Will the North ever accept Targaryen rule again?

[Barty]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The discussion about a Targaryen reconquest of the North is just silly. For one Jon Snow is a Targaryen prince if he is Rhaegar's legitimate son, and due to his Stark mother and the fact that he was raised by Ned Stark he could easily enforce Targaryen rule in the North again.

The idea that Dany or Aegon would ever try to invade the North in the middle is just ridiculous. Nobody would do that. The North has nothing to offer to them, and if any of them can unite the South under his or her rule then they have taken the North, too. After all, winter is going to be very hard this time, even if we ignore the Others, and if I were a Targaryen monarch dealing with rebellious Northerners I'd just decide to cut them off from any Southron food supplies.

If that doesn't force them to submit, then my fresh troops in the next spring will. Case closed.

With the Others attacking the Northmen will of course beg/ask the Southrons for help. Anything else would just be silly. And if they do that, then they can bury their already buried idea of independence even further. 

What supplies?? With Aegon and the Ironborn in or near the reach one can assume even that land is going to get plundered. That makes the Vale the only region in the 7 kingdoms with a food surplus. I dont think they have enough to feed the entire south. Even if they did we know from the spoiler chapters that some of them are already selling their food supplies. 

 

The south will be starving as much as the North, if not more. 

[norwaywolf123]

On 20.4.2016 at 6:55 AM, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

I am going to go with no. I simply don't see Aegon or Daenerys managing to rule the north. They will be busy with their own civil war, and the Others will eventually go south. I don't see either Aegon or Daenerys surviving the series or leaving a lasting dynasty. Westeros will be too chaotic, with too many problems and factions for anyone to rule all of it.

Now, I think that Jon might become king of the north but I wouldn't classify that as Targaryens ruling the north again. Plus, I don't see him procreating and creating a natural heir either. 

At the end of the series there might be no more Targaryens.

hopefully

[Lointain]

The real question is, if by the end of the story, any human being would be living in the North.

Sometimes, i think that the war with the Others would bring enormous losses and destruction and, in the end, we and them will reach some kind of agreement and sign an pact (similar to the one with the COTF), leaving all the cold lands (North) to them, with the humans only living south of the Neck.

[devilish]

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

So are you saying that Dany would delibrately target small folk in order to bring the North to heel? Are you saying that Dany is that big of an asshole? But hey, maybe Dany is a Tywin Lannister in the making. 

To answer you question, yeah, I could see the North waging guerilla warfare if they had too. You do what you gotta do sometimes. If some overbearing dragon ridin meglamaniac comes into your homeland thinking they are going to tell you what's what, that's what you do. Meria Martell, a Targaryen ass kicker from way back, had the right idea.

And given Dany's logistical problems for invading the North, guerilla warfare would work quite well. Her supply convoys would make wonderful targets.

Well Dany's troops might not do all that well in mountain terrain, while it's snowing. Doesn't seem like her Dothraki troops would be worth much there. And why do you mention the Eyrie? It's strategically and tactically irrelevant right now. Nobody is there.  And Dany might be a little hestitant to get involved in a long war in the Vale, with Aegon in her rear.

But, the larger point  that I was making, was that if Dany takes Vale troops into the North, those troops might be of dubious loyalty to her. They may not be extremely thrilled about attacking a former ally.

I think a lot of this is just wishful thinking. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't.  But, it's difficult to say that Dany's victory over the North is a certainity at this point.
 

Yeah, well, I think the Karstark/Stark conflict might be over with Jon helping out Alys Karstark. 

And maybe we'll see pigs fly. I doubt Jon will fuck over Rickon or Sansa. Seems more like Danyfan wishful thinking. It's possible I suppose. But, lots of things are possible. Probable? Likely not.

Well maybe. But then, again, maybe not. Your hoping that Jon and the Starks turn on eachother. Probably not going to happen.  And I think we've have been given plenty of indications  here that the North is pretty damn loyal to the Starks. I really doubt they'll turn their backs on the Starks for Dany's benefit. Maybe they will. But, then, again, lot's of things are possible, to include Dany losing badly, if she decides to invade the North.
 

