Tyrion and women

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 4/11/2016 at 3:23 PM, Tianzi said:

So, Tyrion.

The guy that doesn't have non-consensual sex with a minor during their wedding night. Which in Game of Thrones' world makes him an awesome, stand up dude. [After Screen Junkies]

Whores around immensely, but as far as his relations with Shae, Alayaya and Chataya go, it's made clear that he is one of the few who see prostitutes as people. Goes as far as threatening his own nephew over one and being seriously enraged when his lord father doesn't appreciate this idea.

Been through a lot of crap. Even if he sometimes displays unhealthy behavior towards the ladies, it's easier to sympathize with him than with many others. After all, how many of us are noseless dwarfs with a domineering father, on whose sight the members of our desired sex have a gag reflex that has to be healed by money?

But in my eyes there are some elements that bring his view on women into question:

a. Tysha

b. Essos

c. Penny

a. As for the Tysha's rape itself, I see Tyrion as a fellow victim (though obviously not on her level), he was forced to, he didn't want to, his male parts gave away. Obviously it's mainly on Tywin, though I can't imagine how any woman in Tysha's place would want to see Tyrion ever again after what happened. I have another problem: although we are not given detailed description of what happened, Tyrion witnessed the whole thing, a garrison going through a 14-year old girl, he participated himself. Has he not noticed how horrified she obviously had to be, how she suffered, that it was against her will even if she was a 'whore'? He might not when he was thirteen, but he should have realized it later retroactively with gained experience. And yet he is all like 'She was a whore, she didn't love me, poor me'. It took him Jaime admitting that she was not a whore to finally think: 'OMG, rape! Not ok!'. And she loved him! She was not a whore! Suddenly what happened to HER matters!

b. While there's been already established that Tyrion's concern for whores' consent and feeling is bigger than average (read: lesser chance he's been a rapist with them than, say, Robert), his track record crumbles when he arrives to Essos. The manner how he start dehumanizing sex slaves (and slaves in general) is particularly chilling. He despises being made a slave and being seen as a funny dwarf whose gods-given role is to make taller people laugh, but ever thinking 'hey, maybe shagging female slaves who can't refuse isn't ok?' Nope, doesn't happen.

c. After several books of whining that no woman would want him not because of his money, he gets finally one (well, she might not really desire him, but she reaches to him).

Ugh, a she-dwarf. Do not want. Below his standards.

...That said, he still protected her, shielded her from the worst of the world and generally brought more goodness than badness into her life (when he could control it). But while he isn't obliged to be attracted to Penny or anyone, I feel he really shouldn't have a problem with the ladies valuing mainly his many, if he values mainly their hot bodies.

d. ...Shae.

OK, she was what probably anybody would call a traitorous bitch, but I feel that Tyrion, along with romanticizing their relationship, treated her a lot like he owned her. And while his rage over her betraying him and helping to send him to die was correct, there was also unjustified fury over her being, well, a whore in the end of the day. Also, his murder of her was vicious, way more so than his murder of Tywin, which just took quick shooting; he made her suffer, he kept on going even though he could stop, he, in my opinion murdered her in part in a twisted 'honor killing' manner.

 

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I know that Tyrion is a fan-favorite and that dozen of far worse examples in the story can be listed in response to all of his sins, but I also feel that he is sometimes painted as a nearly flawless individual with nothing but empathy for 'misfits' and nothing but kindness for women, these shallow creatures who can't appreciate him. I don't agree with those interpretations and I don't agree with a notion that for all of his lack of luck in love he 'deserves' to finally get a pretty, nice, young thing who would act as a balsam on his wounds. As I said in the beginning, he is probably more decent than indecent and he's had a shitty life in many aspects, but I just don't see as the series' under appreciated 'Mr. Right' in a deformed body.

 

Thank you for making this post. It's really spot-on in my opinion.

In regards to Shae, I'd also like to add a few things.

The only reason Shae was ever on Cercei's radar in the first place, i.e. the only reason she was in any position to even show up in the trial, was because Tyrion insisted on having her as close as possible. Varys warned him that it could be dangerous to Shae and Tyrion to have Shae as Sansa's handmaiden instead of Lolys's. But Tyrion didn't care about that. So really he put her in that position in the first place and then blames her for it.

