Strong powerful women

[RoamingRonin]

Let me get this straight: 

1. Arya was given a coin that would permit her entry to the House of Many Faces.

2. Arya arrives in Braavos and tells Jaqen she wants to be No One and she wants to be a Faceless Man. 

3. She practices martial arts, lying and wearing the faces of other people. 

4. The Waif tells Arya she didn't earn the coin, doesn't respect it and will never be one of them.

But yet: 

You need an explanation. 

Could it be that Arya is training to be become a Faceless Man? 

Could it be the Waif doesn't respect Arya as a potential new member?

I know you'll LOL but you're embarrassing yourself by pretending this is all so difficult to comprehend because ZOMG BAD WRITING LMAO D&D PLS. 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Let me get this straight: 

1. Arya was given a coin that would permit her entry to the House of Many Faces.

2. Arya arrives in Braavos and tells Jaqen she wants to be No One and she wants to be a Faceless Man. 

3. She practices martial arts, lying and wearing the faces of other people. 

4. The Waif tells Arya she didn't earn the coin, doesn't respect it and will never be one of them.

But yet: 

You need an explanation. 

Could it be that Arya is training to be become a Faceless Man? 

Could it be the Waif doesn't respect Arya as a potential new member?

I know you'll LOL but you're embarrassing yourself by pretending this is all so difficult to comprehend because ZOMG BAD WRITING LMAO D&D PLS. 

You appear to be not understanding my comments, so there is no point in my attempting again to clarify. 

[Kingpin]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

They are out of place. You raised the argument of certain events 'feeling forced' and in Ramsay's or Sand Snakes' cases the circumstances have to be heavily strained for any of their 'badassery' to succeed.

And Sam is definitely not on the top of food chain if they were to choose world's strongest man, I agree. But having him survived where the others didn't and kill a White Walker where nobody else managed that, counts as well, and many of the 'tougher' characters who belittle him would (and have) spectacularly failed in his place.

Well I never felt once that anything was forced. They have personal skill, that there is no Dayne to test themselves anywhere near is not their problem. Physically and mentally they can back up their attitude.

Sam's achievements were purely out of plot and make no sense. That guy wouldn't last a minute in a fight, let alone survive out there. If it was someone else physically capable and showed any improvement in his skills to a decent level then I wouldn't mind, but that guy is physically incapable to back up what the plot says. Also the hypocricy of his lines and his acts, if you're so tough face your father right there and then. In reality he wouldn't be able to even follow those tougher characters. Yes the actor matters too, Brienne could never be a midget cause she wouldn't be able to physically lift a sword, so a Brienne was played by a midget it would be a laughable sight and a joke.

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Olenna is further on that road that Marg, no argument with that, but the core is the same: working the system. In a world constructed like Westeros this is a primary ability to generate power, and Marg is good at that even if her major (though not only) skill is manipulating a teenage boy's hormones.

And case in point: Margaery freed herself from the prison, while Olenna was powerless to do so (even if the Tyrell army intervened it would be Mace, not Olenna).

More on that: LF is a prime example of working the system, earning his share himself and being on the top of conspiracy chain. Still, in the 'power is power' scene when he started barking at Cersei (very out of character behaviour for him, btw), she shut him up in a blink and could have him killed (and would if he pissed her off, because she is Cersei and she wouldn't think it through). And so could Sansa with one word to Brienne.

And there is Varys' 'power lies where the people believe it lies'. Joffrey is an utter little shit and there is no talk about 'respect' for him or getting anything himself, but he proved that his one whim was enough to cross everybody else's plans and merrily send the country to the war.

I never said Olenna is all powerful, I said she can back up her attitude. In the case you mention, apparently so can the high sparrow, so there it is, an equal mental enemy. Tywin died, so what? It doesn't change the fact that he could back up his attitude. 

LF is another character worthy of respect, Varys too. They can back up their attitude and know their place, everything they have is due to their own skills. Joffrey had no skill of his own, he was put on the throne like Tommen, equally useless characters. 

About Daenerys, you want to consider her being attractive a power? Fine, I'll concede one. I am not sure how many people would like that but whatever. She's physically incapable, mentally she's not intelligent, unexperienced, no knowledge or perception of the world around her, Melisandre is pretty much superior in every way. Besides, as with other characters, it's not the attitude that is the problem, it's the attitude compared to your abilities. So she could be twice as powerful as, let's say for the sake of it Brienne, but if her attitude is ten times the attitude of Brienne, then Brienne is a respected character and Daenerys is not. 