A- I don't think that Dany will target the small folk. What I do think is that the Northern lords would rather die then leave their lands like some cowards to engage in Guerilla warfare. We are talking about people who are proud of their history and their ancestry (some of whom were once petty kings). The Lord Paramount himself would look in the eyes of a criminal and wield the sword themselves rather then delegate the job to others and we're talking about criminals here and not smallfolk. The Smallfolk will expect their bannermen to defend them, the bannermen would rather burn into a crisp rather then flee and the Starks would rather bend the knee then see people being torn in pieces by dragons. Attacking supply lines seem to be quite a cool idea. However there's that slight problem known as dragons. Dragons can fly high and detect any enemies trying to ambush the supply line. They can also fly to Winterfell and the Dreadfort and burn them into a crisp. If Jacaerys Valeryon can fly Vermax to Winterfell than so can Danny with Drogon.

B- The Vale will always obey the Lord Paramount. They were angry that Lysa didn't pick sides but they still obeyed her. May I also remind you that the Vale and the North has a history of fighting against one another. Also the bromance between Vale and the North is overrated. May I remind you that Robar Royce declared to Renly despite Robb Stark was also fighting. Ideally the Vale would try to avoid the war same as the Targs. However if the Starks refuse to negotiate despite the North had been invaded by nearly anything with feet (alive and in the near future dead too) then I doubt the knights of the Vale will turn against their Lord Paramount because Rickon is sweet.

C- Pigs did fly in history. George RR Martin inspires himself alot from the War of the Roses and there's exactly a story within this line. Edward IV died suddenly leaving his son as his heir and his loyal brother Richard as Lord Protector. An experienced general Richard III saw the Woodville as having a dangerous influence over the future king and engaged himself into a crusade against them which ended with the the two crown princes being sheltered in the tower of London for their protection. Unfortunately for Richard, the children never bought Richard's concern and with coronation day at the doors, Richard III panicked and the children 'vanished' for the good of the realm. Does that ring a bell?

My point is pretty simple. Danny hate Lannisters and the Others (she will hate them once she meets them) same as the Starks. With enemies coming from all sides, they are better of sticking to one another especially since dragon fire and dragon glass (dragonstone is rich of it) are few of the things that can kill the others

 

 

 

 

[OldGimletEye]

Okay, make up you mind here. Either Dany would delibirately attack the small folk or she wouldn't.
So it's kind of nonsense to write:
 

34 minutes ago, devilish said:

A- I don't think that Dany will target the small folk.

But, then write:

35 minutes ago, devilish said:

 The Smallfolk will expect their bannermen to defend them, the bannermen would rather burn into a crisp rather then flee and the Starks would rather bend the knee then see people being torn in pieces by dragons.

Well, why do the small folk need defending in particular if Dany is wouldn't target them? And why would small folk be torn to pieces by dragons if Dany wouldn't deliberately target the small folk?

 

36 minutes ago, devilish said:

A- I don't think that Dany will target the small folk. What I do think is that the Northern lords would rather die then leave their lands like some cowards to engage in Guerilla warfare. We are talking about people who are proud of their history and their ancestry (some of whom were once petty kings). The Lord Paramount himself would look in the eyes of a criminal and wield the sword themselves rather then delegate the job to others and we're talking about criminals here and not smallfolk. 

 

Your idea that the Northern lords wouldn't engage in guerilla warfare is based on pure speculation. It's simply not very convincing.  And actually, it seems Manderly is willing to engage in a few subterfuges when dealing with the Boltons. So I am not too sure about your conclusion here.
 

38 minutes ago, devilish said:

. Attacking supply lines seem to be quite a cool idea. However there's that slight problem known as dragons. Dragons can fly high and detect any enemies trying to ambush the supply line. T

Three dragons can't cover supply lines that potentially go back hundreds of miles. And if the Northerners were smart, they would destroy all the docking facilities at White Harbor and spike a ship in the harbor. If all the rivers in the North were frozen over, then Dany would be forced, most likely, to bring up the bulk of her army supplies through the Neck. And there supply convoys would be vulnerable to attacks by the Crannogmen. And the the further Dany's forces march into the North, the longer it's vulnerable supply lines become. It's a long way from the Neck to the Wall.

39 minutes ago, devilish said:

hey can also fly to Winterfell and the Dreadfort and burn them into a crisp. If Jacaerys Valeryon can fly Vermax to Winterfell than so can Danny with Drogon.

Sure they can burn lots of places to a crisp. Whether they can actually hold territory is another question. And three dragons trying to control the entire North without troops is going to be difficult. There is a reason why Aegon and his sisters didn't usually invade places without troops. and send in dragons into battle unsupported.

And finally, the North may have effective dragon killers. Their has been hints that Weirwood Arrows might be effective. And who knows what Bran might be capable of.