I don't see Shae as a traitor. I see her as an ambitious professional young woman, well paid for being good at her job. Tyrion decided in his mind that they were lovers and never so much as mentioned his feelings to her. Additionally, Shae had no backup options. When Tyrion was arrested her choices were basically appeal to other Lannisters or become one of the desperate peasants of King's Landing. The risk of being quickly executed probably looked like a picnic next to what she would likely face out in the streets.

Of course she testified against Tyrion. Their verbal contract was terminated as he could no longer pay her or take care of her in any way. She owed him nothing and was desperate to stay afloat herself. TBH I kind of admire her hutzpa for trying to seduce Tywin after Tyrion seemed lost. (I don't think Tywin sent for her or even knew she was there. After Cercei refused to pay up for witness services I think she went to Tywin's bed on her own initiative.)

 

I 100% agree with your analysis of Tyrion's strangling Shae as a sort of "honor killing." Martin himself has said that was probably the darkest thing Tyrion's ever done, and that Tyrion is meant to be a deeply grey character.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 4/12/2016 at 11:33 AM, Lord Lannister said:

A thirteen year old boy standing up to his father even in normal circumstances if often difficult enough. When you're a dwarf with self-esteem issues even more so. When that dad is one who has treated you with loathing and is notorious for things like slaughtering his enemies at Castamere, sacking King's Landing and is currently ordering his guards to rape your wife to prove a point to you, I'd say it's almost impossible.

Still. The fact that he was turned on by the sight of Tysha in that position is disturbing in and of itself.

Tyrion and many fans point to the "my cock betrayed me" line as some kind of absolution...but I fail to see how that makes anything better. It means that he was not, in fact, physically forced; he was ultimately so turned on he couldn't resist joining the gang rape. That is reeeaaallllyyy disturbing to me.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Thank you for making this post. It's really spot-on in my opinion.

In regards to Shae, I'd also like to add a few things.

The only reason Shae was ever on Cercei's radar in the first place, i.e. the only reason she was in any position to even show up in the trial, was because Tyrion insisted on having her as close as possible. Varys warned him that it could be dangerous to Shae and Tyrion to have Shae as Sansa's handmaiden instead of Lolys's. But Tyrion didn't care about that. So really he put her in that position in the first place and then blames her for it.

I don't see Shae as a traitor. I see her as an ambitious professional young woman, well paid for being good at her job. Tyrion decided in his mind that they were lovers and never so much as mentioned his feelings to her. Additionally, Shae had no backup options. When Tyrion was arrested her choices were basically appeal to other Lannisters or become one of the desperate peasants of King's Landing. The risk of being quickly executed probably looked like a picnic next to what she would likely face out in the streets.

Of course she testified against Tyrion. Their verbal contract was terminated as he could no longer pay her or take care of her in any way. She owed him nothing and was desperate to stay afloat herself. TBH I kind of admire her hutzpa for trying to seduce Tywin after Tyrion seemed lost. (I don't think Tywin sent for her or even knew she was there. After Cercei refused to pay up for witness services I think she went to Tywin's bed on her own initiative.)

 

I 100% agree with your analysis of Tyrion's strangling Shae as a sort of "honor killing." Martin himself has said that was probably the darkest thing Tyrion's ever done, and that Tyrion is meant to be a deeply grey character.

Totally agree regarding Shae She did not betray her lover, she simply did her best to survive. She didn't owe Tyrion. In fact he owed her! 

When we look at the payment for services he actually gave her nothing! He Paid her in silks and jewels, which he took back for "safe keeping" when he placed her with Lollys, which was actually Varys's idea. He was smacking her in the face and telling her she would be a kitchen maid. She then spent the rest of her time attempting to get them back. Even when it looked as though Tyrion may die, Varys did not release her pay to her. Shae had no choice but to remain in the keep. to leave was to forfeit her pay, and expose herself to the greater danger of being a lone, young woman travelling through a war zone.