If you're going to act like Palpatine, you better have the powers of Palpatine. 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Let me get this straight: 

1. Arya was given a coin that would permit her entry to the House of Many Faces.

2. Arya arrives in Braavos and tells Jaqen she wants to be No One and she wants to be a Faceless Man. 

3. She practices martial arts, lying and wearing the faces of other people. 

4. The Waif tells Arya she didn't earn the coin, doesn't respect it and will never be one of them.

But yet: 

You need an explanation. 

Could it be that Arya is training to be become a Faceless Man? 

Could it be the Waif doesn't respect Arya as a potential new member?

I know you'll LOL but you're embarrassing yourself by pretending this is all so difficult to comprehend because ZOMG BAD WRITING LMAO D&D PLS. 

Dont worry, they will just follow the familiar pattern of willfully misunderstanding scenes, and then changing the subject when you carefully lay out exactly what is happening. Its painful to watch. I feel for you.

[protar]

3 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

The same thing applies to the male characters on the show. I don't know what your point is. This is a drama so its no surprise there is consistent conflict between characters. 

Yes, there's going to be drama and rivalries. But there should also be friendships, alliances...positive relationships. There's little to none of that between female characters. Basically just Brienne and Sansa. It paints a pattern where women seem unable to be friends in D+D's writing. Which is an all too common trope.

You clearly misunderstand the rules.

Enlighten me then. 

[RoamingRonin]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Dont worry, they will just follow the familiar pattern of willfully misunderstanding scenes, and then changing the subject when you carefully lay out exactly what is happening. Its painful to watch. I feel for you.

It's alright. It was my last reply. 

51 minutes ago, protar said:

Yes, there's going to be drama and rivalries. But there should also be friendships, alliances...positive relationships. There's little to none of that between female characters. Basically just Brienne and Sansa. It paints a pattern where women seem unable to be friends in D+D's writing. Which is an all too common trope.

Why can't D&D learn from the books? Then again, Catelyn and Lysa were rivals. So were Arya and Sansa. Cersei and Marge. Lady Mormont and Asha. Dany and the Green Grace. Catelyn and Brienne was positive but then it turned sour after Lady Stoneheart appeared. Arianne manipulates Myrcella and almost gets her killed. 

Actually, I'm finding it hard to think of positive relationships between women in the series. Please remind me?

At this point in the series there aren't many positive relationships between men. Most are out of necessity, not friendship. 

Quote

Enlighten me then.

Arya broke the rules. The Waif's desires have nothing to do with it. Why do you think he sent her to watch Arya? What do you think happens to FM that fail... they just let them go?  

[Marcus Agrippa]

Can I interject and say I have no idea how this devolved into something so very insaning?

 

Getting back on topic, I don't know. A friend of mine asked me about Arya's arc and I have no idea why she went to Braavos as of yet. However, I think given the context of whats going on, (youtube has some of the scenes so I can at least understand whats up) I think her learning how to fight is the imporant thing. The faceless man bit... welll I can't make a heads or tails of that in the show. However, in the book I am not sure if she will learn how to change her face either. Her learning how to fight is the reason why she is in Braavos. Venice in our world had a vastly superior   Way of fighting compared to the germanic/celtic countries. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

It's alright. It was my last reply. 

Why can't D&D learn from the books? Then again, Catelyn and Lysa were rivals. So were Arya and Sansa. Cersei and Marge. Lady Mormont and Asha. Dany and the Green Grace. Catelyn and Brienne was positive but then it turned sour after Lady Stoneheart appeared. Arianne manipulates Myrcella and almost gets her killed. 

Actually, I'm finding it hard to think of positive relationships between women in the series. Please remind me?

At this point in the series there aren't many positive relationships between men. Most are out of necessity, not friendship. 

Arya broke the rules. The Waif's desires have nothing to do with it. Why do you think he sent her to watch Arya? What do you think happens to FM that fail... they just let them go?  

The relationships you mention are very different imo. Catelyn was looking forward to seeing Lysa again after so many years, and the problems started when she realised Lysa was totally unstable and not acting like a reliable person, let alone a loving or warm sister. Something the Blackfish confirmed btw. Arya and Sansa have a very normal type of sister rivalry, especially given that they have very different temperaments. Aly Mormont and Asha are suspicious at first, both very wary after all they'd seen and with good reason. But they get to know each other, and develop a nice and trusting bond. Dany and the GG I won'y even address because I don't see how it fits here at all. Brienne and Catelyn formed a wonderful bond; but Stoneheart is not Catelyn. I agree that Arianne was manipulating Myrcella, but still, they don't act like catty hormonal bitches, do they? And that is the issue being discussed. No one is saying that every woman has to get on fabulously with every other woman all the time. But to reduce their conflicts to 'women are hormonal nuts who are always catty each other' is fucking ridiculous. 