42 minutes ago, devilish said:

 

B- The Vale will always obey the Lord Paramount. They were angry that Lysa didn't pick sides but they still obeyed her. May I also remind you that the Vale and the North has a history of fighting against one another. Also the bromance between Vale and the North is overrated. May I remind you that Robar Royce declared to Renly despite Robb Stark was also fighting. Ideally the Vale would try to avoid the war same as the Targs. However if the Starks refuse to negotiate despite the North had been invaded by nearly anything with feet (alive and in the near future dead too) then I doubt the knights of the Vale will turn against their Lord Paramount because Rickon is sweet.

Depends on who is the Lord Paramount and who is acting in his name. Bronze Yohn  might not be too happy having to serve a Targaryen, since he fought with Jon Arryn and with the North.

44 minutes ago, devilish said:

C- Pigs did fly in history. George RR Martin inspires himself alot from the War of the Roses and there's exactly a story within this line. Edward IV died suddenly leaving his son as his heir and his loyal brother Richard as Lord Protector. An experienced general Richard III saw the Woodville as having a dangerous influence over the future king and engaged himself into a crusade against them which ended with the the two crown princes being sheltered in the tower of London for their protection. Unfortunately for Richard, the children never bought Richard's concern and with coronation day at the doors, Richard III panicked and the children 'vanished' for the good of the realm. Does that ring a bell?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.

44 minutes ago, devilish said:

My point is pretty simple. Danny hate Lannisters and the Others (she will hate them once she meets them) same as the Starks. With enemies coming from all sides, they are better of sticking to one another especially since dragon fire and dragon glass (dragonstone is rich of it) are few of the things that can kill the others

Actually, we don't know if Dragon fire can kill the Others, but yeah most likely the wights. And how effective the dragons might be against the Others, and their undead armies, is another unknown. My hunch is that they will be effective, but not as poweful as many people assume. The Others, despite their lack of dragons, have some real tactical advantages. Their excellent camouflage and night fighting abilities make them hard to see. And if you can't see them, you can't destroy them easily. And if the Others can raise undead armies anywhere in Westeros, then that probably degrades the effectiveness of dragons for reason that have already been given.
 

And yes, Dany and the North potentially have some common interest. It's possible that they will strike up an alliance. It's possible that the North will swear fealty to her. But, it does not follow necessarily that the North will have no choice but just to smooch Dany's ass.

I'll just conclude with what I wrote earlier:

Quote

Hey man, I understand the bomber crews are being briefed, the bombers are being fueled up, and the bomb holding areas of the bombers are being loaded with pamphlets declaring "Dany's final victory is inevitable", but you know that may just not be the case.

Dany's final victory may happen, or it may not. If doesn't, I think GRRM has left himself enough room to make it plausible why it doesn't happen. Trying to ascertain whether it will happen or not depends on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions that really don't have a lot of information about at this juncture.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

The North had their own kings for some 8000 years. They bent the knee to the Targaryens, because they had dragons, not because they liked Aegon. The North remained in the 7K after the fall of the Targaryens, but it certainly helped that Ned was Robert's best friend. Everything will depend of what will happen during the Long Night, and what Jon will decide. But I would be surprised if the 7K will still be there, or if the Targaryen dynasty is restored. After all, Targaryen rule was just a short interlude in the North history.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

22 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The North had their own kings for some 8000 years. They bent the knee to the Targaryens, because they had dragons, not because they liked Aegon.

I imagine most of the North bent the knee to the Starks because they had larger and/or superior armies, not because the liked King Stark.

[BalerionTheCat]

15 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I imagine most of the North bent the knee to the Starks because they had larger and/or superior armies, not because the liked King Stark.

Possibly. Maybe it was the Stark's way or the Bolton's way. The Manderlys were rather glad to accept the Stark proposal anyway. But it was very very long ago. The Targaryens, we know how it happened.

[239JMFL34109]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The North had their own kings for some 8000 years. They bent the knee to the Targaryens, because they had dragons, not because they liked Aegon. The North remained in the 7K after the fall of the Targaryens, but it certainly helped that Ned was Robert's best friend. Everything will depend of what will happen during the Long Night, and what Jon will decide. But I would be surprised if the 7K will still be there, or if the Targaryen dynasty is restored. After all, Targaryen rule was just a short interlude in the North history.

I would also say that they bent the knee because Aegon was willing to leave them alone. They probably want to know if they could keep their religion, lords could keep their lands, and etc..

I wonder if it had not been aegon there but one of his wives if the negotiations would have gone so smooth? If aegon had gone to dorne instead of his wife maybe dorne would have joined the 7 kingdoms and the north would have never been conquered?

