Strong powerful women

[Crixus]

I think another poster nailed it pages ago: it isn't just the women who are at odds in the show, it's the men too. The show creates drama out of conflict and seems to rely too heavily on that. Even Tyrion's 'friendship' with Varys is littered with adolescent dick jokes. That's how the show rolls. Especially of late. 

[Liver and Onions]

The show does not have every relationship between two female characters riddled with cattiness, but it does add it where there was none before, which is to its detriment. Instead of using conflict to reveal character, it uses it to fill screen time, advancing neither plot nor personality.

On to another topic re: Strong Female Characters, I've seen folks posit that Dany is stronger for having killed the Khals on her own instead of relying on Drogon. And yet last season we had her being rescued by her dragon-son instead of her cowing him and saving both of them at the same time. Is the show trying to make up for this? Is Dany weaker for relying on her dragon? I don't think so, since she faced Drogon in the bit. She stared down fiery death and won. She earned it, like a Final Fantasy character defeating a summoning monster. Makes for an odd human-mother/dragon-child relationship, but there you go.

Am I looking forward to her frying a certain Khal in the book? Oh yes.

[Tianzi]

So, Yara is every bit as macho as any Ironborn. Whoring? Check. And she will force her little dickless brother to drink, because that is how he remembers how to be a man

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

So, Yara is every bit as macho as any Ironborn. Whoring? Check. And she will force her little dickless brother to drink, because that is how he remembers how to be a man

So?

[Orphalesion]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

So, Yara is every bit as macho as any Ironborn. Whoring? Check. And she will force her little dickless brother to drink, because that is how he remembers how to be a man

I actually find it a bit out of the blue that one of the two most traditionally masculine female characters on the show just has to be homo-/bisexual. I don't think Asha was in the books (can't really remember, Iron Born bore me)

Also whoring and drinking aren't really admirable behaviors in a man or a woman. 

So IF you meant this to complement the way Yara is portrayed, then we are just back to the old, low fantasy cliche of making a woman "strong" by turning her into a, particularly unpleasant, guy with breasts. 

Young Lady Mormont was way more bad-ass than Yara in this episode, simply because she didn't resort to any ridiculous grandstanding like Yara did, she didn't have to, she know she's badass and ergo doesn't have to prove it. 

Yara (and the Iron Born as a culture) know that they are ratty, smelly losers, so they need to talk big in hopes of convincing someone very gullible that they are a threat.

 

[Tianzi]

39 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I actually find it a bit out of the blue that one of the two most traditionally masculine female characters on the show just has to be homo-/bisexual. I don't think Asha was in the books (can't really remember, Iron Born bore me)

Also whoring and drinking aren't really admirable behaviors in a man or a woman. 

So IF you meant this to complement the way Yara is portrayed, then we are just back to the old, low fantasy cliche of making a woman "strong" by turning her into a, particularly unpleasant, guy with breasts. 

No, I was making fun of making her a stereotypical butch lesbian to hammer the point she was 'tough'. And yes, Yara was heterosexual in the books. They apparently took the nickname of her lover, 'Qarl the Maid' very seriously.

And the second traditionally masculine female in the show (actually, the first...) would be Brienne, when was she homo/bisexual?

 

[Liver and Onions]

3 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

No, I was making fun of making her a stereotypical butch lesbian to hammer the point she was 'tough'. And yes, Yara was heterosexual in the books. They apparently took the nickname of her lover, 'Qarl the Maid' very seriously.

And the second traditionally masculine female in the show (actually, the first...) would be Brienne, when was she homo/bisexual?

 

I think the reference to Brienne as a lesbian was from the commentary by the director of the episode with the bath scene in Harrenhal. Which was an odd thing to say, really, since Brienne clearly had a thing for Renly.

It's disappointing that they chose to portray Asha in this way. You could argue showing her as lesbian or bi makes for good representation, but I expect it's just for the boob quota. 

