Sansa and Arya

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Now, to add my opinion, Arya and Sansa are not going to "switch" paths, IMO. I believe that, actually, they are both going to walk their initial paths that they chose for themselves from the very beginning, with the very significant difference that they will do it being fully aware of what it really is about and what it entails, having shed their initial childishly shallow view on what they want to be.

Mind you, I am not using "shallow" in a derogatory sense here; they were very young children, it was only normal to have such a view on what it is to be a lady, or a non-lady. That they had to shed it so early is rather abnormal and most likely to leave scars on them both. But, like Ned said, "Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well" and (to paraphrase Cersei) when winter comes you either grow up or die.

Anyway, as I see it, they are getting overlapping skills in quite a lot of areas so I don't really see them as complementary in that sense - it's of more value in terms of character and mindset.

Spoiler

Especially Arya in the Mercy chapter moves very fast quite deep into the feminine ways to deal mortal blows and get stuff done in general, which was supposed to be more of Sansa's territory before that point.

So I don't think it's very likely that they'll form a team and work together, not for long anyway, although I would expect Ned's quote "you need each other" to prove significant. Could be that its significance lies in the emotional aspect, I don't know. Their reunion is one of the three I mostly want to read about, first two being Arya-Nymeria and Arya-Jon.

On the issues they need to solve: I disagree with downplaying them, from the reader's perspective because it takes away from their dynamics mostly but also because they are important in shaping their characters (mostly Arya's, but "whose" is not the point). It doesn't have to be about the "blame game". On the other hand, I feel like that the hardships they've been through render those issues obsolete, not because they are not important -they ought to be, normally- but because of the magnitude of all these other things that have happened meanwhile and that they were -are- hudge and not normal at all. It's quite sad actually - feels like Theon, after having been tortured, when he thinks to himself that all the things that used to hurt him before were so unimportant compared to the PAIN... So maybe it's going to be more like moving on than actually solving them and that would be part of the bittersweet, as I see it.

Finally, I think that, other than broad strokes (and mostly of thematic support, IMO), we can't be sure -with details, no less- of what the future will bring for those two. They are of the hardest characters to predict and it really amazes me when people claim to have deciphered, in great detail no less, not only where exactly they end up but also how exactly they get there. The author still comes up with new turns in the story, to hear him say it... And, before the latest preview chapter, 

Spoiler

we were discussing with great anticipation about how the welcome feast at the Gates would go and what important and plot-deciding stuff would happen there, only to have it happen off sceen with nothing even remotely memorable happening, resuming the story normally a couple of months later.

So personally I would not feel too comfortable to make such detailed predictions on the particulars of their stories and insist on them as if they had R+L type of clues going on for them.

[Joan Jett]

@chrisdaw

Is this the quote you were talking about?

"Mercy," her friend Daena implored, "Lady Stork has stepped on the hem of her gown again. Come help me sew it up."

They're talking about seeing up a gown. If Daena had said "sew up Lady Stork" then I would consider it. Also if it was foreshadowing then Arya would be helping someone else kill LSH and it wouldn't be her idea. 

 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I sometimes think I am the only fan alive who doesn't see UnCat being put to rest by one of her own children. 

It seems that this idea is very popular, and I really don't see why - I agree with you that it's unfounded, and does not make sense.

I feel it's the product of a narrow-minded and rather dogmatic view on revenge and of the (flawed, IMO) notion that the story *must* have a moralizing end, complying to a very specific view of morals, of course.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

double...

[Mladen]

12 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

On the issues they need to solve: I disagree with downplaying them, from the reader's perspective because it takes away from their dynamics mostly but also because they are important in shaping their characters (mostly Arya's, but "whose" is not the point). It doesn't have to be about the "blame game". On the other hand, I feel like that the hardships they've been through render those issues obsolete, not because they are not important -they ought to be, normally- but because of the magnitude of all these other things that have happened meanwhile and that they were -are- hudge and not normal at all. It's quite sad actually - feels like Theon, after having been tortured, when he thinks to himself that all the things that used to hurt him before were so unimportant compared to the PAIN... So maybe it's going to be more like moving on than actually solving them and that would be part of the bittersweet, as I see it.