So not only did he not actually pay her, he forced her to work in a position she told him she did not want, and still have sex with him. I don't blame her one jot for testifying. Those who condemn her for that, forget she was not Tyrion's girlfriend. She was doing her job, and he was a shit client. 

[Ser Hyle]

On 4/11/2016 at 3:23 PM, Tianzi said:

So, Tyrion.

The guy that doesn't have non-consensual sex with a minor during their wedding night. Which in Game of Thrones' world makes him an awesome, stand up dude. [After Screen Junkies]

Whores around immensely, but as far as his relations with Shae, Alayaya and Chataya go, it's made clear that he is one of the few who see prostitutes as people. Goes as far as threatening his own nephew over one and being seriously enraged when his lord father doesn't appreciate this idea.

Been through a lot of crap. Even if he sometimes displays unhealthy behavior towards the ladies, it's easier to sympathize with him than with many others. After all, how many of us are noseless dwarfs with a domineering father, on whose sight the members of our desired sex have a gag reflex that has to be healed by money?

But in my eyes there are some elements that bring his view on women into question:

a. Tysha

b. Essos

c. Penny

a. As for the Tysha's rape itself, I see Tyrion as a fellow victim (though obviously not on her level), he was forced to, he didn't want to, his male parts gave away. Obviously it's mainly on Tywin, though I can't imagine how any woman in Tysha's place would want to see Tyrion ever again after what happened. I have another problem: although we are not given detailed description of what happened, Tyrion witnessed the whole thing, a garrison going through a 14-year old girl, he participated himself. Has he not noticed how horrified she obviously had to be, how she suffered, that it was against her will even if she was a 'whore'? He might not when he was thirteen, but he should have realized it later retroactively with gained experience. And yet he is all like 'She was a whore, she didn't love me, poor me'. It took him Jaime admitting that she was not a whore to finally think: 'OMG, rape! Not ok!'. And she loved him! She was not a whore! Suddenly what happened to HER matters!

b. While there's been already established that Tyrion's concern for whores' consent and feeling is bigger than average (read: lesser chance he's been a rapist with them than, say, Robert), his track record crumbles when he arrives to Essos. The manner how he start dehumanizing sex slaves (and slaves in general) is particularly chilling. He despises being made a slave and being seen as a funny dwarf whose gods-given role is to make taller people laugh, but ever thinking 'hey, maybe shagging female slaves who can't refuse isn't ok?' Nope, doesn't happen.

c. After several books of whining that no woman would want him not because of his money, he gets finally one (well, she might not really desire him, but she reaches to him).

Ugh, a she-dwarf. Do not want. Below his standards.

...That said, he still protected her, shielded her from the worst of the world and generally brought more goodness than badness into her life (when he could control it). But while he isn't obliged to be attracted to Penny or anyone, I feel he really shouldn't have a problem with the ladies valuing mainly his many, if he values mainly their hot bodies.

d. ...Shae.

OK, she was what probably anybody would call a traitorous bitch, but I feel that Tyrion, along with romanticizing their relationship, treated her a lot like he owned her. And while his rage over her betraying him and helping to send him to die was correct, there was also unjustified fury over her being, well, a whore in the end of the day. Also, his murder of her was vicious, way more so than his murder of Tywin, which just took quick shooting; he made her suffer, he kept on going even though he could stop, he, in my opinion murdered her in part in a twisted 'honor killing' manner.

 

---

I know that Tyrion is a fan-favorite and that dozen of far worse examples in the story can be listed in response to all of his sins, but I also feel that he is sometimes painted as a nearly flawless individual with nothing but empathy for 'misfits' and nothing but kindness for women, these shallow creatures who can't appreciate him. I don't agree with those interpretations and I don't agree with a notion that for all of his lack of luck in love he 'deserves' to finally get a pretty, nice, young thing who would act as a balsam on his wounds. As I said in the beginning, he is probably more decent than indecent and he's had a shitty life in many aspects, but I just don't see as the series' under appreciated 'Mr. Right' in a deformed body.

 

I think this is a fair and balanced assessment. Bravo.

[Ser Hyle]

41 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Still. The fact that he was turned on by the sight of Tysha in that position is disturbing in and of itself.

