Why has the show made Brienne so arrogant?

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Noveson said:

A crap show that you watch religiously I'm sure

And PLEASE point out to me where in the books its determined the Hound is the 2nd best fighter??  Beause you just made that up.  As far as I recall Loras, the Mountain, Oberyn, etc were all made out to be better fighters than him.

I watch it purely for potential clues relating to the books. But the cringeworthy nature of most of the plot developments and character interactions makes it a difficult ordeal indeed.

 

[Sand Snakes]

3 hours ago, Salad Days Saan said:

Because they don't seem to know how to characterize "Strong Female" without relying on "raging bitch."

Unfortunate, but D&D are hardly the only writers/producers/directors/etc. with this problem.

Brienne's good heart is out there in the ether, hanging out with Asha's snark (and her real name), ne'er to be seen showside.

 

 

 

Oh, THANK YOU FOR THIS. GRRM does NOT have this problem, his female characters are amazing, but it is indeed a problem in the show. Women can be strong and insecure at the same time, fierce and humble. Its a duality. Im so tired of bitchy strong females. Women can be complex as every human being... show writers seem to think if you're a woman you're either an unhappy housewife or margaret thatcher. 

[Noveson]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

I watch it purely for potential clues relating to the books. But the cringeworthy nature of most of the plot developments and character interactions makes it a difficult ordeal indeed.

 

Are you going to ignore the rest?  Because you just spouted a bunch of bull.  You care about it that much and you still somehow think the Hound is the second best fighter with absolutely no evidence to support that?

For a guy that absolutely hates the show you sure are on here a ton writing about it, and I'm pretty sure that anything you don't like on the show you contribute to the writing of D&D, because obviously you know how the books are going to go right??

[Noveson]

5 minutes ago, Sand Snakes said:

Oh, THANK YOU FOR THIS. GRRM does NOT have this problem, his female characters are amazing, but it is indeed a problem in the show. Women can be strong and insecure at the same time, fierce and humble. Its a duality. Im so tired of bitchy strong females. Women can be complex as every human being... show writers seem to think if you're a woman you're either an unhappy housewife or margaret thatcher. 

Lol so which one of those do you think Arya, Sansa, Olenna, Margery, etc are?  

For instance Sansa has absolutely zero power, is put in the worse situations, and comes out of it strong, and its looking like likely to lead.  

Or Arya?  She's managed to escape from every bad situation she's put in with almost no help, and is definitely not bitchy.  

Those are two of the main characters.  Did you forget about them? Or are you ignoring them because they don't fit your pigeonhole-ing?

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Noveson said:

Are you going to ignore the rest?  Because you just spouted a bunch of bull.  You care about it that much and you still somehow think the Hound is the second best fighter with absolutely no evidence to support that?

For a guy that absolutely hates the show you sure are on here a ton writing about it, and I'm pretty sure that anything you don't like on the show you contribute to the writing of D&D, because obviously you know how the books are going to go right??

Are you asking me to engage in a "Who is the greatest fighter?" debate? Because those have been done to death.

The Hound, Gregor, Garlan Tyrell and Jaime Lannister generally come out top in those. Ignoring Barristan the Old, who though still very good, is no longer the knight that was the equal of Arthur Dayne in his younger days.

Oberyn has never been mentioned in that category, by the way, and his duel with Gregor was based on a unique strategy not feasible on the battlefield.

As for Garlan Tyrell, well, until Loras mentioned that he was the better swordsman of the two brothers no one in the Seven Kingdoms ever mentioned him in the ranks of the elite tier warriors. So he is yet unproven at that level.

The names that consistently pop up are Jaime Lannister, Gregor Clegane and the Hound. And the Hound showed that he was more than a match for the enraged Gregor when he went toe to toe with his brother to save Loras at the King's Landing tourney.

In short, the Hound and Jaime are likely the top two warriors in Westeros before Jaime loses his hand.

As for Brienne, she is incredibly inexperienced, physically weaker than Biter, and in terms of swordskills while very formiddable, nothing indicates that she is of elite level in the books.

Hope this has satisfied your "Who is the best fighter" debate needs.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Saltire Knight said:

~snipped some good stuff for length~

Also, what happened to the strong men in the show? 

