[Spoilers] What if most Northern Lords are now opportunists?

[The Baelish Mockingbird]

With the Umbers gifting Rickon an Osha to the Boltons, many people have started speculating that the Great Northern Conspiracy is coming true in the show.

While it makes a lot of sense, and as many people will point out, the Northerners are among the most honourable people in Westeros and would never bow down to a savage like Ramsay.

That's fine but this is Game of Thrones. One of the key points of the show is that power can influence anyone, even the most honourable of people. 

I'm sure there will  be some Northern Lords who have decided to restore the Stark Family due to their own honour but surely a lot of other Northern families are merely just a remnant of what their houses once were. This wouldn't be surprising after the way many Northern Lords were butchered at the Red Wedding.

Sure the North is the most honourable region but that doesn't automatically mean it's bad writing just for a couple of houses to pledge allegiance to what they believe is the winning cause. If anything it's more realistic.

Robb married a woman out of love when he was honour-bound to marry another. Arya is a vengeful monster who is quite literally no-body now. Sansa lied about Petyr Baelish's crimes against the Vale. Rickard Karstark killed two Lannister innocent Lannister Children.

Meanwhile we discover that Jaime Lannister, the heartless King Slayer, has a much more emotional past than people gave hi credit for. Tyrion Lannister, the Demon Monkey and the Imp, was one of the better Hand of the King in years and completely misunderstood.

I feel people take it at face value when they talk about how the North basically are not allowed to betray the Starks simply because they're meant to be honourable. As we know, nothing is ever that simple in the Game of Thrones.

[Madhur Singh]

I actually believe this is a ruse by the North for a few reasons. First you have to remember that Sansa lit the candle in the tower and was told that she still has friends in the North. I feel as if that is a signal for the Great Northern Conspiracy to begin.  

Secondly, Ramsay can't kill Rickon Stark because then by default Sansa Stark's claim will be superior to him. Sure the larger houses MAY stay on his side but any political capital he held will be gone.

Thirdly, I have to say that Smalljon's excuse to betray the Starks wasn't that great. Having Rickon in his custody is the best bargaining chip that House Umber has. Not to mention it seems fairly clear in the scene that Smalljon knows that Jon Snow is an able commander. If Smalljon truly were an opportunistic backstabber then I would think he would use Rickon for his benefit which means keeping him alive. Hell he could use Rickon to rally the North behind him and serve as his most trusted adviser. 

Also, not really convinced that Shaggy Dog is dead. Could have been a large wolf. Ramsay wouldn't know because he has never seen one.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

On 5/12/2016 at 8:20 PM, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

I feel people take it at face value when they talk about how the North basically are not allowed to betray the Starks simply because they're meant to be honourable. As we know, nothing is ever that simple in the Game of Thrones.

I would like to point outpart of the reason people say "the North are not allowed to betray the Starks" is

Spoiler

They don't in the books. The Umbers, Glovers, Mormonts, the surviving houses form the WF sack and many Mountain clans sided with Stannis, then we have the Manderlys of course.

So this "Northern opportunist" reeks of D&D having everything go Ramsay's way then good/logical story telling

[Rubicante]

I still don't understand why Stannis in the show went to attack Winterfell.  First he says to Jon he can't take Winterfell without the Wildlings, then immediately proceeds to burn Mance Rayder and lose all of their support.  Then he leaves for Winterfell without the Wildlings.  Isn't that a contradiction? 

Even though The Winds of Winter is not out yet, I have this feeling that D & D are just giving Stannis' story line in the books to Jon (and Sansa) in the show.