Tyrion and many fans point to the "my cock betrayed me" line as some kind of absolution...but I fail to see how that makes anything better. It means that he was not, in fact, physically forced; he was ultimately so turned on he couldn't resist joining the gang rape. That is reeeaaallllyyy disturbing to me.

It would be really disturbing if any man with an erection can't resist raping a woman over it. Fortunately that's just not true. The fact of the matter is that he was ordered to raper her. There would have been grave consequences if he didn't do it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

On 12/4/2016 at 1:03 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't know that I'd call Tyrion a misogynist as such. He doesn't seem to hold negative views on women as a whole section of humanity.

You're right. The world "misogyny" has been so overused that it has lost any meaning. Aeron ais an example of misogyny, for example. He actually believes woman are inferior beings. Randyl Tarly, otoh, doesn't think so, but he does believe they shouldn't step out of their roles. That's sexism rather than misogyny.

Now, Tyrion does have serious superiority complex to compensate his own inferiority complex. He HAS to remember himself constantly he's good and smart for him to believe it for real. And this include treat everybody else with contempt, men or women; specially those who doesn't want to deal with his shit. He kinda behaves in the way he believes he should have behaved had he been born taller, without realising he would have been Cersei 2.0 rather than Jaime.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just now, Ser Hyle said:

It would be really disturbing if any man with an erection can't resist raping a woman over it. Fortunately that's just not true. The fact of the matter is that he was ordered to raper her. There would have been grave consequences if he didn't do it.

Ok, but I'm still disturbed that he had the erection in the first place.

I don't actually fault Tryion for not standing up to Tywin. He was a kid and Tywin was emotionally abusive his whole life. I'm just really questioning what kind of 13yo gets turned on watching his ex get gang raped.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

25 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Totally agree regarding Shae She did not betray her lover, she simply did her best to survive. She didn't owe Tyrion. In fact he owed her! 

When we look at the payment for services he actually gave her nothing! He Paid her in silks and jewels, which he took back for "safe keeping" when he placed her with Lollys, which was actually Varys's idea. He was smacking her in the face and telling her she would be a kitchen maid. She then spent the rest of her time attempting to get them back. Even when it looked as though Tyrion may die, Varys did not release her pay to her. Shae had no choice but to remain in the keep. to leave was to forfeit her pay, and expose herself to the greater danger of being a lone, young woman travelling through a war zone.

So not only did he not actually pay her, he forced her to work in a position she told him she did not want, and still have sex with him. I don't blame her one jot for testifying. Those who condemn her for that, forget she was not Tyrion's girlfriend. She was doing her job, and he was a shit client. 

Yep, all of that, too.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

44 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Still. The fact that he was turned on by the sight of Tysha in that position is disturbing in and of itself.

Tyrion and many fans point to the "my cock betrayed me" line as some kind of absolution...but I fail to see how that makes anything better. It means that he was not, in fact, physically forced; he was ultimately so turned on he couldn't resist joining the gang rape. That is reeeaaallllyyy disturbing to me.

That's a bit unfair. Men and women have been reported to having orgasms during sexual attacks. It's a reaction caused by adrenaline and similar hormones being activated. It has nothing to do with willingness.

[Ser Hyle]

1 minute ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Ok, but I'm still disturbed that he had the erection in the first place.

I don't actually fault Tryion for not standing up to Tywin. He was a kid and Tywin was emotionally abusive his whole life. I'm just really questioning what kind of 13yo gets turned on watching his ex get gang raped.

OK, good that's a relief. I agree, it is disturbing he would be aroused in that situation. Then again, it's not uncommon for consentual partners to engage in rape role play. That's not to say they're only turned on by the fantasy, and wouldn't be by the real thing, but maybe the lines between fantasy and reality are less defined for 13 year old boys.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

28 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Totally agree regarding Shae She did not betray her lover, she simply did her best to survive. She didn't owe Tyrion. In fact he owed her! 

[...]

So not only did he not actually pay her, he forced her to work in a position she told him she did not want, and still have sex with him. I don't blame her one jot for testifying. Those who condemn her for that, forget she was not Tyrion's girlfriend. She was doing her job, and he was a shit client. 