I don't think that we need to downplay them in order to understand that there are no some great obstacles to get some sort of peaceful resolution. As I have said, Tyrion and Jaime have issues. Arya and Sansa have a lot to talk about. The process of growing up, especially in circumstances these two grew up, indeed makes some issues obsolete but I do expect to see some self-reflection on both girls' parts and in many way, a better understanding for each other. Especially having in mind, they are getting closer to each other's perspective in their respective storylines. I do think, if and when they meet, it won't be easy but also it won't be as difficult as some would assume. Because at the end of the day, we have seen with how much love Sansa recalls Arya as well as how much Arya wants to see her sister ("I will bow like a proper lady, she will like that" line). The bittersweetness in this case is like you said, moving on, but also perhaps in lost opportunities for the two of them to really bond as they perhaps eventually would. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ It's true that their experiences have made them more receptive and appreciative of each other's path. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not even sure if this will come into play at all, since their experiences also include an externally enforced sense of "us" by being hunted/punished simply for being a Stark, no matter who they are/were as individuals. On the contrary Tywin and Cersei and ultimately (and more profoundly) Jaime, steadily undermine Tyrion's initially strong sense of "us".

[Mladen]

18 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

^ It's true that their experiences have made them more receptive and appreciative of each other's path. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not even sure if this will come into play at all, since their experiences also include an externally enforced sense of "us" by being hunted/punished simply for being a Stark, no matter who they are/were as individuals. On the contrary Tywin and Cersei and ultimately (and more profoundly) Jaime, steadily undermine Tyrion's initially strong sense of "us".

I think what we truly know is that they will meet. I mean, Martin said we can expect that much. But what comes after is a mystery. I am also not comfortable with making some detailed predictions about the sisters or how the two of them will cooperate or whether they will indeed do so. I just wanted to express my doubts that probable peaceful resolution between two sisters is not in question. I am not discussing that it would lead to some great alliance.

Also, it is very interesting to discuss how Starks and Lannisters are opposing. Literal cats and dogs of Westerosi jungle. I truly agree with you how Starks are moving towards that sense of "us", Lannisters are falling apart. It will be interesting to see where it will take both families.

[chrisdaw]

On ‎8‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 7:53 AM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

It seems that this idea is very popular, and I really don't see why - I agree with you that it's unfounded, and does not make sense.

I feel it's the product of a narrow-minded and rather dogmatic view on revenge and of the (flawed, IMO) notion that the story *must* have a moralizing end, complying to a very specific view of morals, of course.

It's the apparent narrow minded view of the text. It's not by accident revenge fuelled Arya has found her way to a killing cult who cast no judgement, who discourage it. It's just blatant design, Ned executes a NW deserter, in the name of Robert Baratheon, King of the yadayada, he, Eddard Stark, Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell did so sentence him to death. Meanwhile Arya crosses a NW deserter and murders him in the name of no-one but her own desire for vengeance. The Kindly Man scolds her, asking who is she to play judge, a Lord? A God? Arya doesn't understand the question, yet.

It's pretty clear where the text stands. Uncompromising vengeance is death, it is a sickly skull, a hoarse rasp, it hides and strikes from the shadows, brings out the worst in people and makes honourable knights do shameful things.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

[...] It's pretty clear where the text stands. Uncompromising vengeance is death, it is a sickly skull, a hoarse rasp, it hides and strikes from the shadows, brings out the worst in people and makes honourable knights do shameful things.

And it "naturally" follows that she will kill her own mother, why and how, exactly?

Not to mention that Catelyn's vengeance is, so far, totally justified, proportional and targeted albeit harsh. That's in the text, too.

Text is one thing, readers' interpretation ia another.

[Winter's Cold]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It's the apparent narrow minded view of the text. It's not by accident revenge fuelled Arya has found her way to a killing cult who cast no judgement, who discourage it. It's just blatant design, Ned executes a NW deserter, in the name of Robert Baratheon, King of the yadayada, he, Eddard Stark, Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell did so sentence him to death. Meanwhile Arya crosses a NW deserter and murders him in the name of no-one but her own desire for vengeance. The Kindly Man scolds her, asking who is she to play judge, a Lord? A God? Arya doesn't understand the question, yet.

It's pretty clear where the text stands. Uncompromising vengeance is death, it is a sickly skull, a hoarse rasp, it hides and strikes from the shadows, brings out the worst in people and makes honourable knights do shameful things.

