Strong powerful women

[thehandwipes]

39 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

You just proved my point. You just described Jeyne in terms of what she's not. Like, you can't say she's "just some girl" and then that she has depth. She has no depth, just a couple of character traits. She's a watered down Sansa. Quick, what can you say about Jeyne's character and personality? Eh, I guess she had a crush on Beric and called Arya "horseface". The end. 

And once again, just because she's a supporting character it doesn't mean she has to be a flat character. Supporting =/= flat. 

There are tons of supporting characters more fleshed out than Jeyne: Stannis, Sandor, Tywin, Oberyn, Doran, freaking Obara, etc. Why shouldn't Jeyne be on this list? She's incredibly important in her role as "fake Arya", the glue holding the North together under Bolton rule. Why couldn't Martin explore her identity issues in more detail, how she felt having to pretend to be the person she used to mock and distance herself from? I don't know why people are sooooo okay with her remaining a cipher when they have crucified D&D for less. 

The first time we see Jeyne in AGOT she is a child and we see her through Sansa's POV's exclusively, and Sansa is far more focused of herself than anyone else.  We don't really see her agin until ADWD through Reek's POV's, and his train of thought is a touch disjointed and is more focused on what Ramsay will think of her than his perceptions of her as a person.  Just because our POV's don't see anything particularly interesting in Jeyne doesn't mean it isn't there. 

Stannis, Sandor, Tywin, and Oberyn all had far more time to be fleshed out and I would disagree that there is anything particularly compelling about Tywin as a human being.  And as far Obara is concerned, if by fleshed out you mean, "given a weapon " than sure.  But I am faaaaaaaaaaar more invested in Jeyne as a character than Obara.  And Jeyne seems to be headed to the Wall so we should get some more reliable POV's on her and a better glimpse of who she is as a person.

I can say she was a compassionate child.  She took Hugh's death very hard and I think she spent a lot of time whining and fretting over everyone when she was locked up with Sansa.  If I remember correctly.

[HairGrowsBack]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

You're right, silly me for wishing the writer had put a bit more effort in fleshing out a character who was a victim of sexual abuse and who, even though she's a secondary character, is actually rather important in that particular storyline, to the point that a big chunk of the plot actually hinges on her being raped. 

Of course there's nothing sexist about a female character suffering from violence, sexual or otherwise, for the development of a male character. It's not like that's a prevalent enough problem in current fiction that people have written about it. 

It's not like there's a difference between secondary characters and flat characters. 

Please, by all means, continue to gloss over Jeyne's "statement" and elaborate on Theon's "endless torture and psychological abuse." 

 

Oh, nothing I enjoy more than a man teaching women what they should find sexist or not. 

1)The storyline doesn't hinge on her being raped, it hinges on her pretending to be Arya, and being forcibly married to Ramsay in the context of Northern power struggles. Yes, it's very shocking and awful, but unlike the show, the writer didn't bend over backwards to get her there ; her being there makes sense, and has an actual impact on several storylines simultanously.

2) In this case no because the reverse is just as true. You have secondary female characters propping up male characters, and secondary male characters propping up female characters. If I wasn't clear enough the first time...

2) How would you have developped her more ? Make her a POV : "Martin is so gross what is this rape porn" is what you would have said. She's locked in most of the time so she doesn't risk "blowing her cover", and Theon is the only POV there.  What more do you want ? As others pointed out, she is just an ordinary girl put in a very dire situation, chances are all she's going to be able to do is be afraid. I doubt any "bubbling personality" she might have would shine under those circumstances.

3) By all means, continue to pretend I'm pitting the characters against each other when you're the one running the Pain Olympics. Jeyne has suffered horribly ; so did Theon.Each has saved the other, in a way. GRRM kind of drew a parallel between these two. 

 

EDIT : and GRRM evidently wants us to feel sorry for her. You don't need to write a dozen of pages about how much she suffers, because the author expects the reader to have enough empathy to sympathize with her right away.

[TepidHands]

38 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

No, it's "keep your eyes on what Theon is noticing around him, at all the threads of the story" (it is his point of view, and I think you're losing sight of that).   The story is more than the wedding night rape - that's the mistake the show made.  (Btw, ignoring Jeyne's pain is the whole point that the article I quoted above made.)

