Strong powerful women

[TepidHands]

13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Well, not that you have an actuall critisism, surprise, surprise. But I would say that It was an effective means of showing Tyrions dissent into dispair and his obsession with Tysha. 

And shores, shores go along the coastline of a body of water. 

It's also a callback to some of his his father's last words: "Wherever whores go."

(We all know they go through the Hodor.   )

[JonCon's Red Beard]

46 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Or how about Diarrhea Dany in the books? Not very empowered .

Erm... Dany went through a miscarriage and got sick bc she had nothing to eat or drink for days. She's still standing

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I see a lot of hate for the repetitive lines of Feast and Dance.

"Wherever whores go"

"If I look back I'm lost"

"Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy for all I know".

I wonder if the author is trying to make a...

 

...point! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Jack Bauer 24]

14 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I see a lot of hate for the repetitive lines of Feast and Dance.

"Wherever whores go"

"If I look back I'm lost"

"Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy for all I know".

I wonder if the author is trying to make a...

 

...point! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Ruhail]

9 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

The treatment of show Catelyn was quite strange. I think the only change they made that I liked was her releasing Jaime in order to protect him from Karstark. (But that's a change that had to made because the budget prevented them from putting Jaime in a castle cell, like the books, where it was easier to defend him. And of course Karstark's sons had been killed in the Whispering Woods, not five minutes ago during Jaime's cousin-murdering escape. And Karstark had held his peace, only killing Lannister hostages in reaction to Catelyn's actions.) Initially, it seemed like they were trying to make her more likable by toning down her dislike of Jon, but they ended up taking a lot away from her character. She's a loving mother in the books, but she's politically savvy and wants to protect the rights of her children. Sansa could be queen, dangit! Bastards and sons of bastards plague the true born kids for generations, just look at those Blackfyres, Robb!  Lady Stoneheart is the beyond-the-grave vengeance of a women who thought she'd lost everything (ironically, the only murdered child was the one she saw killed before her eyes). 

Adding Talisa into the mix also took a lot away from her season 3 scenes. While it was nice to see more of Robb (and Richard Madden, who played him well), it came at the expense of Cat. A better adaption would have found a balance, because Cat is an important character. 

As for the portrayal of sex workers, in the world of Westeros and Essos, a lot of women would be forced by circumstance and slavery to be prostitutes. They'd have to answer to pimps and masters or else work hard on their own to get every bit of coin they could. Braavos seems to be the only place where sex workers have any kind of power on their own (including maybe becoming a sex worker because they actually want to), and yet the show has narrowed Arya's storyline to getting hit with a stick. Chataya's place is also eliminated, where a woman is running the show and seems to treat her workers better than Littlefinger (she at least was plenty pissed at Our Good Friend Allar Deem). The "Pod the Sex God" plot nugget was a waste of valuable time that I honestly did not find funny at all. 

A big waste of Michelle Fairley who was amazing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

After reading the whole thread (kidding, mostly of it), I think I know what's the problem here.
And, this is not just HBO and GoT's problem.

What's a "strong powerful woman"? See, a lot of media tries to enforce this definition like women should suppose to follow a set of specific rules to be STRONG.

This is IDIOTIC. There is no "right" kind of women that are strong. I find this, personally, more damaging than a weak female character. The "right" kind of women is the one who is rightly portrayed in the story that is been developed. Simply.

A "princess in a tower" can't be a "strong character"? Why not? Why couldn't this type of character be somehow inspiring for women who are, not so metaphorically speaking, in a similar situation (trapped in a bad job, in a bad marriage, etc). A woman doesn't need to hold a weapon or be a rebellious tomboy to be considered strong. Or at least, shouldn't be.

That's why characters such as Jeyne Poole or Jeyne Westerling were ignored. For D&d, the fact they CANNOT get out of their situation is telling of their lack of power. But, aren't they supposed to represent two sides of how women are victims of war too? How isn't this inspiring?

This happened to Ellaria. Ellaria was a widow with four kids. She knows that his lover died for a cause she didn't believe, yet, she is now a victim of it. She is also seeing how no one listens to her as in they will keep trying to get revenge and more people will die. What wasn't strong about her? Do they know what is to be a widow with kids against the world? Obviously, not.