[A Ghost of Someone]

On the show, as in most cases, the Northern Lords are going to do what D&D&C want them to do. The Starks were beloved in the North, especially by the Umbers, the Karstarks had a problem when Robb executed their lord, to a point, understandable but before that, unfailingly loyal. Now, accompany that with the fact that the Boltons are evil, despicable and cannot be trusted, their throwing in with Kinslayer Ramsay is a puzzling approach for even D&D&C. We have not even met the Manderly's yet and I cannot imagine what grief they have with the Starks?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

26 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

On the show, as in most cases, the Northern Lords are going to do what D&D&C want them to do. The Starks were beloved in the North, especially by the Umbers, the Karstarks had a problem when Robb executed their lord, to a point, understandable but before that, unfailingly loyal. Now, accompany that with the fact that the Boltons are evil, despicable and cannot be trusted, their throwing in with Kinslayer Ramsay is a puzzling approach for even D&D&C. We have not even met the Manderly's yet and I cannot imagine what grief they have with the Starks?

It's all so Littlefinger can swoop in and save the day.  *speculation- With the help of Sansa Stoneheart*

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

It's all so Littlefinger can swoop in and save the day.  *speculation- With the help of Sansa Stoneheart*

I cannot comment on what I have heard about the "climax" of this storyline but I fear it will leave an certain "unsatisfaction".

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

3 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I cannot comment on what I have heard about the "climax" of this storyline but I fear it will leave an certain "unsatisfaction".

I couldn't agree with you more. Honestly I boil over at the thought of it. 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

41 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

On the show, as in most cases, the Northern Lords are going to do what D&D&C want them to do. The Starks were beloved in the North, especially by the Umbers, the Karstarks had a problem when Robb executed their lord, to a point, understandable but before that, unfailingly loyal. Now, accompany that with the fact that the Boltons are evil, despicable and cannot be trusted, their throwing in with Kinslayer Ramsay is a puzzling approach for even D&D&C. We have not even met the Manderly's yet and I cannot imagine what grief they have with the Starks?

Forget the "kinslayer" hypocrisy part, the Karstarks joining Roose because they are pissed at the Starks is understandable but from a pure selfish level why did Karstark not kill Ramsay the minute he killed Roose? With Rickon now found I get him staying now but before Karstark had a stronger clam to WF then Ramsay so why did he play second fiddle?

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Forget the "kinslayer" hypocrisy part, the Karstarks joining Roose because they are pissed at the Starks is understandable but from a pure selfish level why did Karstark not kill Ramsay the minute he killed Roose? With Rickon now found I get him staying now but before Karstark had a stronger clam to WF then Ramsay so why did he play second fiddle?

Well, they are in a Castle controlled by Boltons. What hits me about this is that The Karstarks and Umbers barely get along and I keep thinking, the 3 of them might betray each other but then again, certain "indications" say.........

[Rubicante]

I don't think the Umbers are going to betray the Boltons in the show.  Giving Rickon to Ramsay would be too much of a risk, and killing Shaggydog should be unforgivable from Rickon's perspective.  And I don't buy "it's just some other big wolf". 

I think Jon and the Wildlings will be saved in the fight versus the Boltons and other northern houses by Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale.  This will also occur in the most cliched fashion ever (ie. defeat is imminent, Knights of the Vale arrive just in the last possible moment).

[A Ghost of Someone]

9 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I don't think the Umbers are going to betray the Boltons in the show.  Giving Rickon to Ramsay would be too much of a risk, and killing Shaggydog should be unforgivable from Rickon's perspective.  And I don't buy "it's just some other big wolf". 

I think Jon and the Wildlings will be saved in the fight versus the Boltons and other northern houses by Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale.  This will also occur in the most cliched fashion ever (ie. defeat is imminent, Knights of the Vale arrive just in the last possible moment).

Then again, Do the Boltons think that LF is going to betray them after handing over Sansa?

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Also when Stannis left CB why did he not march on LH to intimidate/court the Umbers to his side?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

In books, despite there being tons of horrible things happening, there is still many people who are motivated by noble reasons. That's why although it is dark, it is not bleak.  You don't come away from the books feeling completely hopeless.