[Orphalesion]

16 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

No, I was making fun of making her a stereotypical butch lesbian to hammer the point she was 'tough'. And yes, Yara was heterosexual in the books. They apparently took the nickname of her lover, 'Qarl the Maid' very seriously.

And the second traditionally masculine female in the show (actually, the first...) would be Brienne, when was she homo/bisexual?

 

Ah okay, I'm relieved that you were making a joke. Sorry, but you know sarcasm doesn't translate well into text :-P

Right, I remember Qarl now.

I said "one of the two" most traditionally masculine female characters. Yara is the one of the two they have turned into a lesbian/bisexual out of the blue. Brienne is the other one, who hasn't been portrayed as lesbian or bisexual.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against gay-, bi-, pan- or omnisexual characters, I am gay myself, I just particularly dislike it when media links homosexuality with masculine behavior in women or feminine behavior in men., because it plays into old stereotypes.

That all being said I still think Lyanna Mormont needs to be noticed in this thread. She was all Yara, Elaria and the Sand Snakes should have been and in a fraction of screen time.

[Tianzi]

16 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

I think the reference to Brienne as a lesbian was from the commentary by the director of the episode with the bath scene in Harrenhal. Which was an odd thing to say, really, since Brienne clearly had a thing for Renly.

It's disappointing that they chose to portray Asha in this way. You could argue showing her as lesbian or bi makes for good representation, but I expect it's just for the boob quota. 

Oh gods...

I think the Yara scene's theme was how much more of a MAN she is compared to her loser brother, but... if they had (nomen omen) balls about her newfound characterization, they would have her seducing Daenerys

2 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Ah okay, I'm relieved that you were making a joke. Sorry, but you know sarcasm doesn't translate well into text :-P

Right, I remember Qarl now.

I said "one of the two" most traditionally masculine female characters. Yara is the one of the two they have turned into a lesbian/bisexual out of the blue. Brienne is the other one, who hasn't been portrayed as lesbian or bisexual.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against gay-, bi-, pan- or omnisexual characters, I am gay myself, I just particularly dislike it when media links homosexuality with masculine behavior in women or feminine behavior in men., because it plays into old stereotypes.

That all being said I still think Lyanna Mormont needs to be noticed in this thread. She was all Yara, Elaria and the Sand Snakes should have been and in a fraction of screen time.

Yes, it's not about showing lesbians, it's about speaking in stereotypes about it.

Lyanna Mormont was kind of a brat in my eyes, but I say she lived up to her attitude. And I kind of liked how she shot down Sansa's attempts to talk about beauty.

[Vernon Roche]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

I actually find it a bit out of the blue that one of the two most traditionally masculine female characters on the show just has to be homo-/bisexual. I don't think Asha was in the books (can't really remember, Iron Born bore me)

Also whoring and drinking aren't really admirable behaviors in a man or a woman. 

So IF you meant this to complement the way Yara is portrayed, then we are just back to the old, low fantasy cliche of making a woman "strong" by turning her into a, particularly unpleasant, guy with breasts. 

Young Lady Mormont was way more bad-ass than Yara in this episode, simply because she didn't resort to any ridiculous grandstanding like Yara did, she didn't have to, she know she's badass and ergo doesn't have to prove it. 

Yara (and the Iron Born as a culture) know that they are ratty, smelly losers, so they need to talk big in hopes of convincing someone very gullible that they are a threat.

 

To you and I they might not be, but to the culture she grew up in as far as the show is concerned it is. They constantly portray the Iron Born as "macho", it's not overly surprisingly that in that context Yara behaves in hyper masculine ways as a means of projecting some level of power in the social hierarchy she is expected to have some level of control over.

I'd explain why she so loudly boasted what she was going to do, it all came across not as "lets make her a man with tits" but as somebody projecting to fit in and maintain control.

In comparison, girls like Mormont exists in a culture with a pseudo-chivalric code where at least for pretences respecting women and treating them with dignity is to be praised, it's different cultures "in the show verse" and it doesn't entirely make no sense.