The penalty for desertion is death regardless of time or place. As soon as Dareon openly announced himself as a deserter, he was doomed. Eddard Stark's support of Robert Baratheon as well as his unflinching devotion to honor is what lead him to death. Why should Arya follow the same path?

[LongRider]

After the RW Arya has 'a hole where her heart was' as she was devastated.  Becoming a revenge machine won't fill it up.  The Hound told her 'this is where the heart is' but she couldn't kill him, and as she left him she said 'you should have saved my mother'.  He couldn't of course and deep inside Arya knows this, as she was there and nearly died herself. 

She needs find her heart and fill it up again.  I don't see where killing LSH will do that.   She can kill everyone on her prayer list twice over and then what?  The hole in her heart is still empty.  She needs to get back to Westeros and find her living family to heal her heart and make it whole, as whole as it can be, again.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

9 minutes ago, LongRider said:

She needs find her heart and fill it up again.  I don't see where killing LSH will do that.   She can kill everyone on her prayer list twice over and then what?  The hole in her heart is still empty.  She needs to get back to Westeros and find her living family to heal her heart and make it whole, as whole as it can be, again.

Agreed, and perhaps that's how Ned's quote "you need each other" becomes relevent.

(Though I still see revenge as necessary, but for different reasons than to fill the void.)

[chrisdaw]

50 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

And it "naturally" follows that she will kill her own mother, why and how, exactly?

Not to mention that Catelyn's vengeance is, so far, totally justified, proportional and targeted albeit harsh. That's in the text, too.

Text is one thing, readers' interpretation ia another.

Arya killing Stoneheart is the rejection of total vengeance. Stoneheart is the final destination of Arya's current trajectory, the unliving embodiment of vengeance. She either changes, or she loses all good things about being human, she becomes Stoneheart.

So far, other than her last living act. You can hope she still retains something other than the desire for vengeance but you're swimming way upstream, there's nothing in the positive column and against you have that last living act, the moral compass of Thoros, her having broken the promise she gave Brienne while she lived, the way the BWB characters have deteriorated and her appearance and imagery GRRM is associating with her. Freyyyyy she simply rasps, do you really think she has the capacity to tell an innocent Frey from a guilty? The inclination? At the very end she didn't, do you really think her reaper form will?

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

The penalty for desertion is death regardless of time or place. As soon as Dareon openly announced himself as a deserter, he was doomed. Eddard Stark's support of Robert Baratheon as well as his unflinching devotion to honor is what lead him to death. Why should Arya follow the same path?

Place matters, but not anyone has the right to deal justice, to do the judging and play executioner, if they did then society simply falls into chaos. The realm accepted Robert as their king, Robert and the North accepted Eddard as basically the lord of the North, justice is therefor his duty or the duty of those to whom he delegates (his lesser lords in their domain). Justice in Braavos falls to the Sealord, Dareon's guilt and punishment was for him to determine while he was there.

21 minutes ago, LongRider said:

After the RW Arya has 'a hole where her heart was' as she was devastated.  Becoming a revenge machine won't fill it up.  The Hound told her 'this is where the heart is' but she couldn't kill him, and as she left him she said 'you should have saved my mother'.  He couldn't of course and deep inside Arya knows this, as she was there and nearly died herself. 

She needs find her heart and fill it up again.  I don't see where killing LSH will do that.   She can kill everyone on her prayer list twice over and then what?  The hole in her heart is still empty.  She needs to get back to Westeros and find her living family to heal her heart and make it whole, as whole as it can be, again.

 

It's not her mother anymore, it's a demon, one that will dole out blanket judgement without empathy, one without the capacity for any of the things Arya loved about her. There's only one thing Stoneheart needs, release, Mercy. Last time we saw Needle Arya buried it in some loose stone, it's coming, she will do so again, metaphorically most like but granting her mother mercy and seeing the BWB surrender instead of inevitably slaughtered will be her task. And filling the void left in the Riverlands after the Freys are almost all dead and the BWB disbanded will be Sansas.

