Strong powerful women

[Daske]

19 hours ago, protar said:

It's the pattern the show creates though. They insert female rivalry at every turn. Between Arya and the Waif, within the Sandsnakes, between Myranda and Sansa, Osha and Meera, Dany and random khaleesi's. There's absolutely no reason for the Waif to have such an intense hatred of Arya. It's purely to create drama because D+D love writing female on female rivalries. And again, Jaqen indulging the Waif's desire to kill Arya completely goes against the established rules of the FM. They're supposed to be impartial. The Waif is being just as poor a FM as Arya is being. 

On average 33% of drama between characters will be female-female (you could argue 25% I suppose). There are a ton of female-male and male-male drama - verbal and physical fights, major rivalries and so on. How many men have Cersei and Danny had verbal sparring matches with? Many! It's GoT - everyone is having a go at everyone. It's hardly overrepresented for some women to be sparring with other women at various points.

You all want complex characters. But if a character is flawed it's 'bad writing'? I never understood why characters are not allowed to be hypocrites. The Faceless Men have this 'cool' aura from the books built up by years of speculation by fans. But they are as just human beings, as fucked up as everyone else (actually much more so given their vocation!) and clearly capable of emotion whatever their doctrine may say. They are a bunch of nasty people!

 

[HairGrowsBack]

^There's a difference between rivalry and cattiness , is all I would say 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

7 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

^There's a difference between rivalry and cattiness , is all I would say 

Where is this cattiness?

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Where is this cattiness?

Meera and Osha, Cersei and Marg, the Waif and Arya, Myranda and Sansa...I'm sure I forgot some.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Just now, HairGrowsBack said:

Meera and Osha, Cersei and Marg, the Waif and Arya, Myranda and Sansa...I'm sure I forgot some.

Pretty sexist to call it cattiness. I'd call it rivalry and dislike. 

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Pretty sexist to call it cattiness. I'd call it rivalry and dislike. 

If it is completely unfounded it is. Meera/ Osha and Waif/Arya were completely out of the blue, Myranda and Sansa (and arguably Waif/Arya) were about the Man ™

Marg and Cersei were basically stripped of the main purpose of their rivalry (ie power) and were down to "You're old ; I had dubcon sex with your son ! hahaha". Granted there was some of that in the books, but it was balanced with actual power play.

[John Doe]

47 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Pretty sexist to call it cattiness. I'd call it rivalry and dislike. 

You don't have to take everything you read in a discussion forum about a sub-par adaption of a fictional universe too seriously, I think. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

37 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

If it is completely unfounded it is. Meera/ Osha and Waif/Arya were completely out of the blue, Myranda and Sansa (and arguably Waif/Arya) were about the Man ™

Marg and Cersei were basically stripped of the main purpose of their rivalry (ie power) and were down to "You're old ; I had dubcon sex with your son ! hahaha". Granted there was some of that in the books, but it was balanced with actual power play.

So why is a situation where two females are rivals for each other described by you as 'catty'? That seems to be basically your perspective on it rather than the shows. Where does it stop? All the situations you described were two women competing for a position (FM , Queen, protector). What is it that makes that catty, would you prefer they didn't compete? Or would you prefer they got swords out and started hacking at each other.

Queen of Thorns and Cercei had a number of face offs, were they 'catty'? Or not because Lady O is old? I'm not even sure what you are asking for here, or what your complaint even is.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, John Doe said:

You don't have to take everything you read in a discussion forum about a sub-par adaption of a fictional universe too seriously, I think. 

You don't need to take everything you see in a tv adaptation seriously and look for offence in everything you see either. 

I can't take half of these discussions seriously, I just stare incredulously at the screen most of the time, in utter disbelief.

[John Doe]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

You don't need to take everything you see in a tv adaptation seriously and look for offence in everything you see either. 

I'm not offended, just disappointed, seeing so many wasted opportunities. 

[Daske]

56 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Meera and Osha, Cersei and Marg, the Waif and Arya, Myranda and Sansa...I'm sure I forgot some.