I agree she had no other choice to testify, but what about her spilling out their secrets, like how she called him "Giant"? That helped nothing to the trial except for making fun of him and humiliate him more. Now, as we don't know what's inside Shae's head, it could either be because she just wanted to be mean, or because she was indeed naive. I mean, I get that maybe Cersei made her say "tell people he was a monster who forced you do awful things", but was that necessary? I don't think so. And I don't think Cersei even knew of that to order her to say it aloud. Shae did it on her own, for whatever reason.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

I agree she had no other choice to testify, but what about her spilling out their secrets, like how she called him "Giant"? That helped nothing to the trial except for making fun of him and humiliate him more.

 

Maybe to add credibility to the story just in case he denies it. Sharing private interactions between the two would make it more believable.

Or perhaps she didnt like how he treated her during their time together and resented not being properly paid and wanted to get back at him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Maybe to add credibility to the story just in case he denies it. Sharing private interactions between the two would make it more believable.

Or perhaps she didnt like how he treated her during their time together and resented not being properly paid and wanted to get back at him.

Could be. She definitely didn't realize how badly affected Tyrion was about it when she used it again, though.

I mean, I'm not saying she "had it coming", but her calling her "my giant" was as dumb as Tywin saying "wherever whores go". what they expected?

[Woman of War]

I simply cannot hear anymore that  inconsiderate phrase concerning Shae "She owed him nothing" 

Does this mean being a sex worker would somehow catapult her out of the general requirements of moral behavior as citizen? For a prostitute count precisely the same rules for right and wrong like for any other member of society. Shae is a professional sex worker who has close contact to her client on a personal level, like a physiotherapist, a hair dresser or a personal trainer. And all those professionals  know secrets about their clients, all of them have to lie to their clients from time to time. "You look gorgeous today, my dear" Yes, of course. And the the smalltalk is because you are sooo interesting and not for the tip, oh no!

Neither your hairdresser nor your physiotherapist, nor your whore owes you anything? Yes they do owe you something: they owe you what any citizen owes another citizen: decent behavior,  certainly not to lie at your expense at a trial, for sure not if it is about life and death.

So please do the character of Shae the favor not to dimiss her as some morally minor whore but treat her  as fully responsible member of society Sex workers are not beyond moral requirements of society, they do their job, like your dentist.

Now I have a lot of sympathy for Shae. She may have been abused many times in her childhood, she may never have experienced empathy. And what she has not experienced herself she cannot give. To her Tyrion is  no doubt a sentimental idiot. Actually Shae despises any kind of weakness, be it Tyrion, Lollys (shouldn't complain, she only got raped) or Sansa (drug the little idiot and we have sex beside her). Weakness in others reminds her of the misery she believes to have escaped, she is tough and streetwise and actually quite competent. And yet she grossly overestimates herself when it comes to KL politics and the way power works, there she is indeed naive, showing off her dresses and jewels, aspiring to become a paramour like Ellaria. After Tyrion's fall from grace she should have run, instead she went to Cersei asking for her payment gifts from Tyrion. She was bound to get under the wheels. Back to scum in the eyes of those in power, a nobody again after she believed herself a successful social climber.

Shae had her reasons for acting the way she did. nobody had ever cared for her so she herself had to, at all costs. But she had a choice here and she chose to betray Tyrion, she did not only save herself! she chose to give away very private secrets in the most ugly way, believing herself on winners' side when she was far from that.

Whether posters have a dislike for the character of Tyrion or not, disliking Tyrion is not neceesary for doing justice to the evaluation of Shae. She is entitled to be taken seriously as fictional character and not to be instrumentalized as means to get back at Tyrion the immoral.

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Notre tête est ronde pour permettre à la pensée de changer de direction..........

Francis Picabia, painter

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But Shae didn't owe Tyrion anything.

[Woman of War]

14 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

But Shae didn't owe Tyrion anything.

 

You sound like a four year old little dragon: But I want my cookie!!

Yes, have your cookie and the last word

or didn't I get the joke and you simply corrected my grammar, you evil grammar n*zi?