This also happened to Sansa. Specially Sansa. The fact she was enduring and resisting an abusive situation wasn't enough. She will probably have to be involved in a war, fighting with weapons and leading armies to have POWAH. Like, do they even know how hard is the fight for women who have been in abusive relationships to power-through it and move on with their lives? Again, obviously, they don't.

Seriously, this whole "strong women" thing is a cliché created by media to have something to bitch about when a new show is on. "Oh, look... this female character made a sexist comment, she's so flawed and wrong, please, click my link and bitch with me... bitch away, women! we're fighting the system one post at the time!".

D&d are only following the same pattern by making their female characters the most cliché possible. We, who have read the books can't tell the layers on the ladies and how bad HBO has failed, but for the average reader, they see Brienne holding weapons and Sansa saying she's going to kill Ramsay and they feel very satisfied with how they are making this season "empowering".

 

[LadySoftheart]

12 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

After reading the whole thread (kidding, mostly of it), I think I know what's the problem here.
And, this is not just HBO and GoT's problem.

What's a "strong powerful woman"? See, a lot of media tries to enforce this definition like women should suppose to follow a set of specific rules to be STRONG.

<snip>

 

I would add to this great post only that apparently being strong and "badass" also includes losing your compassion, kindness, and empathy. These are traits coded as "feminine" so obviously they can't be part of a Strong Woman (TM) personality - so Brienne is a sword-swinging brute who has lost her gentleness and kindness and her love of songs; Sansa is only strong when she is leading an army to liberate Winterfell, not when she is withstanding abuse in KL and continuing to be compassionate despite the abuse she endures; Arya is abused by the Waif (rather than being friends with her)... It's a long list! And when Doran doesn't go to war immediately to avenge his brother who was NOT murdered (he volunteered to fight for Tyrion!), then the fact that he card about not needlessly throwing away the lives of his people (thus far the only Prince who gives a crap about the lives of his people - even if there are only 20 total in all of Dorne) he is brutally murdered for being "weak."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, LadySoftheart said:

I would add to this great post only that apparently being strong and "badass" also includes losing your compassion, kindness, and empathy. These are traits coded as "feminine" so obviously they can't be part of a Strong Woman (TM) personality - so Brienne is a sword-swinging brute who has lost her gentleness and kindness and her love of songs; Sansa is only strong when she is leading an army to liberate Winterfell, not when she is withstanding abuse in KL and continuing to be compassionate despite the abuse she endures; Arya is abused by the Waif (rather than being friends with her)... It's a long list! And when Doran doesn't go to war immediately to avenge his brother who was NOT murdered (he volunteered to fight for Tyrion!), then the fact that he card about not needlessly throwing away the lives of his people (thus far the only Prince who gives a crap about the lives of his people - even if there are only 20 total in all of Dorne) he is brutally murdered for being "weak."

Indeed. It's very obvious to find it in this show because I watch it and we know the differences between the books, but I'm sure I'd find this happening in A LOT of female characters that are supposed to be "strong" in other media. They're an in a constant state of "omg, someone's after me, I can't trust people, die die die!".

[Nevets]

16 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

That's why characters such as Jeyne Poole or Jeyne Westerling were ignored. For D&d, the fact they CANNOT get out of their situation is telling of their lack of power. But, aren't they supposed to represent two sides of how women are victims of war too? How isn't this inspiring?

I really miss the two Jeynes in the show.  Jeyne Westerling, unlike Talisa, gave Robb a real reason for marrying (saving her honor).  Now she is in open defiance to her mother and has potential to be a serious threat to Lannister dominion over the Riverlands.

Considering her age and what she's been through, the fact that Jeyne Pole is alive, free, and able to hold a coherent conversation shows a considerable resiliency, if nothing else.  She has information of likely interest to Arya and Sansa, so I expect we will see quite a bit more of her as well.

21 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

This also happened to Sansa. Specially Sansa. The fact she was enduring and resisting an abusive situation wasn't enough. She will probably have to be involved in a war, fighting with weapons and leading armies to have POWAH. Like, do they even know how hard is the fight for women who have been in abusive relationships to power-through it and move on with their lives? Again, obviously, they don't

Sansa spent about a year completely isolated in a court run by two mentally unbalanced individuals with a penchant for cruelty who disliked her.  Getting through that shows a level of smarts, cunning, and resiliency that she hasn't been given credit for.   