But Threek never ignores her pain. The chapters we read are Reek and Theon chapters, and Jeyne and what's befalling her are always in his thoughts. He even has this conversation with Lady Dustin in the crypts about her (and Lady Dustin knows EXACTLY what Jeyne is, and it ain't Arya, because Roose allowed her to take custody of (f)Arya until the wedding after taking delivery of the girl). Roose trusts Barbrey. It may be one more thing that leads to his undoing (in the books; his rabbit of a bride did it in show, plus plot machinations).

Quote

"Dressing her in grey and white serves no good if the girl is left to sob. The Freys may not care, but the northmen ... they fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks."

"Not you," said Theon. "Not me," the Lady of Barrowton confessed, "but the rest, yes. Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl."

No, he thought. She is not of Lord Eddard' s blood, her name is Jeyne, she is only a steward' s daughter. He did not doubt that Lady Dustin suspected, but even so ...

"Lady Arya's sobs do us more harm than all of Lord Stannis's swords and spears. If the Bastard means to remain Lord of Winterfell, he had best teach his wife to laugh."

Ah, those were awesome chapters in Winterfell. Too bad it became the Ramsay Show.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

36 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

ASOIAF and GOT are my favorite book/television series, but neither of them are above criticism. 

I am not saying that they aren't. Every piece of art should be criticised, either positively or negatively. What I'm saying is that somehow, ASOIAF [and many other fantasy works] aren't respected as such because they are fantasy. Like they are by itself inferior art. It happens double with ASOIAF because it's not some epic high fantasy such as Lord of the Rings where the characters don't shit.

[Good Guy Garlan]

36 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Oh, nothing I enjoy more than a man teaching women what they should find sexist or not. 

1)The storyline doesn't hinge on her being raped, it hinges on her pretending to be Arya, and being forcibly married to Ramsay in the context of Northern power struggles. Yes, it's very shocking and awful, but unlike the show, the writer didn't bend over backwards to get her there ; her being there makes sense, and has an actual impact on several storylines simultanously.

2) In this case no because the reverse is just as true. You have secondary female characters propping up male characters, and secondary male characters propping up female characters. If I wasn't clear enough the first time...

2) How would you have developped her more ? Make her a POV : "Martin is so gross what is this rape porn" is what you would have said. She's locked in most of the time so she doesn't risk "blowing her cover", and Theon is the only POV there.  What more do you want ? As others pointed out, she is just an ordinary girl put in a very dire situation, chances are all she's going to be able to do is be afraid. I doubt any "bubbling personality" she might have would shine under those circumstances.

3) By all means, continue to pretend I'm pitting the characters against each other when you're the one running the Pain Olympics. Jeyne has suffered horribly ; so did Theon.Each has saved the other, in a way. GRRM kind of drew a parallel between these two. 

 

EDIT : and GRRM evidently wants us to feel sorry for her. You don't need to write a dozen of pages about how much she suffers, because the author expects the reader to have enough empathy to sympathize with her right away.

I said I was out but this post was so wonderfully offensive that I had to come back.

First off (and oh the irony), if I think something is sexist you bet I'm gonna say so, and I couldn't care less about teaching you anything. 

Second, my whole argument was more or less a reaction to the double standards of the show purists and how the same things they so fervently criticize in the show are often present in the books as well. In this case, it's laughable that the purists hold Martin's treatment of Jeyne as this flawless thing while they pick apart the show. 

Yeah, Martin didn't bend over backwards to have Jeyne raped, he just decided to do it in explicit and unnecessary detail, to the point of including implicit bestiality. But it's cool we at least agree that it is shocking and awful. 

What more do I want? A character instead of a plot device. Is that too much to ask? Like I said, Martin chose to have Jeyne stuck in a tower, out of view. He just as easily could've wrote it differently, to at least show us more of Jeyne's interactions. Why is this treated like I'm asking for the exact recipe of the philosopher's stone? It's just fleshing out a character a bit more, for crying out loud. 