I'm not a native speaker and one hundred years ago I should have learned proper English grammar at school ;)..... I remember......

 

 

 

 

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Notre tête est ronde pour permettre à la pensée de changer de direction..........

Francis Picabia, painter

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

18 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I simply cannot hear anymore that  inconsiderate phrase concerning Shae "She owed him nothing" 

Does this mean being a sex worker would somehow catapult her out of the general requirements of moral behavior as citizen?

-snip-

Gonna stop you there...

1) Absolutely not, can only speak for myself but that is not my meaning nor intent.

2) I'm not even sure how you got from A to B in this reasoning.

I take Shae very seriously as a character, I actually like her quite a bit and have done a lot of analysis on her. The entire reason she owes him nothing is because she is a real person and not his imaginary sex toy. She is a sex *worker*, entitled to pay and benefits and the reasonable expectation that Tyrion would fulfill his side of their verbal contract.

Effectively she gets none of that, at the end of the day. Not only does she owe Tyrion nothing, he owes her quite a bit. Because she is not his girlfriend, was not doing anything because of their personal relationship but rather their business relationship.

Shae is a professional lady who goes above and beyond for her employer. She did for Cercei as she did for Tyrion, hoping that at least one Lannister would actually pay their debts. But nope. That phrase apparently only applies when Lannisters feel like it.

All the things she and Tyrion said to each other were part of their working relationship. Nothing was "off the record" as it were. The "giant of Lannister" bit was never an intimacy between them, but only became so in Tyrion's mind.

Did she know it would hurt him to hear that? Probably. Did she care? Apparently not. But then, she's his screwed employee, not his girlfriend, or even his friend. They never had a personal relationship, and now it's her skin or his. I don't expect her care. She effectively got subpoenaed and decided Tyrion's privacy was not worth going to jail (or getting executed) for. Practitioners of other professions make that decision all the time.

Did Tyrion know he was putting Shae's life in danger by 1) bringing her to KL and then 2) making her Sansa's handmaid? Absolutely. Did he care? Nope. And he supposedly had feelings for her. He sure has funny ways of showing how he cares.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

6 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I simply cannot hear anymore that  inconsiderate phrase concerning Shae "She owed him nothing"

First, your copy-paste kinda broke the board!

Second, I agree with you 50/50. I think they meant in the sense of she doesn't own him any kind of feelings. If someone hires me, knowing I need it, for example, I owe them gratitude and respect, but not necessarily my friendship, and definitely not my love. And their case, I think Tyrion did expect that a bit.

As I said above, it wasn't right for Shae to humiliate him in front of the court. If we're going to say that what happened to Cersei (WoS) was terrible, and had nothing to do with the crimes she was paying for, then the same if for Tyrion. How relevant it was to reveal the secrets of their sex life? It's like if I start to post pics of my ex after he dumped me. There is nothing "empowering" about it, it's cheap and mean-spirited. It also encourage the old cliché of the "REVENGEFUL WOMAN!!!"

But, as I also said, we don't really know the circumstances of why Shae said those things. She could have had bad intentions or she indeed didn't know their effect.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just now, JonCon's Red Beard said:

-snip-

 It's like if I start to post pics of my ex after he dumped me.

-snip-

 

No.

It's like if you trashed your boss in front of a grand jury after he treated you like his property for several months, never actually paid you in a substantive way, and then got arrested for murder/treason.

 

[Woman of War]

Copy-pasting my own posts comes from being a bit fed up with writing the same stuff over and over again since those Tyrion topics  never advance.

Did Tyrion know he was putting Shae's life in danger by 1) bringing her to KL and then 2) making her Sansa's handmaid? Absolutely. Did he care? Nope. And he supposedly had feelings for her. He sure has funny ways of showing how he cares.

Tyrion knew far better than Shae that she was in danger, actually Shae refused to leave when she should have.Tyrion for sure cared that Shae was in danger.

Of course he was patronizing when he took Shae's fashionable dresses and her jewels without explaining the danger of showing off to her, without opening her eyes to the political mills she was in. We often see him not bothering with explanations for those who may be slower thinkers than he is, men and women. Intellectual, nerdy and nobility arrogance, not misogyny.