[Liver and Onions]

1 minute ago, Vernon Roche said:

To you and I they might not be, but to the culture she grew up in as far as the show is concerned it is. They constantly portray the Iron Born as "macho", it's not overly surprisingly that in that context Yara behaves in hyper masculine ways as a means of projecting some level of power in the social hierarchy she is expected to have some level of control over.

I'd explain why she so loudly boasted what she was going to do, it all came across not as "lets make her a man with tits" but as somebody projecting to fit in and maintain control.

In comparison, girls like Mormont exists in a culture with a pseudo-chivalric code where at least for pretences respecting women and treating them with dignity is to be praised, it's different cultures "in the show verse" and it doesn't entirely make no sense.

That's a fair observation. It's interesting to say that Yara would boast about her sexual prowess in order to fit in with a hyper masculine culture. I don't know if that would make her look "cool" in front of the men, or if they'd think that's she's a freak. It might end up being a bit of both. Her men might spread stories about her having male and female parts, or worse things like bedding demons and eating babies. She'd run the risk of being seen as "unnatural" to them. In modern times, a woman acting in a stereotypical masculine manner (twice as hard, of course) can be seen as cool, fitting in, pushing back, one of the guys. But in Westeros times, it would probably have different consequences. 

That does bring up another aspect of the show, that it doesn't properly convey the sense of the times. It's supposed to take place in a medieval society, and yet there are some parts that feel anachronistic to the point of distraction. That might be a subject for another thread, though.

[Orphalesion]

9 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I'd explain why she so loudly boasted what she was going to do, it all came across not as "lets make her a man with tits" but as somebody projecting to fit in and maintain control.

That possibility did cross my mind. And it would be valid if they had tacked on a scene with Yara and the prostitute in their private room, where Yara tells her to keep her skirts on since "it's all just a show to keep my men under my control"  you know, like Captian Shakespeare.

[Liver and Onions]

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Oh gods...

I think the Yara scene's theme was how much more of a MAN she is compared to her loser brother, but... if they had (nomen omen) balls about her newfound characterization, they would have her seducing Daenerys

Yes, it's not about showing lesbians, it's about speaking in stereotypes about it.

Lyanna Mormont was kind of a brat in my eyes, but I say she lived up to her attitude. And I kind of liked how she shot down Sansa's attempts to talk about beauty.

I double checked that reference on Brienne being a lesbian. Seems it was that episode's writer, which makes it even weirder, IMO. 

I admit Book Dany and Asha could be good friends. Hopefully they live long enough to meet.

[Vernon Roche]

1 minute ago, Liver and Onions said:

That's a fair observation. It's interesting to say that Yara would boast about her sexual prowess in order to fit in with a hyper masculine culture. I don't know if that would make her look "cool" in front of the men, or if they'd think that's she's a freak. It might end up being a bit of both. Her men might spread stories about her having male and female parts, or worse things like bedding demons and eating babies. She'd run the risk of being seen as "unnatural" to them. In modern times, a woman acting in a stereotypical masculine manner (twice as hard, of course) can be seen as cool, fitting in, pushing back, one of the guys. But in Westeros times, it would probably have different consequences. 

That does bring up another aspect of the show, that it doesn't properly convey the sense of the times. It's supposed to take place in a medieval society, and yet there are some parts that feel anachronistic to the point of distraction. That might be a subject for another thread, though.

I always try and think... what would the people of Westeros (in so much as the TV show has established them) think when I assess how I feel about the way characters respond. It's very tempting to judge historical figures through our own moral compass when we need to look at whether they are behaving in a way that makes sense for the culture. With Yara for instance, why loudly proclaim it if you weren't trying to show off? She could have took the girl to a room quietly and had her way with her if it was PURELY for sexual gratification. That to me makes me feel her boasting was to achieve something. You could also look at it another way, perhaps she was behaving that way and forcing Theon to drink alcohol in a way to try and snap him out of his victimised state. There's definitely a few perspectives you could take with it.