It's just hilarious how Martin is completely impervious to criticism. Like, 

Me: "X character is one-dimensional and could've been fleshed out more"

Purists: "That was the point, duh. That character was supposed to be like that."

Me: "X part in the books is an unnecessary and horrible display of sexual violence"

Purists: "Ugh, you're so ignorant. It's deliberately awful to showcase Ramsay's evilness/cultural differences/the role of women in Westeros/themes or whatever"

Purists on the show: "Oh my god, that character is so one-dimensional! And there's so much sexual violence!"

Now I'm out. 

 

[mormont]

[mod] Guys, this is the show thread. Comparisons to the books are one thing, discussion purely about the merits of the books are another, and are way off-topic. I've had to delete almost a page worth of posts that are nothing to do with the show at all. Let's cut that out, please. [/mod]

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I said I was out but this post was so wonderfully offensive that I had to come back.

First off (and oh the irony), if I think something is sexist you bet I'm gonna say so, and I couldn't care less about teaching you anything. 

Second, my whole argument was more or less a reaction to the double standards of the show purists and how the same things they so fervently criticize in the show are often present in the books as well. In this case, it's laughable that the purists hold Martin's treatment of Jeyne as this flawless thing while they pick apart the show. 

Yeah, Martin didn't bend over backwards to have Jeyne raped, he just decided to do it in explicit and unnecessary detail, to the point of including implicit bestiality. But it's cool we at least agree that it is shocking and awful. 

What more do I want? A character instead of a plot device. Is that too much to ask? Like I said, Martin chose to have Jeyne stuck in a tower, out of view. He just as easily could've wrote it differently, to at least show us more of Jeyne's interactions. Why is this treated like I'm asking for the exact recipe of the philosopher's stone? It's just fleshing out a character a bit more, for crying out loud. 

It's just hilarious how Martin is completely impervious to criticism. Like, 

Me: "X character is one-dimensional and could've been fleshed out more"

Purists: "That was the point, duh. That character was supposed to be like that."

Me: "X part in the books is an unnecessary and horrible display of sexual violence"

Purists: "Ugh, you're so ignorant. It's deliberately awful to showcase Ramsay's evilness/cultural differences/the role of women in Westeros/themes or whatever"

Purists on the show: "Oh my god, that character is so one-dimensional! And there's so much sexual violence!"

Now I'm out. 

 

Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllike!

[Tianzi]

6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllike!

That's because you only read the word 'purists' and didn't notice his 'feminist lens'

So, can we talk about how cheesy was to give Sansa a female 'rival' in Winterhell and have Sansa strongwoman up by standing up to her, and how wrong was Myranda's portrayal when she also was Ramsay's glorified sex-slave?

[Zara Zokan]

Gotta love this positive representation of women this season.

The Bland Snakes murdering the "weak" male rulers and being crazed and revenge obsessed.
Dany getting threatened with rape (not like she could have had Drogon at her side last season or anything) and using a brazier to get all of the Dothraki to follow her; not like they should actually despise her for killing all of their rulers or anything.
Margaery still being imprisoned for perjury.
Cersei/Carol being completely sympathetic and acknowledging her flaws.
Sansa's trauma of illogically being taken from her own plot and put into Jeyne's storyline and being raped magically disappearing when she gets to the Wall.
Mel being revealed to be hundreds of years old at the end of 6x01 which didn't have any bearing on the plot except having a lingering shot of an elderly woman's body to be "shocking"
Olenna making the patriarchy magically disappear at will.
Missandei, a genius who speaks 19 languages, being patronised by Tyrion and being implied to have been raped / a sex slave randomly so that Tyrion could make a joke.
A disabled Arya passively getting hit by a stick a lot by the Waif instead of actively trying to adapt to her surroundings as a blind person, and having the Waif be catty to her.
Yara shouting at her vastly abused and traumatised brother and using the c-word which she hung a lampshade on in canon.
Brienne continuing to lack any of her insecurities from the books which were thematically important to her character, killing people helped by her newly trained squire and popping out at Mel and Davos from behind a trashcan at Castle Black.
Septa Spoonella reading the Seven Pointed Star. (okay, but she's awesome, so one point to D&D for Septa Spoonella)

Women. On. Top.