I also wonder if the historic conflict between the rhoynar and the valyrians added to dorne's reason to fight.  

[devilish]

8 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, make up you mind here. Either Dany would delibirately attack the small folk or she wouldn't.
So it's kind of nonsense to write:
 

But, then write:

Well, why do the small folk need defending in particular if Dany is wouldn't target them? And why would small folk be torn to pieces by dragons if Dany wouldn't deliberately target the small folk?

 

Your idea that the Northern lords wouldn't engage in guerilla warfare is based on pure speculation. It's simply not very convincing.  And actually, it seems Manderly is willing to engage in a few subterfuges when dealing with the Boltons. So I am not too sure about your conclusion here.
 

Three dragons can't cover supply lines that potentially go back hundreds of miles. And if the Northerners were smart, they would destroy all the docking facilities at White Harbor and spike a ship in the harbor. If all the rivers in the North were frozen over, then Dany would be forced, most likely, to bring up the bulk of her army supplies through the Neck. And there supply convoys would be vulnerable to attacks by the Crannogmen. And the the further Dany's forces march into the North, the longer it's vulnerable supply lines become. It's a long way from the Neck to the Wall.

Sure they can burn lots of places to a crisp. Whether they can actually hold territory is another question. And three dragons trying to control the entire North without troops is going to be difficult. There is a reason why Aegon and his sisters didn't usually invade places without troops. and send in dragons into battle unsupported.

And finally, the North may have effective dragon killers. Their has been hints that Weirwood Arrows might be effective. And who knows what Bran might be capable of.

Depends on who is the Lord Paramount and who is acting in his name. Bronze Yohn  might not be too happy having to serve a Targaryen, since he fought with Jon Arryn and with the North.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.

Actually, we don't know if Dragon fire can kill the Others, but yeah most likely the wights. And how effective the dragons might be against the Others, and their undead armies, is another unknown. My hunch is that they will be effective, but not as poweful as many people assume. The Others, despite their lack of dragons, have some real tactical advantages. Their excellent camouflage and night fighting abilities make them hard to see. And if you can't see them, you can't destroy them easily. And if the Others can raise undead armies anywhere in Westeros, then that probably degrades the effectiveness of dragons for reason that have already been given.
 

And yes, Dany and the North potentially have some common interest. It's possible that they will strike up an alliance. It's possible that the North will swear fealty to her. But, it does not follow necessarily that the North will have no choice but just to smooch Dany's ass.

I'll just conclude with what I wrote earlier:

 

Danny would probably not hurt the smallfolk but the smallfolk and their bannermen wouldn't know that for certain. If Danny arrives into a bannermen's territory then the Smallfolk will expect their bannermen to defend them, something which probably the bannermen will do even if that mean death or defying the Starks by bending the knee. I cant see the typical Northern nobleman fleeing from their lands and ancestral home like cowards and abandoning his people to engage in 'guerrilla warfare'. A substantial number of families had been around long before the Starks became kings of the North. They bend the knee to the Starks because they were more powerful then they were and they will bend the knee for Danny for the same reason. The Manderlys are different, they are not really Northerners. Actually I can see Wyman Manderly being the first to bend the knee to Danny (if he can) if that means fast tracking Rickon's accession to Lord Paramount of the North. He offered similar deals to Stannis Baratheon and the latter didn't even had dragons

Dragons fly high and can cover a lot of land in a short period of time. Still there won't be any need for that. Dragons will burn 4-5 castles to a crisp and the North will come to terms. If the terms consist of Rickon becoming Lord Paramount of the North, he would regain Winterfell, the Boltons would be punished and the girl will lead them to their revenge against the Lannisters then there would be plenty of happy faces there.The North have suffered so much in recent years that they simply cant take more punches.

The North have been toying with killing dragons for centuries.  Brandon Snow thought he can sneak in Aegon's camp in the night and kill the dragons while they are at their sleep. He was stopped from doing that. In reality is that while not being totally invincible the dragons are quite tough nuts to beat and till now there's no effective way to deal against them. The North is simply to weak at this point to fight a Danny Targ invasion and I guess (or hope) that by this time, it became shrewd enough not to turn potential allies who can sort the North problems once and for all into enemies.

Fire and dragonglass kill the others. Danny has both

 

 

 

 

 

[YOVMO]

On April 16, 2016 at 1:58 AM, StoneyTargaryen said:

Because the North remembers

Lol

The north remembers about as well as a rat....on meth....with alzheimer's.....