 

The show is completely different, seems the only motivations people have are power, greed, lust, ambition, and vengeance. That's it. It's a very nihilistic and misanthropic world and far more grim and depressing than the books.

 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

16 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Also when Stannis left CB why did he not march on LH to intimidate/court the Umbers to his side?

Because they needed Stannis out of the way so Jon can liberate the North. Nevermind it'd be way cooler if they'd had Stannis court the Umbers and then put off the battle (That we didn't even see) until next season where Jon can still be at the head of it with Stannis. Then Littlefinger swoops in with Bronze Yohn and they mirror the Rebellion as they march to take the Riverlands. 

[Rubicante]

24 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Also when Stannis left CB why did he not march on LH to intimidate/court the Umbers to his side?

I have two explanations for this.

1. Aside from the Boltons, and maybe a single reference to the Mormonts, Northern houses didn't exist in season 5.  The North consisted of the Wall, the Dreadfort, Winterfell, and some small town outside of Winterfell for Brienne to sit in.

2. This action from Stannis would have actually made him seem like a competent military general in the show, instead of a horny, emo teenager who likes to play grab ass with a 120 year old witch.

I cannot even begin to express my complete disgust with how Stannis was adapted in the show.  The fact that Stannis listened to Jon in the books about gaining the trust of the Northern houses by fighting off the Ironborn was a huge missed opportunity.  But then again, so was everything else about his character.

[A Ghost of Someone]

27 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Also when Stannis left CB why did he not march on LH to intimidate/court the Umbers to his side?

He had to march right by it for crying out loud. The way they are moving though Season 6 makes Season 5 look half-hazzard. I wish they planned this more.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

4 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

He had to march right by it for crying out loud. The way they are moving though Season 6 makes Season 5 look half-hazzard. I wish they planned this more.

No he really did because Preston Jacobs saw that in the scenes with Stannis in the tent his army was on the EASTERN side of Long Lake

[A Ghost of Someone]

42 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

No he really did because Preston Jacobs saw that in the scenes with Stannis in the tent his army was on the EASTERN side of Long Lake

Litterally right there then. I better move to the rant thread, otherwise I will go off topic here.

[TheCasualObserver]

On 5/12/2016 at 1:20 AM, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

With the Umbers gifting Rickon an Osha to the Boltons, many people have started speculating that the Great Northern Conspiracy is coming true in the show.

While it makes a lot of sense, and as many people will point out, the Northerners are among the most honourable people in Westeros and would never bow down to a savage like Ramsay.

That's fine but this is Game of Thrones. One of the key points of the show is that power can influence anyone, even the most honourable of people. 

I'm sure there will  be some Northern Lords who have decided to restore the Stark Family due to their own honour but surely a lot of other Northern families are merely just a remnant of what their houses once were. This wouldn't be surprising after the way many Northern Lords were butchered at the Red Wedding.

Sure the North is the most honourable region but that doesn't automatically mean it's bad writing just for a couple of houses to pledge allegiance to what they believe is the winning cause. If anything it's more realistic.

Robb married a woman out of love when he was honour-bound to marry another. Arya is a vengeful monster who is quite literally no-body now. Sansa lied about Petyr Baelish's crimes against the Vale. Rickard Karstark killed two Lannister innocent Lannister Children.

Meanwhile we discover that Jaime Lannister, the heartless King Slayer, has a much more emotional past than people gave hi credit for. Tyrion Lannister, the Demon Monkey and the Imp, was one of the better Hand of the King in years and completely misunderstood.

I feel people take it at face value when they talk about how the North basically are not allowed to betray the Starks simply because they're meant to be honourable. As we know, nothing is ever that simple in the Game of Thrones.

Power can influence honorable people, it's just that Umber is not getting any power by giving Rickon away. He's apparently getting Ramsay to help him against the wildlings, even though Ramsay was going to fight them anyway. Since Ramsay was looking for Umber support anyway, Umber would have been better off just falsely pledging himself to Ramsay and double crossing him later.