[Primalsplit]

Westerosi Women Stronk!

[thehandwipes]

Excellent article, Ser Quark.  https://ladygeekgirl.wordpress.com/2015/11/10/what-we-can-learn-from-jeyne-poole-theon-greyjoy-and-ramsay-bolton-part-2/

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't know about you, maybe your standards are different than mine, but Jeyne's explicit (and implicit) abuse is as needlessly graphic as it gets. 

Yes, your standards seem to be very different from mine.  And since this is the 577th time we've had this conversation I'm just quote myself from the 576th time.

Quote

Finally, I have no problem believing that there are people who find GRRM's use of rape inappropriate or offensive.  But they always serve a purpose in the narrative, and we're never allowed to forget the impact on the victim.  Five books later, we're still not allowed to forget the brutal experience Lolly's was put through.  And if Jeyne died in the first chapter of TWOW, we would still never be allowed to forget what happened to her as long as we have access to Theon's POV.  This doesn't make GRRM "Shakespeare," but using rape as fluff and filler does make D&D hacks.

Quote

GRRM's writing is certainly not above criticism.  People will have to decide for themselves where the line is and how often an author can cross it.

But of course my point has always been that GRRM, while frequently delving into sexuality, does not fetishize sexual violence.  His novels deal with rape (even if you might feel he crosses the line), the show exploits it. 

The ability to address issues of sexual violence coherently within the narrative without exploiting them does not mean that GRRM is history's greatest writer.  He's a professional working writer and dealing with mature topics in a mature way is something he ought to be able to do.

The fact that D&D exploit sexual violence as fluff and filler makes them hacks.

You seem to have a line in the sand where a female rape victim can never be a secondary character in a male protagonists development.  I disagree with this.  In fact one of my "favorite" scenes in my "favorite" I-can't-stand-watching-this-anymore movie is the sniper scene from Full Metal Jacket.  While she is not a rape victim in the movie, the scene has a very deliberate rapey vibe to it.  She has about a minute a screen time and no lines other than praying in Vietnamese and "Shoot me" over and over.  Yet the scene is one of the most emotionally impactful things ever put on film and could not exist if Stanley Kubrick had your line in the sand.

[Richard Writhen]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 9:13 AM, Mister Stoneheart said:

I've said it before--the land of Weisseroff mirrors a lot of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons B movie conventions.  The women are empowered by kicking ass, stabbing and killing their own, boobs of resurrection, dragons and dragons and tits, the less clothing you wear the more bad ass you are.

This is not the world of A Song of Ice and Fire.  So, OP, you are correct in saying that women are empowered in the show--in Weisseroff they are very video game powerful.

This is true to an extent. There is far more nuance in the books and less "OHH EMM EFF GEE GURL POWR ROX!"

[Pies are coming]

5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Sidestepping from Jeyne Poole and going back to the show, I stumbled onto this:
 http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/124496344519/on-myranda

They sort of have a point, and I always cringed for the psycho husband wasn't enough and Sansa was put against some catty, jealous ex-girlfriend.

That post fails at the beginning, when it claims this:

Quote

The climax of Sansa’s “plot” this season is when she gets her “revenge” (well, Theek does it for her, what whatever) not on Ramsay, the person who abused her, but on… Myranda. So what, Myranda is responsible for her abuse? She the one who, narratively, has to “pay” for it?

 

Well, no. Myranda was on the way, that's it. It's not revenge, it's not getting at Ramsay, it's taking over an obstacle.

[Wall Flower]

To me the biggest failure of the Season 5 arc in Winterfell was that the focus was too much on Ramsay, the villain protagonist, rather than on Sansa and Theon, the victims. I don't think that's true of the books.

I do understand the criticism of Jeyne's story in the books but when I indulge in one of my favourite book ships (Littlefinger and the moon door) the very first thing I think of is those whip marks on Jeyne Poole's back. She may not be a fully fleshed out character but she's not one whose story means nothing to me. Martin did succeed in making me care about her and all the girls like her in Westeros.

