(Spoilers) So - which events from the show will happen in the books and in what way?

[Chaircat Meow]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

My question is, in your scenario.. what does Jon do once he's resurrected. Almost certainly he's going to lead a Wildling army south, probably to attack Ramsey. If Stannis takes out Ramsey then what does Jon do? Jon leads an army south to fight who? Stannis? Theres a big hole in that train of thought.

I don't assume he'll lead a wildling army south. Why do you? The only evidence he'll lead a wildling army south is the show, and his show story is obviously a mix of different book plotlines.

I don't know what he'll do, although I think we could see him in Ghost and separated from his body for a lot longer.

[Ser Quork]

I always thought that Jon would be the last hero - that he would head north.

[Chaircat Meow]

3 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

1) I'm not convinced this is right insofar as the Others came after the Pact (iirc) so - if the CotF made the Others (and there are numerous theories that they did) - it was to counter the Andal invasion, I think.  Also, thinking of the things that GRRM has told us (think of them looking like Sidhe & obsidian shatters the spells that make up an Other), what we saw on the show does seem quite right.  Perhaps the CotF created them, but not from men - a more ethereal creation, perhaps?  Obviously, I can't flesh this out as we have no book yet, but these are my feelings about what was shown in the show.

2) I agree with what you've said here.  I'm very much of the view that Bran will stay in the cave (although I'd very much like him not to) to replace Bloodraven as the last Greenseer, and I think it's tragic.  I had always thought Summer would live (given they have the most special connection - according to GRRM) to give movement for Bran, but again I may be wrong.

As for Jon & Sansa, there's no way we can tell their book arcs from the show - butterflies have definitely become dragons there.

I agree that there will be a lot more to the origin of the Others in the books. I just think the show wouldn't get the backstory totally wrong on this point. GrrM's comments about the Sidhe, and the inhuman beauty of the Others don't fit that well with the idea they were originally First Men. It is possible the Others are men fused, or combined, with more ethereal forces though, so they've become inhuman and beautiful, in a way they weren't when alive.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

28 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I don't assume he'll lead a wildling army south. Why do you? The only evidence he'll lead a wildling army south is the show, and his show story is obviously a mix of different book plotlines.

I don't know what he'll do, although I think we could see him in Ghost and separated from his body for a lot longer.

I think its incredibly likely. And not just from the show, his whole story has been about gathering the Wildlings around him, and plus the last thing he did before being stabbed was reading the Pink Letter. That will almost certainly be his primary motivation once he comes back to life, so he will want to go south and hunt Ramsey. I can't see that not being in the books. To do it, he has to have an army, and its very likely the Wildings will be a big part of it.

I also think there is a time limit to how long he can be dead. If his body starts rotting or stays dead too long then he can't come back the same, plus the NW would just burn it or he'll come back as a WW. So it has to happen pretty quickly.

[JonSnowed]

11 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Ok, this episode (5) had ALOT in it - I liked it! (Despite all big, big spoilers)

 

Sansa: It feels like they take the arc from the books sort-off (I think the knights of the Vale certainly will be used). In addition, this feels like a compensation from last season. Sansa is progressing too much too fast and shows initiative I would expect from her no later than the end of WoW. This conflict with Littlefinger feels forced, since I expect Sansa to be, at least a little, Littlefingers pawn. Also - how did the army end up in Moles town of all places (only place in the show people know?). A walk through the neck or a landing slightly above it feels more likely.

 

Blackfish: He has retaken Riverrun. Well, that Riverrun will be taken by BWB is no big shocker but is the Blackfish really there (with BWB). It's pretty likely that he is I would say, but I was hoping for something more...exciting. Feels like a book spoiler ~90% (Except for the "lacking BWB" part).

 

Lady Crane and Arya: So, we see the theatric show live from the Mercy chapter(very funny, =D) and Lady Crane. There is no Lady crane in the books BUT there is a lady Stork (A very similar animal if not the same). This felt real so I'm calling it! Arya is there to kill Lady Stork and she has already done so.

 

From Mercy chapter "Mercy found it for him, helped Big Brusco don his boar suit, checked the trick daggers just to make certain no one had replaced one with a real blade (someone had done that at the Dome once, and a mummer had died), and poured Lady Stork the little nip of wine she liked to have before each play"

 

She has already poured the poison in the wine and fulfilled her job. The killing of Ralf was a personal bonus (She was able to combine work and pleasure - good girl, =D)

 

Then we find out that the children created the white walkers: Yup, 100% book spoiler. It feels genuine and gives a neat explanation. Now - how did they lose control?

 

Greyjoys: As expected (I have long speculated that the "overrule kingsmoat" is a illusion and that it will only work as Ashas personal motivation and won't happen in the book). I am skeptical Euron could win the crown with his "Yup, I sooo kinslayed my brother the king" speech but I chalk that up to a more old-wayish ironborn (and respect strength more than expected) than in the books. Ok - fine.

 

Jorah: Ok, unnecessary but I just wanted to point out again that Jorah is unbearable. Again, less rolemodel - more asshole would be nice! Do they like that guy or what? His fucking nice-guy attitude and Daenerys confirming his awesomeness is choking me!