The one I more or less feel  I can agree with is Cersei and Marg, but even in that relationship there's a lot more going on around them and those things impact how they act and react as well. Still, as I said, I agree but that's it. 

 And the bold, that's exactly the point: Bobcut's desires should have absolutely nothing to do with any of it, but the way she acts tells us different. She acts like she has personal issues with Arya, and that should not be the case. 

[Nami]

Strong women =/= one dimensional female characters

[Nevets]

33 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Arya broke the rules. The Waif's desires have nothing to do with it. Why do you think he sent her to watch Arya? What do you think happens to FM that fail... they just let them go? 

Given that she is a mere apprentice, yeah, they might just let her go, depending on the rules violation.  There would probably be some sort of price, like promises of secrecy and future help, but they probably have some sort of procedure for washouts that doesn't involve getting killed.  That's one purpose of apprenticeship in the first place.  Determining suitability.

24 minutes ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

Getting back on topic, I don't know. A friend of mine asked me about Arya's arc and I have no idea why she went to Braavos as of yet. However, I think given the context of whats going on, (youtube has some of the scenes so I can at least understand whats up) I think her learning how to fight is the imporant thing. The faceless man bit... welll I can't make a heads or tails of that in the show. However, in the book I am not sure if she will learn how to change her face either. Her learning how to fight is the reason why she is in Braavos. Venice in our world had a vastly superior   Way of fighting compared to the germanic/celtic countries. 

In the books she appears to be learning skills like gathering information, changing her appearance, and a sense of self-discipline.  I also expect her ability to function while blind to be useful to her.  If she is learning weapons skills, I haven't seen it.  

What she is learning in the show?  I have no idea.  

[Cas Stark]

27 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Given that she is a mere apprentice, yeah, they might just let her go, depending on the rules violation.  There would probably be some sort of price, like promises of secrecy and future help, but they probably have some sort of procedure for washouts that doesn't involve getting killed.  That's one purpose of apprenticeship in the first place.  Determining suitability.

In the books she appears to be learning skills like gathering information, changing her appearance, and a sense of self-discipline.  I also expect her ability to function while blind to be useful to her.  If she is learning weapons skills, I haven't seen it.  

What she is learning in the show?  I have no idea.  

Why?  Death is a gift in their eyes, why then, wouldn't they give the gift to their apprentices who wash out?  They're a death cult, after all.

I don't see her learning anything in the show either, except how to fight with a stick.  

[Maid So Fair]

46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why?  Death is a gift in their eyes, why then, wouldn't they give the gift to their apprentices who wash out?  They're a death cult, after all.

I don't see her learning anything in the show either, except how to fight with a stick.  

There are rules to their killing though and they don't seem to approve of killing random people. Jacques is pretty reluctant to kill all those extra men for Weasel soup and Arya's constantly offered the option to leave. They might be willing to trade a life at least.

I miss Arya the spymaster.

[Tianzi]

5 hours ago, Kingpin said:

Well I never felt once that anything was forced. They have personal skill, that there is no Dayne to test themselves anywhere near is not their problem. Physically and mentally they can back up their attitude.

Sam's achievements were purely out of plot and make no sense. That guy wouldn't last a minute in a fight, let alone survive out there. If it was someone else physically capable and showed any improvement in his skills to a decent level then I wouldn't mind, but that guy is physically incapable to back up what the plot says. Also the hypocricy of his lines and his acts, if you're so tough face your father right there and then. In reality he wouldn't be able to even follow those tougher characters. Yes the actor matters too, Brienne could never be a midget cause she wouldn't be able to physically lift a sword, so a Brienne was played by a midget it would be a laughable sight and a joke.

No, they don't have personal skills, at least on par with what they 'achieved'. High Sparrow - an example of a villain whom I despise, but who is done right - has personal skills. He used Cersei's blind ambition, Tommen's gullibility, Marg's love for her brother - the traits really extablished and existing in this characters - to achieve his ends. There was no plot accomodating to him.