[Darkstream]

On 5/21/2016 at 4:49 AM, Wilnova said:

Usual viewpoints espoused by a certain section of this forum, which a large majority of other viewers seem to disagree with.

I'm not sure I understand the point your trying to make with this statement. Majority doesn't necessarily equate to right or factual. I find that among the majority, their is a large percentage that base their views, intentionally or not, on ignorance and/or emotional bias, as well as a large portion that just doesn't care to acknowledge certain realities. And let's just remember that posters such as Jack Bauer 24 would be included in this majority, a point I would be hesitant to draw attention to in support of my argument.

Quote

While I, personally,  find some of the Tyrion scenes to be rather boring, in visiting other forums, I find that the TV audience seem to really enjoy them. The IGN review called the Tyrion-Missandei-Grey Worm small talk a fun, needed break in the episode. It's going to be hard for them to make Peter Dinklage sit out an episode and Tyrion is an important character. So, as much as you would like to see more time spend of Sansa and how the rape affected her, I can understand the necessity of the Tyrion scenes.

I'm sorry, I fail to see the necessity of including scenes like: 

 - Tyrion, the newly appointed leader of Mereen (don't even get me started on the insane absurdity of that), casually strolling around this supposedly volatile city in the midst of political unrest, making  witty conversation and crude dick jokes.

-Tyrion sitting around for what felt like an eternity, having a pointless conversation trying to initiate a silly drinking game with two recently emancipated slaves. This inevitably went nowhere, and evolved into him having a mind numbing, dull conversation with himself, literally about nothing. I mean, nothing is just nothing, I guess. 

-A scene with Tyrion, the Father of Dragons, having a conversation with Missandei establishing that she is one of the few people to have any rapport with the dragon's, aside from Danny, just to leave her behind while he has his dragon whisperer moment with Rhaegal and Viserion, resulting in them submitting to him ( instead of torching and eating him ), and thus allowing Tyrion the chance to free them. This entirely preposterous scene, just so it could be completely forgotten about the very next episode. Where the hell are these fire breathing, man eating dragons that were just set loose in the city? That's right, probably just taking a nap at the foot of Tyrions bed, waiting for the next time D&D's non-sensical plot demands that they show up.

-Tyrion having, if not meaningless, then certainly implausible negotiations with the masters of Yunkai and Astapor, demanding the abolishment of slavery, while having absolutely no leverage at all. This, just so he could give them a parting gift of some whores. That's right, he gave the slave masters a bunch of slaves as a sign of good faith in his negotiations to abolish slavery. 

...

To argue that any of these scenes should hold priority over a scene dealing with the character development of a main protagonist that is dealing with the emotional affects that come from being abused and raped, as well as focusing on another main protagonist, dealing with the effects of being dead and then resurrected, is in my opinion, comical at the very least. Sure, they did give Jon and Sansa some on screen time, but of course these tragic events they had just experienced were completely forgotten to make way for some friendly banter about her treating him bad as a child, (something that never happens with siblings in their youth), and something about Old Nans soup. 

 

Quote

As for Dorne, it's very clear that they understood the story did not work last season. We hardly spend any time on them this season. Just a quick scene to tie up some loose ends.

The fact that it took the severe back lash that was received in response to Dorne for D&D to realize how bad it was is a testament to D&D's inexorable attitude towards any input or criticism. I find it hard to believe that anyone involved with the production of the Dorne plot wouldn't be vehemently opposed to everything about it, but for fear of retaliation from the D's. Like seriously, how did this garbage make it to my television screen? Them finally conceding to this is no excuse for the copious amount of screen time wasted in the first place. 

Quote

 

Coming to Ramsay. I have never understood this complaint, but it keeps popping up on here. Ramsay is this season's main antagonist. There has to be some build up here. Apart from that, his scenes are more than just to show that he is evil. Lets look at his season 6 scenes.

Scene in episode 1: Touch base with the Boltons and tell us that since Sansa has escaped, they are in trouble.

Scene in episode 2: Gets rid of Roose and Walda and sets up Ramsay as Lord of Winterfell

Scene in episode 3: Makes deal with Umbers and gets Rickon. Gets rid of Shaggydog.