Yep, strong female characters come in many flavors.  Being a badass is among the least interesting.  Brienne isn't interesting because she's badass, but because of how she deals with reconciling her femininity with being a badass.  D&D completely miss any nuance in the characters and go with the cheap thrills.

[Jack Bauer 24]

31 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I really miss the two Jeynes in the show.  Jeyne Westerling, unlike Talisa, gave Robb a real reason for marrying (saving her honor).  Now she is in open defiance to her mother and has potential to be a serious threat to Lannister dominion over the Riverlands.

Considering her age and what she's been through, the fact that Jeyne Pole is alive, free, and able to hold a coherent conversation shows a considerable resiliency, if nothing else.  She has information of likely interest to Arya and Sansa, so I expect we will see quite a bit more of her as well.

Sansa spent about a year completely isolated in a court run by two mentally unbalanced individuals with a penchant for cruelty who disliked her.  Getting through that shows a level of smarts, cunning, and resiliency that she hasn't been given credit for.   

Yep, strong female characters come in many flavors.  Being a badass is among the least interesting.  Brienne isn't interesting because she's badass, but because of how she deals with reconciling her femininity with being a badass.  D&D completely miss any nuance in the characters and go with the cheap thrills.

All of the character payoffs have been earned.

[thehandwipes]

25 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

All of the character payoffs have been earned.

Serious question: are all of your 5,447 posts nothing more than nonsensical trolling or are you just having a bad week?

[Jack Bauer 24]

18 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

Serious question: are all of your 5,447 posts nothing more than nonsensical trolling or are you just having a bad week?

Everything I say I believe. Don't be mad at me that this is one of the most popular shows in the world and that there are people who actually enjoy it.

[Pies are coming]

2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

After reading the whole thread (kidding, mostly of it), I think I know what's the problem here.
And, this is not just HBO and GoT's problem.

What's a "strong powerful woman"? See, a lot of media tries to enforce this definition like women should suppose to follow a set of specific rules to be STRONG.

This is IDIOTIC. There is no "right" kind of women that are strong. I find this, personally, more damaging than a weak female character. The "right" kind of women is the one who is rightly portrayed in the story that is been developed. Simply.

A "princess in a tower" can't be a "strong character"? Why not? Why couldn't this type of character be somehow inspiring for women who are, not so metaphorically speaking, in a similar situation (trapped in a bad job, in a bad marriage, etc). A woman doesn't need to hold a weapon or be a rebellious tomboy to be considered strong. Or at least, shouldn't be.

That's why characters such as Jeyne Poole or Jeyne Westerling were ignored. For D&d, the fact they CANNOT get out of their situation is telling of their lack of power. But, aren't they supposed to represent two sides of how women are victims of war too? How isn't this inspiring?

This happened to Ellaria. Ellaria was a widow with four kids. She knows that his lover died for a cause she didn't believe, yet, she is now a victim of it. She is also seeing how no one listens to her as in they will keep trying to get revenge and more people will die. What wasn't strong about her? Do they know what is to be a widow with kids against the world? Obviously, not.

This also happened to Sansa. Specially Sansa. The fact she was enduring and resisting an abusive situation wasn't enough. She will probably have to be involved in a war, fighting with weapons and leading armies to have POWAH. Like, do they even know how hard is the fight for women who have been in abusive relationships to power-through it and move on with their lives? Again, obviously, they don't.

Seriously, this whole "strong women" thing is a cliché created by media to have something to bitch about when a new show is on. "Oh, look... this female character made a sexist comment, she's so flawed and wrong, please, click my link and bitch with me... bitch away, women! we're fighting the system one post at the time!".

D&d are only following the same pattern by making their female characters the most cliché possible. We, who have read the books can't tell the layers on the ladies and how bad HBO has failed, but for the average reader, they see Brienne holding weapons and Sansa saying she's going to kill Ramsay and they feel very satisfied with how they are making this season "empowering".

 

So, would you say season 2 and season 5 Sansa, who was a princess locked in a tower, physically and later sexually abused by men not only physically stronger than her but with a full army to boot, was an inspiring, strong woman?