Strong, Good, Man.

In Game of Thrones you can only ever be two of those three things.

Didn't you hear? It's Women on Top^tm this season...

“The women are rocking this season — and I’m not just saying that because they’re on your cover,” says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/24/game-thrones-ew-cover

I'm a chic and I find it amazingly offensive that this is their version of strong women. We are either week rabbits to be tortured, or we are conniving bthces. And let me be very clear about something, I do not get offended about anything ever... except animal torture. But this is just a pathetic overcompensation to the last few made-up seasons. It's like they made an SNL parody of the show themselves.

[Sand Snakes]

1 minute ago, Noveson said:

Lol so which one of those do you think Arya, Sansa, Olenna, Margery, etc are?  

For instance Sansa has absolutely zero power, is put in the worse situations, and comes out of it strong, and its looking like likely to lead.  

Or Arya?  She's managed to escape from every bad situation she's put in with almost no help, and is definitely not bitchy.  

Those are two of the main characters.  Did you forget about them? Or are you ignoring them because they don't fit your pigeonhole-ing?

I wasnt clear enough. I meant show writers in general seem to think that, not D&D. Of course arya and sansa do not go that way and thats awesome. 

But it is a problem with some people in the show. Mel and brienne, ellaria/arianne fusion (arianne is not bitchy) and margaery are way more bitchy in the show than in the books because somehow they think that makes a strong woman characterization better. I don't see a problem in a strong woman being bitchy, but Im tired of that cliche coming all the time IN GENERAL, so when I see it in a show that otherwise has done a great job with the girls it makes me sad. 

And Jesus, cut the agressiveness, please, its just a conversation.

[Noveson]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Are you asking me to engage in a "Who is the greatest fighter?" debate? Because those have been done to death.

The Hound, Gregor, Garlan Tyrell and Jaime Lannister generally come out top in those. Ignoring Barristan the Old, who though still very good, is no longer the knight that was the equal of Arthur Dayne in his younger days.

Oberyn has never been mentioned in that category, by the way, and his duel with Gregor was based on a unique strategy not feasible on the battlefield.

As for Garlan Tyrell, well, until Loras mentioned that he was the better swordsman of the two brothers no one in the Seven Kingdoms ever mentioned him in the ranks of the elite tier warriors. So he is yet unproven at that level.

The names that consistently pop up are Jaime Lannister, Gregor Clegane and the Hound. And the Hound showed that he was more than a match for the enraged Gregor when he went toe to toe with his brother to save Loras at the King's Landing tourney.

In short, the Hound and Jaime are likely the top two warriors in Westeros before Jaime loses his hand.

As for Brienne, she is incredibly inexperienced, physically weaker than Biter, and in terms of swordskills while very formiddable, nothing indicates that she is of elite level in the books.

Hope this has satisfied your "Who is the best fighter" debate needs.

Yeah all I'm reading is a bunch of conclusions you have reached over  no evidence to support the claim of some part in the show you want to hate(but still watch every week and post 1,000 times about). 

Just because you've decided upon some conclusion in the thousands of posts youve made on whatever internet forum, doesn't mean its supported in the text, or that it is how the characters are actually written.  Like deciding the Hound is obviously a better fighter than the Mountain because of about two swings of the sword where the Hound had the jump on him.  Give me a break. You're deciding what R.R. Martin intended based purely upon what you want to be true.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just now, Noveson said:

Yeah all I'm reading is a bunch of conclusions you have reached over  no evidence to support the claim of some part in the show you want to hate(but still watch every week and post 1,000 times about). 

Just because you've decided upon some conclusion in the thousands of posts youve made on whatever internet forum, doesn't mean its supported in the text, or that it is how the characters are actually written.  Like deciding the Hound is obviously a better fighter than the Mountain because of about two swings of the sword where the Hound had the jump on him.  Give me a break. You're deciding what R.R. Martin intended based purely upon what you want to be true.

Lol, which rock have you popped out from?

Secondly, are you perchance related to D&D? You seem awfully defensive when they get criticized for their obvious lack of talent.