Varys and Littlefinger I think you will find are the most 'catty' scenes in the show.

People are sparring with other people all the time both verbally and physically, in lots of different ways, for lots of different reasons - it's not sexist to have some of those happen to be women.

If it was Dynasty with and Alexis & Krystle pulling each other about by the hair you might have a point. But it clearly isn't that at all. 

 

[HairGrowsBack]

33 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So why is a situation where two females are rivals for each other described by you as 'catty'? That seems to be basically your perspective on it rather than the shows. Where does it stop? All the situations you described were two women competing for a position (FM , Queen, protector). What is it that makes that catty, would you prefer they didn't compete? Or would you prefer they got swords out and started hacking at each other.

Queen of Thorns and Cercei had a number of face offs, were they 'catty'? Or not because Lady O is old? I'm not even sure what you are asking for here, or what your complaint even is.

Save for the queen position, it doesn't make sense to have any rivalry in these contexts. Why would Osha and Meera fight about who has the more skills ? What is their motivation ? They're here to protect Bran, how is bickering any help, especially with two characters who've never been shown to be petty.

FM is an instituion in which people are literally no one, as in, there is no particular place to strive for, no envious position whatsoever. Rivalry doesn't make any sense. Again, this isn't a political party or a big company. 

And the QoT/Cersei face-offs are particularly inane in that regard. 80% of it are incest and/or gay jokes. Oh, and victimizing poor Cersei, of course.

And you haven't taken on Sansa/Myranda. I'm curious what you've thought about it.

And ultimately, as I've said a good couple of times : I don't mind rivalry, and I wouldn't even mind some cattiness, if only it was more balanced. But it's not.

[HairGrowsBack]

15 minutes ago, Daske said:

Varys and Littlefinger I think you will find are the most 'catty' scenes in the show.

People are sparring with other people all the time both verbally and physically, in lots of different ways, for lots of different reasons - it's not sexist to have some of those happen to be women.

If it was Dynasty with and Alexis & Krystle pulling each other about by the hair you might have a point. But it clearly isn't that at all. 

 

Except the show actually expects us to think they're the biggest masterminds to ever walk the earth. But when women are doing it, they're just being women, and not "for a lot of reasons".

[protar]

2 hours ago, Daske said:

On average 33% of drama between characters will be female-female (you could argue 25% I suppose). There are a ton of female-male and male-male drama - verbal and physical fights, major rivalries and so on. How many men have Cersei and Danny had verbal sparring matches with? Many! It's GoT - everyone is having a go at everyone. It's hardly overrepresented for some women to be sparring with other women at various points.

You all want complex characters. But if a character is flawed it's 'bad writing'? I never understood why characters are not allowed to be hypocrites. The Faceless Men have this 'cool' aura from the books built up by years of speculation by fans. But they are as just human beings, as fucked up as everyone else (actually much more so given their vocation!) and clearly capable of emotion whatever their doctrine may say. They are a bunch of nasty people!

 

Well if there's some genuine exploration of that hypocrisy than sure. But right now it's just illogical. Jaqen has no reason to indulge in the Waif's hatred of Arya and the Waif doesn't have any real reason to hate her so much anyway. It's just drama for the sake of drama, rather than coming from a natural place. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Save for the queen position, it doesn't make sense to have any rivalry in these contexts. Why would Osha and Meera fight about who has the more skills ? What is their motivation ? They're here to protect Bran, how is bickering any help, especially with two characters who've never been shown to be petty.

FM is an instituion in which people are literally no one, as in, there is no particular place to strive for, no envious position whatsoever. Rivalry doesn't make any sense. Again, this isn't a political party or a big company. 

And the QoT/Cersei face-offs are particularly inane in that regard. 80% of it are incest and/or gay jokes. Oh, and victimizing poor Cersei, of course.

And you haven't taken on Sansa/Myranda. I'm curious what you've thought about it.