And now that she seeks to seize back her home and (probably) execute/bring to justice (that is, herself or Jon) the man who raped her, she's somewhat less of a strong character?

This is fiction and thus, needs drama. And without conflict, there is no drama. To get a conflict, you need opposing forces. So your woman in a bad job, has to do something about it if we are to have drama. Or she is internally fighting sadness or even depression - which is naturally hard to translate into the screen. But if she's just enduring, then there is no drama. What we have is a woman in a bad situation. Fiona couldn't drive the story in Shrek until Shrek rescues her because she's passively waiting for her Prince Charming. Unless she's fighting something, there is no drama.

Now, of course, what type of conflict determines what "fighting" means. In a romantic storyline "fighting" means seducing the love interest, or getting through the obstacles in the relationship. We had opposing forces, and therefore a conflict, with Jon and Ygritte, between Ygritte's attempts to seduce her and Jon's adherence to his vows. Sansa at Winterfell, before the wedding, wasn't a story about physical strength. It could have been a story about intrigue and plots (ie, Sansa trying to set Ramsay against Roose). Instead, Sansa coasts along until after the wedding night. We don't have a conflict in that storyline until Sansa asks Theon for help.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Everything I say I believe. Don't be mad at me that this is one of the most popular shows in the world and that there are people who actually enjoy it.

Seriously? 

You know, at first you did piss me off, I'll give you credit, good on ya. And it was kinda funny after that, at least you were persistent. And you are consistent. (well, not in your actual arguments, but in your overall goal on this forum) but I'm sorry to say, now it's just getting to be really, really sad. Like we get it allready, book's suck, show's awsome, I have not a single coherent thought as to why I feel that way, but I'll fight you to the death on it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

So, would you say season 2 and season 5 Sansa, who was a princess locked in a tower, physically and later sexually abused by men not only physically stronger than her but with a full army to boot, was an inspiring, strong woman?

 

You seemed to have missed this part:

"The "right" kind of women is the one who is rightly portrayed in the story that is been developed".

By rightly, I mean, a woman whose character is credible and consistent.

Take Jeyne Westerling. Despite the Lannister won and Robb is dead, she has defied them  by trying to keep her crown, which acknowledges him as King. Or take Jeyne Poole, who, despite all she has been through, she still has the strength to keep standing. These characters are inspiring because people in similar positions get INSPIRED by them. They find strength in THEIR strength, even if they fail.

Sansa was a character who was simply dragged all over whenever they needed someone to be portrayed under the light they wanted. They wanted to portray Tyrion good? Make Sansa like him. Wanted to portray Ramsay bad? Marry him to Sansa and get him abuse her. She's not a character, not even a plot device. She was a punching-bag for the sake of the storyline.

And, how did they fix it? By completely ignoring what happened to her (seriously, it has even been mentioned in words and not just implications? Cowards)., and put her in a storyline in which she will physically fight her abusers. Because obviously, all women who have suffered violence should take karate lessons. That's the one and only road to their empowering.

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

 Or take Jeyne Poole, who, despite all she has been through, she still has the strength to keep standing. These characters are inspiring because people in similar positions get INSPIRED by them. They find strength in THEIR strength, even if they fail

I don't understand? What's the difference between Jeyne Poole and Sansa being strong? Sansa is still standing despite all that she has been through. Jeyne Poole was a one dimensional character in the books, there to be tortured and raped, to show LF and Ramsay's casual brutality. She was only there to highlight Theon slowly finding himself. We never get to hear from the character herself in the books. We view her only through Theon's eyes. The show replacing her with Sansa actually gave a voice to that character.

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Sansa was a character who was simply dragged all over whenever they needed someone to be portrayed under the light they wanted. They wanted to portray Tyrion good? Make Sansa like him. Wanted to portray Ramsay bad? Marry him to Sansa and get him abuse her. She's not a character, not even a plot device. She was a punching-bag for the sake of the storyline.
 

But that's story telling 101. You use characters interacting with each other to tell more of the story and tell us more about the characters. They want to make Sansa more bad-ass? Have her ask a wimpy Jon Snow to man up and join the fight. They want to make Cersei more human and gray? Have Jaime continue to support her. Are Jon and Jaime punching bags for the sake of telling Sansa and Cersei's story? Remember in the books Jon does not need any encouragement to go fight Ramsay (I have my swords Bastard, and we are coming for you) and Jaime has already ditched Cersei for being one dimensionally evil.