 

Bran: Fantastic part! A lot of spoilers! Looks like I might be wrong about Bran staying in the cave (I thought he would be stuck there, but it feels unrealistic now - does it). On the other hand I look to be right about a mostly devastated north. Anyway - my two questions: Summer and Hodor.

Will summer die? I was shocked myself and while I can see him die, I did expect him to live.

 

Hodor? Hold the door sounds like an exceptional explanation (and logical - and after you have heard it, you can´t see a different theory). What I am more interested about is Bran and the time paradox (ok, might not be a paradox, but I HATE time travel). I HOPE this don´t appear in the books the same way since it allows time travel and again, I hate that! However it felt realistic. So, did Bran create Hodor in the past/future? I really, really hope this has another explanation (since it again feels very genuine, in a book-sort of way).

 

Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

Can you confirm these two with a link? I don´t doubt any of it, but I would like to hear it for myself and I might have limited time to do some searching myself for the next couple of days.

 

 

 

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/thrones-director-daniel-sackheim-hosts-reddit-ama/  Here is the link where Sackheim states Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter and debunks fans theories it was written by someone else.

 Here is the inside the episode link where D&D confirm GRRM told them about Hodor, there is a seperate interview with GRRM where he hints at this too from back in 2014.

[Chaircat Meow]

11 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think its incredibly likely. And not just from the show, his whole story has been about gathering the Wildlings around him, and plus the last thing he did before being stabbed was reading the Pink Letter. That will almost certainly be his primary motivation once he comes back to life, so he will want to go south and hunt Ramsey. I can't see that not being in the books. To do it, he has to have an army, and its very likely the Wildings will be a big part of it.

I also think there is a time limit to how long he can be dead. If his body starts rotting or stays dead too long then he can't come back the same, plus the NW would just burn it or he'll come back as a WW. So it has to happen pretty quickly.

You may have it the wrong way round. It was the presence of the wildlings that allowed Jon to act in the way he did, and get stabbed by his brothers in return. The story is, in my view, about his decision to place family before vows, and his death and flight into Ghost. I don't think we have to assume the wildling story line was about giving him an army. GrrM has conjured up armies before (like the clans). It is about character and choices.

I also don't think you should assume Jon's motivation will remain the same once he comes back from the other side/Ghost. In addition the letter in the books is false, but in the show it is true.

As to the body, two words, ice cells.

[JonSnowed]

11 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Id bet my life that Stannis takes down the Boltons and beheads Theon

especially since there's no chance that Theon is heading to Essos with Asha in the books 

I just don't see it I'm afraid, although I agree Theon is not heading to Essos in the books.

However Daniel Sackheim has debunked fans theories that the Pink Letter was not written by Ramsay, so ether he's making it up or Stannis loses.

[Chaircat Meow]

2 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

I just don't see it I'm afraid, although I agree Theon is not heading to Essos in the books.

However Daniel Sackheim has debunked fans theories that the Pink Letter was not written by Ramsay, so ether he's making it up or Stannis loses.

Or he is deceived.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

You may have it the wrong way round. It was the presence of the wildlings that allowed Jon to act in the way he did, and get stabbed by his brothers in return. The story is, in my view, about his decision to place family before vows, and his death and flight into Ghost. I don't think we have to assume the wildling story line was about giving him an army. GrrM has conjured up armies before (like the clans). It is about character and choices.

I also don't think you should assume Jon's motivation will remain the same once he comes back from the other side/Ghost. In addition the letter in the books is false, but in the show it is true.

As to the body, two words, ice cells.

Well I'm pretty sure its been confirmed now that the letter is true in the books too. See above. 

Ice cells aren't enough to keep a body from turning into a WW or to stop some NW guy wanting to go burn it. I really don't see how he could stay in Ghost for very long at all. 

So I'm still certain he will need to go south. The confirmation of the validity of the Pink Letter means Jon will want to go and get Ramsey, even if the letter wasn't true, Jon wouldn't know that, and he still risked everything to go after Ramsey just before he died, why would that change once he comes back.

And then if he doesn't go South.. what does he even do? Just wait around at the Wall? Thats not really a possibility either.
Do we all honestly believe the Northern lords are going to be happy to have Stannis in charge? There is a lot of Stannis bias in much of the thinking around here. I don't think he's going to be doing very much further on, he might win an initial battle, but I cannot see him taking Winterfell.

[Chaircat Meow]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Well I'm pretty sure its been confirmed now that the letter is true in the books too. See above. 

Ice cells aren't enough to keep a body from turning into a WW or to stop some NW guy wanting to go burn it. I really don't see how he could stay in Ghost for very long at all. 

So I'm still certain he will need to go south. The confirmation of the validity of the Pink Letter means Jon will want to go and get Ramsey, even if the letter wasn't true, Jon wouldn't know that, and he still risked everything to go after Ramsey just before he died, why would that change once he comes back.