And ultimately, as I've said a good couple of times : I don't mind rivalry, and I wouldn't even mind some cattiness, if only it was more balanced. But it's not.

It makes a lot of sense. 

Osha and Myra have established their own position as protectors of Bran and see themselves as best placed to protect him, therefore its natural to be distrustful of anyone else taking that position away from you. Also Osha is a wilding, naturally less trustful in general, Meera has been protecting her brother for a while and isn't going to be especially quick in trusting others. Its also quite important that Osha is a Wildling and Wildlings aren't especially liked by those south of the wall. Makes a lot of sense for them not to get on. 

As for the Waif, I'm not sure its even been established who she is, or if she's even a FM yet, or a student. Therefore its hard to say what her motivation is. I took it that she's been wanting to be a FM for a while, but Arya is being fast tracked to the position. Either way I see nothing catty about it. Is two women who don't get on catty? I keep asking. 

QoT .. well thats you just changing your argument again. Whats up with that. Please just tell me if you consider it catty instead of trying to divert attention away from what I asked.

Sansa and Myranda is about Myranda trying to compete for her position of power within Ramsey's eyes with Sansa. Obviously Sansa isn't doing any of the competing, she's just reacting to Myrandas offensive tactics. Myranda's whole worth in her social circle is tied to Ramsey and so cannot afford to let Ramsey become too attached to Sansa or she will lose everything, possibly her life. Again.. not sure why you are calling that 'catty' unless you are just dismissing 90% of the information that storyline is giving you.

So where should this balance come? Do you think D&D should be making up some storylines just to appease your sense of injustice? Should Sansa and Myranda have actually been best buddies? What about the above point about LF and Varys.. is that balanced because they are men? When men on the show are trying to kill each other is that sexist? Where does this stop!

[Kingpin]

13 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

But when women are doing it, they're just being women, and not "for a lot of reasons".

That's just bad writing and/or acting and/or directing then. 

People judge by what they see, you can't blame them for that. 

People obviously don't think the same for all female characters, but specific characters. There obviously is not a sexist bias, so something else is responsible for it. 

 

[HairGrowsBack]

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It makes a lot of sense. 

1)Osha and Myra have established their own position as protectors of Bran and see themselves as best placed to protect him, therefore its natural to be distrustful of anyone else taking that position away from you. Also Osha is a wilding, naturally less trustful in general, Meera has been protecting her brother for a while and isn't going to be especially quick in trusting others. Its also quite important that Osha is a Wildling and Wildlings aren't especially liked by those south of the wall. Makes a lot of sense for them not to get on. 

2)As for the Waif, I'm not sure its even been established who she is, or if she's even a FM yet, or a student. Therefore its hard to say what her motivation is. I took it that she's been wanting to be a FM for a while, but Arya is being fast tracked to the position. Either way I see nothing catty about it. Is two women who don't get on catty? I keep asking. 

3)QoT .. well thats you just changing your argument again. Whats up with that. Please just tell me if you consider it catty instead of trying to divert attention away from what I asked.

4)Sansa and Myranda is about Myranda trying to compete for her position of power within Ramsey's eyes with Sansa. Obviously Sansa isn't doing any of the competing, she's just reacting to Myrandas offensive tactics. Myranda's whole worth in her social circle is tied to Ramsey and so cannot afford to let Ramsey become too attached to Sansa or she will lose everything, possibly her life. Again.. not sure why you are calling that 'catty' unless you are just dismissing 90% of the information that storyline is giving you.

5)So where should this balance come? Do you think D&D should be making up some storylines just to appease your sense of injustice? Should Sansa and Myranda have actually been best buddies? What about the above point about LF and Varys.. is that balanced because they are men? When men on the show are trying to kill each other is that sexist? Where does this stop!

1) Well then have them have a conversation about their concern for Bran's safety, and not some stupid "I skin rabbits better than you do" argument.

2) The fact that you have to do mental backflips to justify it shows that it was uncalled for, and how sloppy the writing is. We shouldn't be left hanging wondering who's this chick who can't help beat Arya black and blue.