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

And, how did they fix it? By completely ignoring what happened to her (seriously, it has even been mentioned in words and not just implications? Cowards)., and put her in a storyline in which she will physically fight her abusers. Because obviously, all women who have suffered violence should take karate lessons. That's the one and only road to their empowering.

How are they completely ignoring it? Sansa's pause when Brienne asked her what happened was very telling. Her anger against the Boltons is very palpable. You want three episodes of Sansa having therapy sessions or something? FFS, Jon came back from the dead and we don't even get a discussion about that between Jon and Sansa. As much as we would like them to deeply explore these issues, there just is not time enough to do so. We know that these characters have been deeply affected by these events. And that will have to do. As it is, characters like Sam have hardly been shown and everyone gets like 6-8 minutes so that we can visit all these storlylines.

And Sansa is going to physically fight? Is that a spoiler? Has Sansa been seen in the thick of the battle doing karate? Let's stop with the hyperbole shall we? Just as Jon is depressed and tired from what happened to him, Sansa seems to have become angry and defiant from her experiences. She wants her brother to fight. She is not proposing that she herself go out there in battle armor and do it.

 

 

[Crixus]

11 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Or how about Diarrhea Dany in the books? Not very empowered .

This is hilarious! Do 'empowered' people never take a shit? What exactly is your point here? I don't think you understood that chapter (that's if you read it; you seem to have all your book info from Wiki cliff notes, which, funnily enough, is the style of your posts: repetitive, dull, and littered with generic catch phrases like 'empowered', 'Martin used a few phrases too many times', 'agency' and of course, 'master class').

The chapter is about Dany finally embracing her dragon self, and realising she needs to go back to Westeros rather than keep trying to fix a place half a world away. There's a lot more of course, pesky stuff like context and subtext and themes:all the stuff D&D and you seem to loathe. I've given you the cliff notes version for your benefit. You're welcome.

To reduce all this to 'diarrhea Dany' is stunningly obtuse, and a reflection of the labeller's reading comprehension.

You do realise that these books that you spend so much time attempting to run down, are the entire premise of the show? Without Martin and his, according to you, terrible writing that desperately needs D&D's 'master class' (LOL, wtf that does that even mean?) there would be no GoT, and no D&D.

 

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Wilnova said:

As much as we would like them to deeply explore these issues, there just is not time enough to do so. We know that these characters have been deeply affected by these events. And that will have to do. As it is, characters like Sam have hardly been shown and everyone gets like 6-8 minutes so that we can visit all these storlylines.

I can no longer take this argument seriously, on account of, in my opinion, the intolerable character focus and the needless, uninspired and soporific scenes that D&D have inundated GOT with. 

[HairGrowsBack]

49 minutes ago, Crixus said:

This is hilarious! Do 'empowered' people never take a shit? What exactly is your point here? I don't think you understood that chapter (that's if you read it; you seem to have all your book info from Wiki cliff notes, which, funnily enough, is the style of your posts: repetitive, dull, and littered with generic catch phrases like 'empowered', 'Martin used a few phrases too many times', 'agency' and of course, 'master class').

The chapter is about Dany finally embracing her dragon self, and realising she needs to go back to Westeros rather than keep trying to fix a place half a world away. There's a lot more of course, pesky stuff like context and subtext and themes:all the stuff D&D and you seem to loathe. I've given you the cliff notes version for your benefit. You're welcome.

To reduce all this to 'diarrhea Dany' is stunningly obtuse, and a reflection of the labeller's reading comprehension.

You do realise that these books that you spend so much time attempting to run down, are the entire premise of the show? Without Martin and his, according to you, terrible writing that desperately needs D&D's 'master class' (LOL, wtf that does that even mean?) there would be no GoT, and no D&D.

 

The guy obviously never read the books and only regurgitates what dudebros say about the last two books. Don't bother discusiing the books with him

[Neds Secret]

13 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Ask your pal Channel4sjonsnow, he seems to be the expert on whores. 

Ha ha ha