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

~~~snip~~~

Place matters, but not anyone has the right to deal justice, to do the judging and play executioner, if they did then society simply falls into chaos. The realm accepted Robert as their king, Robert and the North accepted Eddard as basically the lord of the North, justice is therefor his duty or the duty of those to whom he delegates (his lesser lords in their domain). Justice in Braavos falls to the Sealord, Dareon's guilt and punishment was for him to determine while he was there.

It's not her mother anymore, it's a demon, one that will dole out blanket judgement without empathy, one without the capacity for any of the things Arya loved about her. There's only one thing Stoneheart needs, release, Mercy. Last time we saw Needle Arya buried it in some loose stone, it's coming, she will do so again, metaphorically most like but granting her mother mercy and seeing the BWB surrender instead of inevitably slaughtered will be her task. And filling the void left in the Riverlands after the Freys are almost all dead and the BWB disbanded will be Sansas.

LSH may need mercy but I do not see Arya as the one to give it.  Arya wants her mother and if she meets LSH, well, yes she's an abomination now, but she is still the thing that was her mother.  Don't forget, LSH is not just about revenge, but about finding her daughters. 

After all, she gave Brienne a choice to make if Bri wanted to live.  Why the choice for Bri?  Funny, but Bri wants to find one of her daughters and fulfill her oath to Lady Catlyn.  I don't think LSH gave many of her victims choices like Bri's.

And, hang on to your hat, I agree with you about justice in Braavos, it would be up to the Sealord to determine Daeron's guilt.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

17 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Arya killing Stoneheart is the rejection of total vengeance. Stoneheart is the final destination of Arya's current trajectory, the unliving embodiment of vengeance. She either changes, or she loses all good things about being human, she becomes Stoneheart.

So far, other than her last living act. You can hope she still retains something other than the desire for vengeance but you're swimming way upstream, there's nothing in the positive column and against you have that last living act, the moral compass of Thoros, her having broken the promise she gave Brienne while she lived, the way the BWB characters have deteriorated and her appearance and imagery GRRM is associating with her. Freyyyyy she simply rasps, do you really think she has the capacity to tell an innocent Frey from a guilty? The inclination? At the very end she didn't, do you really think her reaper form will?

No, it's not rejection of vengeance, it's a just because (some readers wish it). Stoneheart has a reason to exist and a business to finish, she will go, like Beric did, when her reason to linger is over. Hint: it's justice delivered.

Her last living act, like it or not, is part of the harshest 'traditions' of her context that is taking hostages and killing them if needed, innocents being a standard choice. Nothing to single her out in particular. And yes, she has the capacity, and does indeed differenciate, as evidenced by conducting trials.

People just don't like UnCat and as a result refuse to see the facts about her actions in the same light as living characters.

 

ETA - Stoneheart does not "need" the so-called mercy; like Beric, she is not bound to the self-preservation instinct of the living. That's an awfully arbitrary projection of some readers' feelings upon what's presented in the text. If rest was what she needed, she would never fucking rise in the first place.

[chrisdaw]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

LSH may need mercy but I do not see Arya as the one to give it.  Arya wants her mother and if she meets LSH, well, yes she's an abomination now, but she is still the thing that was her mother.  Don't forget, LSH is not just about revenge, but about finding her daughters. 

After all, she gave Brienne a choice to make if Bri wanted to live.  Why the choice for Bri?  Funny, but Bri wants to find one of her daughters and fulfill her oath to Lady Catlyn.  I don't think LSH gave many of her victims choices like Bri's.

And, hang on to your hat, I agree with you about justice in Braavos, it would be up to the Sealord to determine Daeron's guilt.

It's an assumption that she wants to find her daughters. She believes both are lost to her. In the event one does turn up that she has the capacity to recognise and accept they still live is very questionable. She gave Brienne a choice, to either die or lure her a bigger fish. She didn't set Brienne free to find her daughters, she set Brienne free to lure to her the man who sent Brienne to find her daughters.

[LongRider]

It's not an assumption she wants to find her daughters, and she gave Bri a choice, not a choice Bri would want, but a choice just the same.  I know what the LSH wants, but that thread isn't finished yet and we don't know how it will play out.  My guess is she doesn't kill Jaime, but the how that would happen I don't know.  GRRM has few twists up his sleeve methinks.

6 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

People just don't like UnCat and as a result refuse to see the facts about her actions in the same light as living characters

Interesting perspective, but I think alot of what you say is accurate, many readers don't like LSH (I don't).  You said, in the same light as living characters do you suggest we should look at her and compare to the living?  That's a new thought to me.  Would you care to expand that a all?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