Scene in episode 4: Gets rid of Osha.

Great story telling, D&D's entire plot is driven by, getting rid of characters.

How are any of these scenes superfluous? They are important to the narrative of the story they are telling.

Because the whole premise of focusing the entire Northern plot around Ramsey is superfluous in the first place. They took a relatively minor character from the books and turned him into the main antagonist of the entire story, giving his character considerably more screen time than they should have. This, all in the name of sensationalism, and to the detriment of the actual protagonists, as well as the plot. 

...

I apologize for veering off topic, but would like to tie this back to the OP by concluding that Benoif and Weiss have no interest in telling a quality story with consistent, developed, or plausible characters at all. This of course includes the women. How can you have a strong, empowered woman in a show that only cares about showing sensationalist cardboard characters plucked strait from a comic book. It appalls me that D&D have been afforded this large of a platform to influence so many people with their views of what a strong empowered woman is. 

Well, off to catch up on the thread and count how many times @Jack Bauer 24 can say "why can't you understand this" and "Hugo award winning"

[Stannis is the man....nis]

33 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Because the whole premise of focusing the entire Northern plot around Ramsey is superfluous in the first place. They took a relatively minor character from the books and turned him into the main antagonist of the entire story, giving his character considerably more screen time than they should have. This, all in the name of sensationalism, and to the detriment of the actual protagonists, as well as the plot. 

^^^^^^^THIS THIS THIS^^^^^^

[Tolsimir]

18 hours ago, mormont said:

[mod] Guys, this is the show thread. Comparisons to the books are one thing, discussion purely about the merits of the books are another, and are way off-topic. I've had to delete almost a page worth of posts that are nothing to do with the show at all. Let's cut that out, please. [/mod]

Honestly, might aswell ban Jack Bauer then. The only thing he seems to be doing is posting ''hehe show did x so much better than books and books will never be finished'' in the show forums.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

19 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

Honestly, might aswell ban Jack Bauer then. The only thing he seems to be doing is posting ''hehe show did x so much better than books and books will never be finished'' in the show forums.

Whats the difference between that and 'hehe books did x so much better'.might as well ban everyone.

[YOVMO]

On May 16, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Kudos to Beinoff and Weiss on the strong powerful women theme this season. Awesome stuff. From Sansa, Brienne, Ellaria, Sand Snakes, Olenna, Cersei, Margaery, etc this is a great message that they are sending.

I have to say that this seems exactly wrong to me. Aside from the sand snakes having gone full retard (I got an idea, lets avenge Obyrn by killing a child under dornish protection because that is what he was all about oh and while we are at it lets end the Martell line and simultaneously set the stage for an internal dornish power struggle and a war with the crown) the absolutely asinine social justice bs that is being forced down the throat of the show watcher in full on westerosi affirmative action and guuuuurrrrrlll pwwwwrrrr is being done at the expense of the soul of the very story.

 

I wish d&d would keep their personal politics away from this show. It is bad enough to endure with the mostly terrible writing but now we need a hamfisted warrior princess trope because that happens to be in fashion now? gtfo. At what point do they just bring in Chuck Lorre and make the whole damn show a sitcom?

Some women in asoiaf are strong and some are weak, amongst the strong there are different types of strong...Brienne and Catelyn for instance. Amongst the weak there are different types of weak like lollys and Marcella. Some characters are weak and strong at the same time but in different ways, Sansa for instance and, for that matter, Cersei. What d&d seem to have done was say "fuck complexity, lets just push some asinine social message"

The show has pretty much left no room for any women to be weak .... ever. The whole thing has become some annoying that it almost makes a person root for Ramsey. If he wasn't such a one dimensional cartoon of a shirtless blood covered torturing lunatic I think I would at this point. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Why did the show only have Myrcella flitting around in her prom dress and playing kissy face with Trystane instead of showing Myrcella repeatedly besting Trys at Cyvasse? I mean, she was on screen for such little time that the show could have at least given her something other than runway looks and teengirl sass.

This would also have shown the critical loss the Lannisters took by having a savvy-smart person family member killed and shown that losing Trystane was not "that big of a deal" because he wasn't good at strategy.