And then if he doesn't go South.. what does he even do? Do we all honestly believe the Northern lords are going to be happy to have Stannis in charge? There is a lot of Stannis bias in much of the thinking around here. I don't think he's going to be doing very much further on, he might win an initial battle, but I cannot see him taking Winterfell.

What has been confirmed is that Ramsay wrote the letter, not that the contents of it are true. Two different arguments. I have always been a strong believer in Ramsay's authorship.

The ice cells have been pretty well set up to preserve Jon's body. He actually has two bodies in the cells in DwD and they didn't turn into wights. In any case though, I think his consciousness will be in Ghost (see Varamyr prologue).

I don't know. Maybe he's changed after death, maybe his wilding army falls apart, maybe he learns Ramsay never had his sister and the battle has been won in any case.

No, many of the lords of north are not going to be happy with Stannis. This is why I think we are seeing the introduction of the Iron Bank and the mercenaries. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

What has been confirmed is that Ramsay wrote the letter, not that the contents of it are true. Two different arguments. I have always been a strong believer in Ramsay's authorship.

The ice cells have been pretty well set up to preserve Jon's body. He actually has two bodies in the cells in DwD and they didn't turn into wights. In any case though, I think his consciousness will be in Ghost (see Varamyr prologue).

I don't know. Maybe he's changed after death, maybe his wilding army falls apart, maybe he learns Ramsay never had his sister and the battle has been won in any case.

No, many of the lords of north are not going to be happy with Stannis. This is why I think we are seeing the introduction of the Iron Bank and the mercenaries. 

Fair enough about the Ice cells. But that still leaves Jon without any purpose once he comes back (which really even from a narrative point of view you'd hope wouldn't take an entire book.. but knowing GRRMs style of dragging everything out, might happen I guess). What would be more anticlimatic that Jon coming back, realising Ramsey is dead and his sister isn't in trouble.. and then just decides everything is ok, so sits around on his ass for a bit. No I think he will be changed once he comes back and will leave the NW almost definitely (his watch has ended) and will need to have some reason for his story going forward. 

[Chaircat Meow]

6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Fair enough about the Ice cells. But that still leaves Jon without any purpose once he comes back (which really even from a narrative point of view you'd hope wouldn't take an entire book.. but knowing GRRMs style of dragging everything out, might happen I guess). What would be more anticlimatic that Jon coming back, realising Ramsey is dead and his sister isn't in trouble.. and then just decides everything is ok, so sits around on his ass for a bit. No I think he will be changed once he comes back and will leave the NW almost definitely (his watch has ended) and will need to have some reason for his story going forward. 

I agree he won't sit on his ass or lack purpose I'm just saying I don't know what his story will be (and I see no reason to believe it will involve leading his wildlings south). I'm not convinced we are getting his book 6 story, even in a mangled form, from the show.

[SeanF]

I think the next big event for Jon would be the Others breaching the Wall.

[sj4iy]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the next big event for Jon would be the Others breaching the Wall.

Count me in on this one, as well.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the next big event for Jon would be the Others breaching the Wall.

He wouldn't survive that, or if he did he basically has to run the hell away from that situation, and be left with.. pretty much nothing. Then what does he do? 

Also he basically forgets about Ramsey? Stays in the Nights Watch? That doesn't make any sense at all. The whole point of him dying is basically GRRM looking for a way of getting Jon out of his NW vows. At that point he is free to pursue his own personal agenda, I highly doubt he will stick around after he comes back.

[SeanF]

In the Books, Castle Black is about 700 miles from Winterfell (my impression is that the distance is much shorter in the Show).  Granted, the Wildlings have a better tolerance of cold than most, but getting an army down there would take at least a month, probably longer when you take the logistics into account. I think the conflict between Stannis and the Boltons will have been decided before that happens.

[JonSnowed]

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In the Books, Castle Black is about 700 miles from Winterfell (my impression is that the distance is much shorter in the Show).  Granted, the Wildlings have a better tolerance of cold than most, but getting an army down there would take at least a month, probably longer when you take the logistics into account. I think the conflict between Stannis and the Boltons will have been decided before that happens.

Yes I agree and the outcome looks as though Stannis looses.  It's clear that Jon is leaving the NightsWatch in the show and in the books, hence his death.

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, JonSnowed said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/thrones-director-daniel-sackheim-hosts-reddit-ama/  Here is the link where Sackheim states Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter and debunks fans theories it was written by someone else.

 Here is the inside the episode link where D&D confirm GRRM told them about Hodor, there is a seperate interview with GRRM where he hints at this too from back in 2014.

Thanks!

[Stannis is the man....nis]

2 hours ago, JonSnowed said:

Yes I agree and the outcome looks as though Stannis looses.  It's clear that Jon is leaving the NightsWatch in the show and in the books, hence his death.

They said he has to burn Shireen which can't happen if he loses. Plus, Ramsay being the author means nothing considering Wyman tricking him has been the most popular PL theory

[kg1982]

D&D have an interview saying that the books and the shows diverge.  They were given three big moments by Martin from the upcoming books.. the first was Shireen's burning, the second was Hodor from last week, and the third was from the end.  I suspect the outlines are the same but the books will diverge in certain ways.