Ramsay's Gift

[JonisHenryTudor]

On 5/2/2016 at 0:03 AM, Punting on the Honeywine said:

Just saw the preview for this episode... please please please don't be Rickon.  

Why does everyone keep suggesting this? 

[JonisHenryTudor]

14 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

 

 

13 hours ago, Big Daddy said:

As for why Theon doesn't make sense...he just left Winterfell after being captive there for 3 seasons. His story isn't just to go back there. If it was to be some redemptive suicide strike, I could only see it if we were closer to episode 9 than we are. Too many episodes between now and that for this to be Theon that's the "gift". His story was always going to be going back to the Iron Islands, just like it is in the book. That's why they set up the whole Kingsmoot idea.

Not necessarily. Theon helped Sansa escape, not for any other reason. His return could be simply to buy them time while she escapes to Jon. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

4 hours ago, Ashlesha said:

Well, all the ammunition meant for the Pink Letter is not there anymore in the show. Ramsay needs to provoke Jon Snow on giving up his Lord Commander's post and march on to Winterfell. He finding Rickkon seems the best way to draft the pink letter in the show. That is what will lead Snow to Winterfell.

 

 

Does he? Sansa could easily do that by relating her story to him. 

[Yarp]

4 hours ago, DJE said:

I think it has to be Rickon too. I don't know what pretext they will come up with for handing him over, but it doesn't make sense for it to be anyone else. As others have posted above, there needs to be a reason to bring Jon south. I think Davos will still do his recruiting bit, but for Jon instead of Stannis. I hope we get some of the Northern Conspiracy, but I'm not holding my breath.  

Wasn't there some Kind of power struggle between two Umbers? Its been awhile since I've read the book. Anywho, Smalljon could be handing over Rickon to have an ally to solidify his claim at home.

Or, if it's fake Rickon, it could be a political plot to get Jon and his wildling army to kill Ramsay.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Heartofwinter]

6 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, Smalljon Umber will not care about Night's Watch neutrality or anything like that. He knows one truth: massive numbers of his historic enemies just migrated to the lands close to his, and Jon is responsible for that. His main motivation is probably to kill all the wildlings who are allied with Jon, and allying himself with Ramsay and Harald might do that. The only way to drag them to the south for slaughter is to provoke Jon to march on Winterfell. Pink Letter and Rickon are perfect for that.

And yes, I agree that Mel, Davos and Tormund are relatively safe in the Battle of the Bastards.

On another thought, I think Smalljon Umber will be killed by Wun Wun... Umber men probably will try to trap or chain the giant like on their sigil, but Wun Wun will break free and wreak some shit up. Oh boy, I wish it will go this way.

Harald Karstark will probably get killed by Jon himself to mirror Robb executing Rickard Karstark. The way I see Jon killing Ramsay though will probably involve warging Ghost (if it will be revealed later that Jon was actually inside the wolf all this time and he discovered his warging ability) given Ramsay's affiliation with dogs and how they attack his victims. We know that Littlefinger in that Winterfell scene, so I am not sure if dies this season, but I hope he gets thrown to the chopping block as well.

But this is D&D, so they will probably do it some other way.

I completely disagree with the warging, to me the show has kept the Stark children and their warging outside of Bran completely dormant, and I don't see any reason to bring it in now. Unfortunately maybe my favorite warging was how Arya got her eyes back, but I am 100% convinced that is not going to happen in the show. Either way Ghost could eat Ramsay without Jon being the host, just because he can. 

I keep looking for hints and clues and previous trailers, but everything suggests the Umbers are going to be with the Boltons and I don't think it will be feigned, which makes zero sense to any book reader I'm sure. By process of elimination, and the fact that Rickon and Osha are supposed to be at the Last Hearth, the gift is going to be Rickon, with a chance of a fake Rickon at like .1%

[Mikeygigs]

2 hours ago, Yarp said:

Wasn't there some Kind of power struggle between two Umbers? Its been awhile since I've read the book. Anywho, Smalljon could be handing over Rickon to have an ally to solidify his claim at home.

Or, if it's fake Rickon, it could be a political plot to get Jon and his wildling army to kill Ramsay.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, there was no power struggle between the Umbers. Two of them just fought on different sides (one for the Boltons, one for Stannis), but both refused to fight the other.

I really hope its not Rickon, mainly because of what that bodes for the books. Without Rickon, the Stark line is pretty much ended and they're a family I always thought would survive.

[Ludo Kressh]

19 hours ago, White lilly said:

I'm just hoping that the Umbers are taking the Manderlys place and setting Ramsay up.

Yeah. At this point, it seems the only way to defeat Ramsey...he's come out on top on everything so far; a betrayal by his own men would certainly put him in a precarious position and nicely illustrate that he can't think past his latest sadistic act since he thinks fear keeps everyone in line. I would love to see this play out. It makes sense for the Umbers to do this since they really have no reason to betray the Starks.