On the other hand, Roose Bolton, Lord Careful and Pragmatic is conveniently dumbed down (no men loyal to him around, flaunting the new her, ignoring VERY OBVIOUS signs of what's going inside Ramsay's mind) for the sake of his psycho son getting rid of him. Ramsay fights shirtless against people in armor (he should be way deader than Sam). Doran, who declared to stay on guard because shitstorm is coming, and who already saw Ellaria and SS trying to kill Myrcella, suddenly is trusting (not to mention those geniuses allowing Ellaria near Myrcella), his elite bodyguard who also declared to stay on guard, goes from one hit from a little girl, Sand Snakes teleport to KL to kill Trystane... sorry, I'd sooner buy Sam being able to pull a badass in a crisis situation (not saying he is a regular one).

6 hours ago, Kingpin said:

I never said Olenna is all powerful, I said she can back up her attitude. In the case you mention, apparently so can the high sparrow, so there it is, an equal mental enemy. Tywin died, so what? It doesn't change the fact that he could back up his attitude. 

LF is another character worthy of respect, Varys too. They can back up their attitude and know their place, everything they have is due to their own skills. Joffrey had no skill of his own, he was put on the throne like Tommen, equally useless characters. 

About Daenerys, you want to consider her being attractive a power? Fine, I'll concede one. I am not sure how many people would like that but whatever. She's physically incapable, mentally she's not intelligent, unexperienced, no knowledge or perception of the world around her, Melisandre is pretty much superior in every way. Besides, as with other characters, it's not the attitude that is the problem, it's the attitude compared to your abilities. So she could be twice as powerful as, let's say for the sake of it Brienne, but if her attitude is ten times the attitude of Brienne, then Brienne is a respected character and Daenerys is not. 

If you're going to act like Palpatine, you better have the powers of Palpatine. 

Tywin died, but he could legitimately think his son was locked in a dungeon. There is no disgrace in that, potty or not.

But had Littlefinger died challenging Cersei to a pissing contest - which was possible, knowing Cersei - he would die because of his stupidity and exactly not knowing his place, skills or not.

Being attractive, manipulative or charismatic is a power, yes. It makes you able to influence and control things. And Daenerys is packing dragons (well, not completely in control of them, but hatched them and is able to use them to a degree), which are worth more than ten Briennes. So she can have attitude, sorry.

If you're going to act powerful, better be powerful, right. Only the power often derives from something else than just 'personal skills', and so if a little shit like Joffrey is the king of Westeros, he can legitimately have the attitude of a king. He has kingship to back it up.

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Arya broke the rules. The Waif's desires have nothing to do with it. Why do you think he sent her to watch Arya? What do you think happens to FM that fail... they just let them go?  

Then why she is all like 'Daddy, you proooomised'? We can say many things about the balance between those characters, but the Waif being objective, professional and not at all spiteful toward Arya is not one of them.

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Why can't D&D learn from the books? Then again, Catelyn and Lysa were rivals. So were Arya and Sansa. Cersei and Marge. Lady Mormont and Asha. Dany and the Green Grace. Catelyn and Brienne was positive but then it turned sour after Lady Stoneheart appeared. Arianne manipulates Myrcella and almost gets her killed. 

There were reasons for all of that (and Lysa and Cat's 'rivalry' was pretty one sided). Even the damn Myranda had a reason to resent Sansa. But the Waif's hostility towards Arya seems like pure cattiness.

[Kingpin]

21 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

and so if a little shit like Joffrey is the king of Westeros, he can legitimately have the attitude of a king

He can as much as we can call him a joke. Fact is he had nothing, and died a nothing. The same thing hopefully will happen to Daenerys, Sansa and Tommen, they're the next nothings of the show. 

So we disagree, that's fine. 

[RoamingRonin]

4 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Then why she is all like 'Daddy, you proooomised'? We can say many things about the balance between those characters, but the Waif being objective, professional and not at all spiteful toward Arya is not one of them.

There were reasons for all of that (and Lysa and Cat's 'rivalry' was pretty one sided). Even the damn Myranda had a reason to resent Sansa. But the Waif's hostility towards Arya seems like pure cattiness.

My personal theory is that the Waif - on the show - hasn't fully completed her training either (which is why she's wearing the same robes as Arya). Perhaps this is a test for her and Arya.

The Waif isn't all that wrong in her assessment of Arya so I wouldn't mark it up to cattiness. She reminds me of Allister Thorne more than some Faceless Queen Bee.

[BlueNightzx]

Littlefinger has a very interesting line, that i believe not only says a lot about cersei, but about other characters as well, as Dany, sansa, the late joffrey and so on.