Interesting perspective, but I think alot of what you say is accurate, many readers don't like LSH (I don't).  You said, in the same light as living characters do you suggest we should look at her and compare to the living?  That's a new thought to me.  Would you care to expand that a all?

I just mean that the "but she's a zombie abomination!" reaction should not come into play when we are examining her actions and her decision making. We should put aside the fact that she's undead and see them for what they are: are her trials fair, for examble? Does she consider all evidence? Are her conclusions based on logic? Simple stuff like that, just like we would examine the decisions and actions of any other character who's not burdened with the dislike for the undead. I guess I could have described it with one single word, "objectively". I think that LS, read like that, comes off as harsh and unforgiving but not as unjust, monstruous etc.

[shizett]

If I may join the conversation, I can see Arya killing LSH because she has characteristics that would permit her to do so without the need for vengence or self-destruction:

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

She needs find her heart and fill it up again.  I don't see where killing LSH will do that.   She can kill everyone on her prayer list twice over and then what?  The hole in her heart is still empty.  She needs to get back to Westeros and find her living family to heal her heart and make it whole, as whole as it can be, again.

I agree with what you completely, but would like to add that she always had a complicated relationship with her mother to the point of thinking there existed a reason which would lead to her mother's rejection of her. I think seeing her mother coming back from the dead to find her would go a long way to heal her wound of feeling rejected. I don't think it is sweet or cuddly, but is deep and meaningful. She did ask her mom to rise and play with them, and she did. I am not sure I would call this healing, but I would call it having a closure.

44 minutes ago, LongRider said:

LSH may need mercy but I do not see Arya as the one to give it.  Arya wants her mother and if she meets LSH, well, yes she's an abomination now, but she is still the thing that was her mother.  Don't forget, LSH is not just about revenge, but about finding her daughters. 

I do not see LSH and Catelyn as the same person. I think GRRM also said in one of his SSMs that LSH and Catelyn are not the same, so Arya killing LSH is not the same as her killing her own mother. Arya specifically is the person to know that just because someone looks a person then they are that person. So, I think Arya can see behind the face and see that although sharing the same roots, LSH and her mom are not the same. Given that in general, Arya is not a very judgmental person, especially when it come to magical phenomena,  I cannot see her killing LSH as an abomination (I am not even sure Arya is capable of seeing things as abominations). OTOH, I can see her killing her because she believes she is suffering or because she asks it of her.

38 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Stoneheart does not "need" the so-called mercy; like Beric, she is not bound to the self-preservation instinct of the living. That's an awfully arbitrary projection of some readers' feelings upon what's presented in the text. If rest was what she needed, she would never fucking rise in the first place.

How do you know this? I agree that she is not living and thus is not bound to self-preserve but that does not mean she has a choice in continuation of her existence or her existence is free of suffering.

21 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I just mean that the "but she's a zombie abomination!" reaction should not come into play when we are examining her actions and her decision making.

I agree with this completely.

Anyways, while I think Arya could very well be the person to kill LSH, I wouldn't see it as a punishment for either character. I don't find it a very interesting story about her or LSH. I think both of them have a much better tale.

[chrisdaw]

25 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

No, it's not rejection of vengeance, it's a just because (some readers wish it). Stoneheart has a reason to exist and a business to finish, she will go, like Beric did, when her reason to linger is over. Hint: it's justice delivered.

Her last living act, like it or not, is part of the harshest 'traditions' of her context that is taking hostages and killing them if needed, innocents being a standard choice. Nothing to single her out in particular. And yes, she has the capacity, and does indeed differenciate, as evidenced by conducting trials.

People just don't like UnCat and as a result refuse to see the facts about her actions in the same light as living characters.

It's nothing about what readers wish, it's about what everyone who isn't a Catelyn fan sees. What the text has told us independent of any desire is If it's justice she is about then Beric has it wrong, when we are given no reason to doubt him. The BWB are not fussed with the label of murder, they don't know of honour but they know murder. They have a rope, and that's right enough.

Living characters who break guest right are judged harshly. Living characters that spring traps at ransoms would be judged harshly. Taking and executing hostages is done to a purpose, there was no purpose in Aegon's death other than revenge, they were utterly defeated and Aegon was nothing more than an innocent civilian. We've seen nothing to suggest she differentiates between Freys, or between lions.