3) I'm not changing my argument. I'm showing it's trivial name-calling and sassing, which is close to cattiness. But since it's mostly to victimize Cersei and have the mandatory sassy grandma, I'll give you that one. Cattiness might not be the point.

4) They are literally fighting over Ramsay. Myranda fearing for her position has nothing to do with Sansa ; she's lowborn, she should know he'd marry someone else eventually. Not to mention she seems particularly privileged, attending nobles' weddings and all that. To be fair, though, the entire storyline is nonsensical, so it's quite difficult to analyse.

5) There are several positive relationships in the source material. They are there, they exist, use them. Don't turn them into the opposite, and don't make up additional cattiness. Because, as much as I don't wish for them to make up positive relationships, they seem hellbent on making up negative ones.

[Daske]

17 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Except the show actually expects us to think they're the biggest masterminds to ever walk the earth. But when women are doing it, they're just being women, and not "for a lot of reasons".

Just don't agree. Most interactions are for the story.

Except, I agree, QoT... but...

33 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

...

And the QoT/Cersei face-offs are particularly inane in that regard. 80% of it are incest and/or gay jokes. Oh, and victimizing poor Cersei, of course.

...

She does the exact same thing with Tywin (a man!). It's a QoT thing, not a girl-on-girl thing. Why point to Cersei and ignore Tywin?

She is the Queen of Thorns. The show didn't make up that name.

 

[HairGrowsBack]

5 minutes ago, Daske said:

Just don't agree. Most interactions are for the story.

Except, I agree, QoT... but...

She does the exact same thing with Tywin (a man!). It's a QoT thing, not a girl-on-girl thing. Why point to Cersei and ignore Tywin?

She is the Queen of Thorns. The show didn't make up that name.

 

I did concede in my last post it wasn't the main purpose. It's still trivial and useless as brackets on a chicken, but here you go...

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

10 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

1) Well then have them have a conversation about their concern for Bran's safety, and not some stupid "I skin rabbits better than you do" argument.

2) The fact that you have to do mental backflips to justify it shows that it was uncalled for, and how sloppy the writing is. We shouldn't be left hanging wondering who's this chick who can't help beat Arya black and blue.

3) I'm not changing my argument. I'm showing it's trivial name-calling and sassing, which is close to cattiness. But since it's mostly to victimize Cersei and have the mandatory sassy grandma, I'll give you that one. Cattiness might not be the point.

4) They are literally fighting over Ramsay. Myranda fearing for her position has nothing to do with Sansa ; she's lowborn, she should know he'd marry someone else eventually. Not to mention she seems particularly privileged, attending nobles' weddings and all that. To be fair, though, the entire storyline is nonsensical, so it's quite difficult to analyse.

5) There are several positive relationships in the source material. They are there, they exist, use them. Don't turn them into the opposite, and don't make up additional cattiness. Because, as much as I don't wish for them to make up positive relationships, they seem hellbent on making up negative ones.

1) I think you simply are unable to see past the words they are saying and take them at face value. A consistent problem with ranter arguments. I've laid out reasoning behind their arguments, if you choose to take everything somebody says to be about that then thats up to you.

2) Why should it be important who the Waif is? Why does it need to be laid out? I understood that she is helping train Arya, doesn't especially like her and feels a sort of rivalry. Why do you need to know more than that? Why do you need everything laid on a plate for you.

3) See the above comment. Thats how Lady O is, she has a biting personality. What else are you expecting? Your argument basically hinges on them completely changing every character from the books so that you are not offended.

4) Wrong. Myranda is fighting over Ramsey, Sansa is defending herself. She knows without Ramsey she has no power is probably dead, she's trying to find a way to survive. As usual I find it odd you cannot understand that.

5) And which of these relationships should they crowbar into the story to please you? Is adding balance to perceived cattiness now a major priority to the producers on top of all the other thousand supposed slights against fandom you guys pull out?