But this is the show and a lot of times it doesn't make sense.

[Nerevanin]

Considering that the show omitted the fArya and fAegon parts, I suppose that it could be a fRickon because there wasn't any doppelganger in the show so far. I don't know what would Ramsay do with a doppelganger of Rickon though (but killing him, obviously). I really it is not the real Rickon and Osha though.

[cometa]

21 hours ago, Punting on the Honeywine said:

Fake Rickon would be great.  In the trailer I didn't recognise the banners of the guys riding up to Winterfell.  

Edit:  I think the guy Ramsay is talking to looks like Small Jon:

http://watchersonthewall.com/smalljon-umber-cast/

 

It's the House Umber's flag.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150215174222/gameofthrones/images/0/08/Umber_sig.png

The gift it's 100% Rickon.

 

[Xarkar]

The only thing about it being Rickon that doesnt make sense to me is the smile on Ramsay's face.  He has never met Rickon, so an Umber shows up unannounced, and says he has a gift.  Why is he smiling?

 

Also, I just noticed this, but the preview shows the Umber saying he has a gift, with Ramsay sitting at the table each facing each other.

Then, in the scene with Ramsay smiling the Umber is standing behind Ramsay.  IE if  they are indeed the same scene, Ramsay got up, walked past the Umber to the "gift".  If the gift was Rickon, why woudl they need to get up and go see him?  Ramsay could have just sat where he was. 

 

[chasing the dragons]

Maybe it is Sansa, then Jon can be the oathbreaker by marching on Winterfell. 

[~DarkHorse~]

It has to be Rickon. I can't see it being anyone else. Unfortunately, based on filming news and spoilers, we know the Umbers are aligning with the Boltons during the Battle of the Bastards. 

Rickon being the gift, also lines up with the reddit extra's spoilers for 6x09. 

 

 

Rickon is unleashed onto the battlefield ("Do you like games little man") where he is told to run towards Jon and dodge the arrows that Ramsay is shooting at him. At some point, Small Jon climbs over the pile of dead bodies and has a duel with Tormund, which he loses. 

 

I'm guessing they are pissed off with Jon for letting the Wildlings south of the Wall and perhaps, they see Robb as a failure. He led them south and they made him King, but he married Talisa and got his army killed. 

[DireGhost]

Just now, ~DarkHorse~ said:

 

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Rickon is unleashed onto the battlefield ("Do you like games little man") where he is told to run towards Jon and dodge the arrows that Ramsay is shooting towards him. At some point, Small Jon climbs over the pile of dead bodies and has a duel with Tormund, which he loses. 

 

Spoiler

In the extra's spoiler, does Rickon make it?

 

[~DarkHorse~]

5 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

  Hide contents

In the extra's spoiler, does Rickon make it?

 

It is not stated, but my guess is no. I am still holding onto hope, though. 

[Lord Martin]

I'm 50/50 on whether its Rickon or FRickon.  Admittedly, its a cheap and easy way to get rid of Rickon, justify the Pink Letter, bring Jon South and make Ramsay's army look formidable with the Umbers and Karstarks on his side. 

But I think the show is giving us their version of the grand northern conspiracy.  I think Frickon is a trojan horse of sorts to get spies into the Bolton camp in order to return the Starks to power in the North.  This would echo the book without being identical.

The seeds for a northern conspiracy have been planted for a long time.  After the Red Wedding, when Roose sneaks into the Dreadfort and meets "Reek," he and Ramsay discuss how important it is to kill the Stark boys because every house in the north hates the Boltons for the Red Wedding and will rally against them.  Thus there is a suggestion the Boltons could be undone by the other northern houses.

Of course we seldom see the northern lords.  House Mormont and Reed are prominent but we don't see their lords.  In the first season we have the Greatjon primarily.  However, Robb mentions Galbart Glover as leading the vanguard.  In seasons 2 and 3 we have the Boltons and Karstarks primarily... though others are seen or mentioned such as Manderly at the Red Wedding.  There are also a few random lords that Bran gives aid to early in Season 2 and Torren Square is saved by Ser Rodrick and Theon mentions it is the seat of House Tallhart when he plots with Dagmar.  Later we see that Ramsay flayed Lord Cerwyn and in episode 2 we just learned that the Glovers re-took Deepwood from the Ironborn.  But do we ever see the northern lords communicating with one another?

We seldom see the non-major characters meeting or planning together, but plainly they do.  We don't see the Sons of the Harpy plot against Dany, it is merely hinted at.  We didn't see Tywin's letters with Walder Frey, but the RW was hinted at.  We didn't see Dolorous Ed recruit the Wildlings, but it was hinted at.  Why would the northern houses be any different?  So are there any hints that the northern houses are rallying against the Boltons in the name of the Starks?