Thirdly, have you been board stalking me or something? I'm really not a frequent poster on the Show thread. I'm flattered that you seem to recognize me from somewhere, but seriously, 95% of my Ice and Fire related posts take place in the Book forum, not the Show forum.

Apparently the few posts I have made in the Show forum have struck a cord.

[Boarsbane]

I loved it, although I'll admit I dislike Stannis in both the books and the show so her rubbing it in to Mel's face was satisfying, for me at least.

 

[Noveson]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lol, which rock have you popped out from?

Secondly, are you perchance related to D&D? You seem awfully defensive when they get criticized for their obvious lack of talent.

Thirdly, have you been board stalking me or something? I'm really not a frequent poster on the Show thread. I'm flattered that you seem to recognize me from somewhere, but seriously, 95% of my Ice and Fire related posts take place in the Book forum, not the Show forum.

Apparently the few posts I have made in the Show forum have struck a cord.

Lmao it's taken me 3 posts to know what you are, and I assumed the other 4,000 posts were the same.  There's normal people out there that dislike TV shows so they don't watch them, and then there's people like you that watch it every week anyway and then just feel so strongly that everyone needs to hear how much you hate it that you post about it a few hundred times.  I mean there's legitimate criticisms to be had, but there's a big difference between that and making up stuff to hate while bashing everything about the show and calling the producers talent-less... 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Noveson said:

Lmao it's taken me 3 posts to know what you are, and I assumed the other 4,000 posts were the same.  There's normal people out there that dislike TV shows so they don't watch them, and then there's people like you that watch it every week anyway and then just feel so strongly that everyone needs to hear how much you hate it that you post about it a few hundred times.  I mean there's legitimate criticisms to be had, but there's a big difference between that and making up stuff to hate while bashing everything about the show and calling the producers talent-less... 

Here's a tip, before I move on. Ignore my posts. You will be happier for it. And probably healthier too.

[Sand Snakes]

I don't know why, but book brienne reminds me of sir Duncan the Tall. I guess it has to do with the whole chilvary thing, besides the tall stuff.

[Noveson]

17 minutes ago, Sand Snakes said:

I wasnt clear enough. I meant show writers in general seem to think that, not D&D. Of course arya and sansa do not go that way and thats awesome. 

But it is a problem with some people in the show. Mel and brienne, ellaria/arianne fusion (arianne is not bitchy) and margaery are way more bitchy in the show than in the books because somehow they think that makes a strong woman characterization better. I don't see a problem in a strong woman being bitchy, but Im tired of that cliche coming all the time IN GENERAL, so when I see it in a show that otherwise has done a great job with the girls it makes me sad. 

And Jesus, cut the agressiveness, please, its just a conversation.

Yeah, forget it, we just fundamentally disagree here.  You speak of duality and then complain about some of the women being bitchy(and I still have no idea why people think Brienne is bitchy for going after the woman that killed the man she loved) and then ignore the examples that don't support that.  Can there not be strong bitchy women? I mean Melisandre, Cersei, and Dany are strong bitchy woman in both the books and the show.  Arya, Sansa, Brienne are all very nice women with insecurities that are also very strong in both the books in the show.  Do you think none of them should be bitches?  

 

[Noveson]

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Here's a tip, before I move on. Ignore my posts. You will be happier for it. And probably healthier too.

Advice taken.  A little bit from me.  Don't watch the show and don't post about it a million times.  You will be happier for it.  And probably healthier too. 

 

EDIT:  real talk though where's the ignore function I can't find it

EDIT: Nvm

[Sand Snakes]

2 minutes ago, Noveson said:

Yeah, forget it, we just fundamentally disagree here.  You speak of duality and then complain about some of the women being bitchy(and I still have no idea why people think Brienne is bitchy for going after the woman that killed the man she loved) and then ignore the examples that don't support that.  Can there not be strong bitchy women? I mean Melisandre, Cersei, and Dany are strong bitchy woman in both the books and the show.  Arya, Sansa, Brienne are all very nice women with insecurities that are also very strong in both the books in the show.  Do you think none of them should be bitches?  

 

I said a few minutes ago that I don't see a problem in a strong woman being bitchy. Cersei is bitchy and both the show and the books and I think shes a great charachter. I just dont think every strong woman should be portraid like that. I know that not all the strong women IN THIS SHOW are made up like that,  did you read when I said hat arya and sansa are complex amazing girls? Im not ignoring that.