The problem with the show (and many books to be fair) is, it's a mix of different cultures from completely different periods of history which may have made sense in the confines of reality and the time and place they occupied but when juxtaposed against one another can feel a little jarring.

[Vernon Roche]

5 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That possibility did cross my mind. And it would be valid if they had tacked on a scene with Yara and the prostitute in their private room, where Yara tells her to keep her skirts on since "it's all just a show to keep my men under my control"  you know, like Captian Shakespeare.

I think a lot gets lost through the necessity to devote specific time to specific characters. I wish the show could just get 12 seasons, go into real depth, explain things with much better clarity and less leaving it to interpretation but sadly, that isn't what we're going to get with any show.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I always try and think... what would the people of Westeros (in so much as the TV show has established them) think when I assess how I feel about the way characters respond. It's very tempting to judge historical figures through our own moral compass when we need to look at whether they are behaving in a way that makes sense for the culture. With Yara for instance, why loudly proclaim it if you weren't trying to show off? She could have took the girl to a room quietly and had her way with her if it was PURELY for sexual gratification. That to me makes me feel her boasting was to achieve something. You could also look at it another way, perhaps she was behaving that way and forcing Theon to drink alcohol in a way to try and snap him out of his victimised state. There's definitely a few perspectives you could take with it.

You are right.

But the show isn't taking any of those perspectives. There is no take on Yara's sudden lesbianism/bisexuality. It's not adressed what it is to her, neither how her men react to it... I see it as a heavy-handed attempt to show how much (more than Theon) she is one of the boys. And not an attempt on her side, to drill it into her men's heads, but the writers' attempt to drill it into the audience's heads.

[Orphalesion]

Just now, Tianzi said:

You are right.

But the show isn't taking any of those perspectives. There is no take on Yara's sudden lesbianism/bisexuality. It's not adressed what it is to her, neither how her men react to it... I see it as a heavy-handed attempt to show how much (more than Theon) she is one of the boys. And not an attempt on her side, to drill it into her men's heads, but the writers' attempt to drill it into the audience's heads.

Exactly!

Plus this would hold more credibility if last season didn't see the Sand Snakes behave in a similarly silly, over-the-top manner...when nobody was around to even see them, well except for the guy they buried in the sand and killed shortly after that is...

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

You are right.

But the show isn't taking any of those perspectives. There is no take on Yara's sudden lesbianism/bisexuality. It's not adressed what it is to her, neither how her men react to it... I see it as a heavy-handed attempt to show how much (more than Theon) she is one of the boys. And not an attempt on her side, to drill it into her men's heads, but the writers' attempt to drill it into the audience's heads.

The show just reeks of "toxic masculinity" (or whatever you want to call it), and never misses a chance to hammer it to the audience. This isn't a case of "depicting and condemning", this is pure unfiltered condoning.

[OldGimletEye]

27 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

The show just reeks of "toxic masculinity" (or whatever you want to call it), and never misses a chance to hammer it to the audience. This isn't a case of "depicting and condemning", this is pure unfiltered condoning.

I'd call it "toxic idiocy". I have never thought anything about "masculinity" requires you to:
1. Act like a moron
2. Talk like a moron.
3. Act like a bully
4. Talk like a bully.
5. Talk like some goddamned war mongering meglomaniac nitwit.
6. Be completely insentive to somebody that rightfully should have trauma or PSTD.
7. And, in general, act like an undisciplined frat boy who is incable of doing anything more, than just thinking with your dick.

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

I'd call it "toxic idiocy". I have never thought anything about "masculinity" requires you to:
1. Act like a moron
2. Talk like a moron.
3. Act like a bully
4. Talk like a bully.
5. Talk like some goddamned war mongering meglomaniac nitwit.
6. Be completely insentive to somebody that rightfully should have trauma or PSTD.
7. And, in general, act like an undisciplined frat boy who is incable of doing anything more, than just thinking with your dick.

Well, as sad as it sounds, to many people, all of this is required to be a real maan.