Every man's a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players. Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it

[HairGrowsBack]

7 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

There are rules to their killing though and they don't seem to approve of killing random people. Jacques is pretty reluctant to kill all those extra men for Weasel soup and Arya's constantly offered the option to leave. They might be willing to trade a life at least.

I miss Arya the spymaster.

Yup, that's why France didn't go to Iraq 

Anyway, I agree that, while Arya's arc might seem the same on surface level, it has very little to do with actual training. She never learns anything, they're not teaching her how to gather potentially useful information, how to go about without being seen, how to read people, etc.. Even the beatings have lost their meaning, because she doesn't use ruse to block the attacks, nor do we get to see her skinchange.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yup, that's why France didn't go to Iraq 

Anyway, I agree that, while Arya's arc might seem the same on surface level, it has very little to do with actual training. She never learns anything, they're not teaching her how to gather potentially useful information, how to go about without being seen, how to read people, etc.. Even the beatings have lost their meaning, because she doesn't use ruse to block the attacks, nor do we get to see her skinchange.

While I agree that there has been a little too much focus on fighting, she has been instructed in using her senses for things other than fighting, to hear useful bits of information etc. It wasn't just about the beatings.

[Tianzi]

8 hours ago, Kingpin said:

He can as much as we can call him a joke. Fact is he had nothing, and died a nothing. The same thing hopefully will happen to Daenerys, Sansa and Tommen, they're the next nothings of the show. 

So we disagree, that's fine. 

I don't think any of the Starks laughed at Joffrey's joke on Ned And Tommen is nothing alright, but that's because he has no will of his own.

4 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

My personal theory is that the Waif - on the show - hasn't fully completed her training either (which is why she's wearing the same robes as Arya). Perhaps this is a test for her and Arya.

The Waif isn't all that wrong in her assessment of Arya so I wouldn't mark it up to cattiness. She reminds me of Allister Thorne more than some Faceless Queen Bee.

Well, the comparison to Thorne is fair, but - in the show at least - he was way more rational.

4 hours ago, BlueNightzx said:

Littlefinger has a very interesting line, that i believe not only says a lot about cersei, but about other characters as well, as Dany, sansa, the late joffrey and so on.

Every man's a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players. Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it

I thought about the same line (marking the fact that beauty is a streght indeed and so is the right birth), and the point about not knowing what to do with power is very good. The same rings in Daario's show line about Dany being a conqueror, as opposed to people like Tyrion, born to rule.

[protar]

12 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

It's alright. It was my last reply. 

Why can't D&D learn from the books? Then again, Catelyn and Lysa were rivals. So were Arya and Sansa. Cersei and Marge. Lady Mormont and Asha. Dany and the Green Grace. Catelyn and Brienne was positive but then it turned sour after Lady Stoneheart appeared. Arianne manipulates Myrcella and almost gets her killed. 

Actually, I'm finding it hard to think of positive relationships between women in the series. Please remind me?

Well in the books the sandsnakes and Arianne love one another. They're a family. In the show they seem to hate each other. In the books Sansa picks up some seemingly genuine gal pals in Mya Stone and Randa Royce. In the show...well we got S5 Winterfell. In the books Arya actually gets on with the Waif pretty well. In the show she outright wants to murder Arya.  etc etc Yes the books are primarily drama. So a lot of the big relationships in the series are rivalries. But it takes the time to show positive interactions. Honestly this is a problem with the show in general. not just in their female interactions. The books seed little moments of hope and camaraderie throughout, the show has far less of that. It just focuses on bleakness. But when it comes to the female characters specifically it results in a very sexist looking pattern, of which the Waif is by far the worst example. She has no reason to hate Arya so much. Doubt her commitment to the Faceless Men yes; but want to kill her? There's no reason for it.

At this point in the series there aren't many positive relationships between men. Most are out of necessity, not friendship. 

Arya broke the rules. The Waif's desires have nothing to do with it. Why do you think he sent her to watch Arya? What do you think happens to FM that fail... they just let them go?  

Yeah Arya broke the rules. I'm not denying that. I think you've misunderstood my complaint. My complaint is that the Waif was apparently promised that she would be the one to get to kill Arya if she defected. The FM are supposed to be impartial. Even if you headcanon that the Waif also hasn't completed her training (which doesn't make much sense - why is a novice being put in charge of training another novice?) and therefore is still biased and impartial, Jaqen shouldn't be indulging her wishes. Going off of the established rules of the FM, the moment he saw how biased the Waif was he should have forbidden her to go after Arya, and at the very least lectured the Waif about the FM code.