But SOME of the strong women in the show are more bitchy than in the books. There was no need of that, thats what im sayind. And i think thats because this general ideia that strong women are supposed to be like that- either sexy bitch or stern cruel masculin bitch. They managed to escape this cliche with sansa and arya and cathelyn and many carachters, but  put more "bitchyness" in others than you see in the book because thats how usually people think strong women should be. 

Dany is not bitchy btw. Shes strong and fair and badass. The fact that you see her as bitcht is just one more example that this is how people see powerful woman. THIS ideia annoys me. I dont think GOT is the worst example, they have great female characters, but you see this over and over in many movies and shows and it sucks when it happens, even a little, in my favorite show. 

[Sand Snakes]

And about brienne, its ok going after the woman who killed the man she loved, thats not bitchy. I imagined shw would think a lot about killing mel and fiven the opportunity maybe she would... or not... but he way she bragged about killing stannks doesnt feel like the book brienne at all. She does seem more arrogant in the show than in thw books, it is not just this scene...

[Lord Lannister]

The whole scene just struck me as petty. Interrupt a conversation to gloat about how you beheaded a wounded, defenseless man who was already dying? What's next, is she going to find a flaming heart banner and draw a penis on it? This behavior isn't new either, she's basically been pissing all over Pod last season as well. Personally I hope Sansa finds out Brienne thought it was more important to behead Stannis than keep watch on the Tower like she promised and sends her packing.

[Noveson]

2 minutes ago, Sand Snakes said:

I said a few minutes ago that I don't see a problem in a strong woman being bitchy. Cersei is bitchy and both the show and the books and I think shes a great charachter. I just dont think every strong woman should be portraid like that. I know that not all the strong women IN THIS SHOW are made up like that,  did you read when I said hat arya and sansa are complex amazing girls? Im not ignoring that.

But SOME of the strong women in the show are more bitchy than in the books. There was no need of that, thats what im sayind. And i think thats because this general ideia that strong women are supposed to be like that- either sexy bitch or stern cruel masculin bitch. They managed to escape this cliche with sansa and arya and cathelyn and many carachters, but  put more "bitchyness" in others than you see in the book because thats how usually people think strong women should be. 

Dany is not bitchy btw. Shes strong and fair and badass. The fact that you see her as bitcht is just one more example that this is how people see powerful woman. THIS ideia annoys me. I dont think GOT is the worst example, they have great female characters, but you see this over and over in many movies and shows and it sucks when it happens, even a little, in my favorite show. 

THEY AREN'T.  You literally just said that. Some are portrayed as bitchy, and some aren't, just like the real world.  Like where do you think Brienne is being bitchy?  Any examples of Margery being more bitchy in the show than the books? Because I remember her very well being super bitchy back and forth with Cersei, which is exactly what happens in the show.

You realize there's a difference between being bitchy and being a bitch right? Dany is most certainly bitchy in both the show and books, who can blame her with the amount of shit she has to put up with?? It has everything to do with being a strong personality.  I'm guessing you don't have a problem with Jaime being a cocky asshole?  Because I could write exactly the same post you did about him and end it with "just another example that the writers have to make every strong male cocky"

Honestly I think you're attributing stuff you see wrong with TV as people going after women for some reason.  Like look what they did to Stannis, does that mean that they are only characterizing strong men as heartless guys? 

[A Dance with Davos]

I really dislike show Brienne now. It was an odd delivery and it bugs me that she never realy stops to notice that Renly was an ass. She's meant to be all about duty and honour, but decides to ditch watching out for Sansa to kill Stannis, cause he killed a king who threw duty and honour to the side.

Going off-topic, but it's about Brienne.... I think they made a big mistake with changing Jaime and Brienne's storylines. They both seem to have been set aside to serve Cersei and  Sansa. Without LSH I suppose it woud be difficult to keep the direction the book versions were going, but they coud have done something with the BWB and Jaime going after Blackfish (I think he survives in the show?). They both seem so pointless now. I can understand that that storyline might not be integral to the end of the story, but it is integral for them.