spoiler

Will her murder of Raff cause the FM to break off with her?  It seems from the text to be a murder of opportunity for Arya and not a planned hit.  If so, then what?  Back to Westeros?  The hit with the insurance man was very subtle and avoiding detection, especially as a FM hit was paramount.   Not so for the bloody murder of Raff.  Which begs the question,  is she truly suitable for being an FM, or too driven by revenge that she's not?

 

[Blackfish Tully]

 

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

It is not like Arya has FM around her finger. Nor will she ever.

 

Anyway, several years ago, whenever we would have discussed how stupid Sansa is, there was a way of pointing otherwise. Who can tell me exactly how is Harry the heir of the Vale? I swear to God, I have read books cover to cover three times and like, I suppose many of us, am completely lost what is the precise connection between Harry and Jon Arryn. And somehow, this little girl figured it in the matter of moments. Yes, it certainly doesn't make her a player or some great mastermind, but she is not stupid.

I agree , Also would anybody have figured out that Lyn Cordray was working for Littlefinger is he did not tell us? 

Sansa figured it out , is she a mastermind? i have no idea but to dismiss her because she was a silly , naive child is a little foolish . 

She's being shaped by the horrible events that have happened to her and she's being transformed into something else ( just like Arya) 

 

[Company of the Cat]

On 3/7/2016 at 5:26 AM, Isobel Harper said:

In regards to Sansa's future in connection to Brienne, I have a theory that Robb made Jon his heir to Winterfell and Sansa Shella Whent's heir to Harrenhal.  Long story short, this would put Sansa in a position of a diplomat to the south, while keeping Lannisters at a disadvantage geographically and Sansa's heirs subservient to Tully. 

House Lothston ruled Harrenhal before House Whent was granted its rights.  House Whent (which the Stark children are related to through Minisa Whent, Catelyn's mother) is quite possibly related to House Lothston in some way due to the similarities of their sigils.  Brienne carries a Lothston shield in Feast, and eventually has it repainted.  She also carries Oathkeeper, which is Ice reforged.  Ultimately, Brienne carries arms and shield representing the Stark children's ancestory in a new form.  This renders most significant in regards to Sansa as she searches for throughout Feast.  Ultimately, as the heir to Harrenhal, Sansa would be a Stark "in a new form" herself, i.e. form a cadet branch of Starks in the Riverlands.

I've read vague mentions of this theory and I have to say, it's quite fascinating. The only problem I have with this is that even though Harrenhal is constantly mentioned in the text, there's no indication of Robb or even Catelyn thinking about their connection to the Whents/Lothstons. This won't discredit the theory, of course. I'm just naturally skeptical. The connection between Starks and Harrenhal, not just in history but also in some of their arcs and the people who are related their arcs in some way ( LF, Brienne, Jaime) does seem to indicate something - I'm not sure what.