Here is one:  The whole world believes that all the Stark males are dead with a handful of exceptions (Bolton, Theon and Sansa).  Of course Rickon knows he's alive.  And last we heard Rickon and Osha were headed to the Umbers.  We hear nothing about him after.  Or do we...?

Recall that Lyanna Mormont of Bear Island writes to Stannis, "The north knows no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark."  In theory, she should be loyal to Sansa Stark - the last known surviving Stark.  So why mention a King named Stark?  One answer is that the Mormonts know that Rickon is with the Umbers because they sent word to the Mormonts in order to plot to put Rickon back in power as King in the North.

So is this a hint at a northern conspiracy?  Note that just an episode or two later, when Sansa comes to Wintefell, she meets an elderly woman who tells her "the North Remembers."  Again, is this a hint at a larger conspiracy against the Boltons?  It really could be.  Beyond that Roose contastly reminds Ramsay that they are outnumbered and need the northern houses, like lord Cerwyn who didn't pay his taxes.

One major theme that is developing this season is the power struggles in each region of the Seven Kingdoms and even beyond.  Dorne and the Iron islands are prime examples as the heads of those great houses were killed. King's Landing has its own version of this theme as the Lannisters wrangle with the Faith.   Meeren too.  And the North fits this mold perfectly as Ramsay kills Roose and we are re-introduced to the Karstarks.  So I think we are going to get lots of political maneuvering in the north if not a full scale civil war.

The show is already setting up the power structure of the north by noting that if the Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys ally with the Boltons, they will have enough power to control the north.  Immediately after telling us the Boltons need 3 houses to hold the north, one of them is already there and loyal to Ramsay, the Karstarks.  So that's 1/3rd of the task done.  

The trailer then suggests that the Umbers then come on board and are handing going to deliver Rickon as Ramsay's "gift."  We even have Ramsay's haunting "do you like games little man?" in one of the trailers.  But all of this is too obvious, IMO.  It would really be weak for Ramsay to kill his father and magically have 2/3rds of the houses he needs fall into his lap.  

Keep in mind that this episode is called "Oathbreaker."  One suggested interpretation is that the Umbers are breaking their oaths to the Starks by giving Rickon to Ramsay.  But recall that Robb once called the Greatjon an oathbreaker for bearing steel against his liege lord and the Greatjon was outraged.  He also immediately came to his senses and became Robb's ally.  Would it be logical for his sons to betray the Starks so easily?  So I wonder if Oathbreaker has a double meaning here.  Is it actually meant to recall the Umber oath to the Starks and that the Umbers would rather die than be called oathbreakers?  

The Karstark allegiance with House Bolton is a logical one.  Robb killed Lord Karstark and his son(s) were killed during the war.  The Karstarks are logical Bolton allies.  But the Umbers?  Really?  The Greatjon was a staunch ally of Rob in Season 1 and acclaimed him King in the North.  And Bran trusts the Umbers enough to send Rickon to them.  This seems to be a total 180 from what we know of the Umbers, especially if they've already let the other Nothern houses know they have Rickon.

My suspicion is that Rickon is a fake though the show may tease us for an episode or two.  But the show won't just give away that there is a conspiracy.  We will learn of it peace meal through Davos and Sansa. 

We know from the trailers that Davos goes to House Mormont as we see him in a hall with a chandelier and the Mormont Sigil:  

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/14/theorycrafting-is-sansa-teaming-up-with-davos-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/

Note that in the 3rd and 4th photos both Sansa and Davos appear to be in the same hall but at different times.  

I have heard rumors we get a version of Wylla Manderly's Stark Speech from ADWD.  So I am thinking that Lyanna Mormont, who wrote to Stannis will deliver the speech to Davos and reveal that Rickon Stark is alive and with the Umbers.

As I said above, this could then echo the books.  Instead of FArya (Jeyne) its Frickon.  Perhaps they'll even use a mute iron born boy as a nod to Wex.  In the book the Umbers are playing both sides it seems, though its possible the Bolton half is planted in Winterfell in order to stab the Boltons in the back.  The book notes that the Umbers who are with the Boltons are old men as opposed to the young boys.  Its reminiscent of the "hunting parties" old northern men make which are really just suicide missions.  The Umbers also are taking a bit of the Manderly role here and we know they are a dagger in Bolton's side within Winterfell.  

Here is my rough prediction based on the trailers we've seen etc.  The tough nut  for me is that Sansa, Pod and Brienne are later seen in the Riverlands  why would Sansa go south unless the Boltons were already out of Winterfell?  So could the battle at Winterfell be much sooner than we all think?

Episode 3:  Oathbreaker:  

Smalljon comes to Winterfell with a gift of "Rickon Stark."  He might even have a direwolf pelt to prove it.  We won't see Rickon's face.

Jon Snow's Resurrection is made known to the Wildlings, Davos and the rest of Castle Black.

Sansa travels and discusses where to go, if she appears at all.  She may learn Jon is dead so she does not go to Castle Black.  

 

Episode 4:

Ramsay sends the "Pink Letter" to Jon.  It demands the return of Sansa and he will claim to have Rickon.  The line "Winterfell is mine, come and see" is in a teaser this season.  The letter makes perfect sense here.  Umber and Karstark praise the letter.

Jon will get the letter and rally the wildlings to march south.  He will send Davos to let the Northern Houses to rally them to his cause and to let them know Ned Starks last son is alive and attempting to retake Winterfell. Hence building to the "Battle of the Bastards"

Sansa makes her pitch to northern houses, probably the Manderlys.  They tell her they'll join against the Boltons if she gets more help.  She writes to Little Finger for aid.

Rickon at Wintefell is revealed to us showing he is fake or real Rickon is revealed to be at the Last Hearth.

 

Episode 5:

Davos meets Lyanna Mormont and learns that Jon Snow is not the last surviving son of Ned when he learns about Rickon.  The Mormonts join Jon Snow and the Wildlings.

Jon begins his march south with the wildlings.

Ramsay writes to the Freys asking for men and claiming Walda and her son was killed by northerners plotting against the Boltons and as revenge on the Freys for the Red Wedding.  

 

Episode 6:

Sansa arrives at House Mormont, they've already gone to battle for Jon.  She learns where Rickon is and that Jon is actually alive.  She leaves after getting word from the Manderlys or Little Finger.

No Jon

Ramsay learns Jon is coming and plans his defenses, scares Frickon w/ his games quotes. 

Might even kill Frickon.

 

Episode 7:

Battle of the Bastards/Six Armies

Army 1:  Boltons/Umbers to defend Winterfell

Army 2:  Jon and the Wildlings

Army 3: Davos and loyal northern houses

Army 4:  Sansa and loyal northern houses

Army 5:  Littlefinger and the Vale Knights

Army 6:  The Freys - who have come north with unknown intent.  Depends if they know Ramsay killed Walda and her son.

 

Episode 8:  Aftermath of the battle:

Sansa, Rickon and Jon reunite at Winterfell.  Each has their own future ahead of them

Sansa begins to turn the tables on Little Finger and asks him to stay and help Rickon rule Winterfell and teach Rickon.

Jon makes plans to head north to take on the Others.

Baelish and Sansa decide she needs to go south to re-take the Riverlands and reunify Robb's kingdom.

 

Episode 9:

Sansa, Brienne and Pod meet the Brotherhood

 

Episode 10:

They arrive at the Siege of Riverrun and sneak Sansa in to meet with the Blackfish.  

 

Its probably all too tangled to unravel just yet... but I think we have the makings for a fast moving and ever chaotic political scene in the north.

Thoughts on Rickon as a ruse against the Boltons?

[The Answer]

I think we all need to accept that Rickon & Osha are done for.  

Spoiler

We know that two known characters will be on the Flayed Man crosses during the battle.

 

Stannis is dead and most likely buried by Brienne.

Theon will reach Pyke and/or Yara at some point this season.

Brienne has Sansa, they're safe.

Pod's fine and irrelevant to Ramsay.  

Roose could have been an option here until Ramsey decided to claim he was poisoned.  Why burn your dead father if the rest believe there was no ill will.

Who's left?  It's Rickon.

My only grudge here is that it is an an Umber delivering him, when in my opinion the Umbers should have no grudge with the Starks.  Plus this is just horribly unfortunate all together.  

I do take solace in the fact that the likelihood of Ramsay capturing/flaying/burning Rickon in the novels is < 0.01% 

[DireGhost]

21 minutes ago, Lord Martin said:

Here is my rough prediction based on the trailers we've seen etc.  The tough nut  for me is that Sansa, Pod and Brienne are later seen in the Riverlands  why would Sansa go south unless the Boltons were already out of Winterfell?  So could the battle at Winterfell be much sooner than we all think?

Have we seen pictures of Sansa in the Riverlands that I have somehow missed? I know Brienne and Pod end up there, are we just assuming that Sansa is there because they are? My own prediction is once Sansa is safe with Jon or Davos or someone, she will send Brienne to the Riverlands to search for Arya. It would be foolish to send Brienne away, but Brienne isn't one to disobey orders.

[DireGhost]

Triple post...

[DireGhost]

Double post..

[Buffy]

What if it's Jon? We already know Ramsey is sending people to get Jon.