Strong powerful women

[TepidHands]

And now we see the Mansplainer in its natural habitat of Internet forums.... 

[Darkstream]

35 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

And now we see the Mansplainer in its natural habitat of Internet forums.... 

Huh, I actually had to look up the meaning of that, funny enough though, there was a picture of C4's avatar. Go figure. 

[Orphalesion]

As disgusting as the scene with Tyrion handing out free sex slaves was, it made one important thing clear: If the show has decided it wants to paint one character as "good"/"badass" despite every evidence to the contrary it doesn't matter if they are male or female, it just matters that DnD think that the character(s) in question is/are "cool". If swear words, t&a or lame jokes/witticisms can used, it's an added bonus for them.

[Tianzi]

TV Shae was a shit sob story. Now, on more interesting matters...

10 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Yeah, getting back on topic - I thought it was interesting that they rewrote Cat right from the start to fit her more comfortably into the stereotypical wife and mother role. In the books she quite reasonably points out to Ned that he can't really refuse a king who has come all this way with the entire court to ask him to be Hand. In the show, she reverts to the familiar trope of the wife who doesn't want her husband to leave her and her attitude to Jon Snow is softened a bit as well. I kind of understand the rewrite (book Cat probably would have been more hated than poor Skyler White) but it's disappointing as well.

As David Selig pointed out, in later seasons there are scenes where Cat literally seems to have her lips sewn together and some of her book speeches are given to Robb. The biggest scene she gets is an out of character monologue about Jon Snow (presumably to redeem her for being less than motherly in that instance). It's only when we get to the Red Wedding that Cat gets some of her book character back and I really think the actress was excellent in those scenes.

The biggest problem I have with Shae is that they wrote an entirely different character and then had to shoehorn her into bookShae's plot. It just didn't work imo. 

I actually liked Cat's book 'flaws' and wombing her up (at least she didn't get additional forgotten child) and the infamous 'If I only loved Jon Snow' annoyed me, but to be fair, from the earlier seasons I remember more my impression than specific changes. I don't know what they exactly did to Cat, but somehow they lost her.

I also thinks her character was a collateral damage of the Talisa storyline, she was reduced to a bumbling mother in law who DOESN'T UNDERSTAND that her sonny is in lurv; and the fact that Robb performed this whole idiotic stunt right under her nose and she was powerless to get to him (in the books it happened far away and it was hinted he at least knew he did a risky thing and was anxious to face his mother) undermines her even more. Just a hen helplessly left behind when her chicks grow wings.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

TV Shae was a shit sob story. Now, on more interesting matters...

I actually liked Cat's book 'flaws' and wombing her up (at least she didn't get additional forgotten child) and the infamous 'If I only loved Jon Snow' annoyed me, but to be fair, from the earlier seasons I remember more my impression than specific changes. I don't know what they exactly did to Cat, but somehow they lost her.

I also thinks her character was a collateral damage of the Talisa storyline, she was reduced to a bumbling mother in law who DOESN'T UNDERSTAND that her sonny is in lurv; and the fact that Robb performed this whole idiotic stunt right under her nose and she was powerless to get to him (in the books it happened far away and it was hinted he at least knew he did a risky thing and was anxious to face his mother) undermines her even more. Just a hen helplessly left behind when her chicks grow wings.

Well, Cat went from advocating an end to the revenge cycle and pointless violence to strongly advocating revenge and "We'll kill them all!", which was, for me, as bad as saying she was the worst person EVAH because she couldn't love Jon Snow.

[Jack Bauer 24]

And I didn't even mention until 22 pages into the thread. Just goes to show how well the women have been written. She wasn't even part of EW's strong powerful women feature.

[Tianzi]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, Cat went from advocating an end to the revenge cycle and pointless violence to strongly advocating revenge and "We'll kill them all!", which was, for me, as bad as saying she was the worst person EVAH because she couldn't love Jon Snow.

Hah, I start seeing a pattern ;). Well, this was the standard 'toughening' the character, I have a bigger problem with wombing. Karsi has been already mentioned, but remember Ygritte who took part with slaughtering innocents in villages with completely cold blood? There is a scene when she sees a mother with a baby and BAM, she suddenly develops a conscience and spares them, it was the show yelling at us: 'look, she can woman after all, she is not a completely bad person!'

[Jack Bauer 24]

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Hah, I start seeing a pattern ;). Well, this was the standard 'toughening' the character, I have a bigger problem with wombing. Karsi has been already mentioned, but remember Ygritte who took part with slaughtering innocents in villages with completely cold blood? There is a scene when she sees a mother with a baby and BAM, she suddenly develops a conscience and spares them, it was the show yelling at us: 'look, she can woman after all, she is not a completely bad person!'

It's called character progression. Good stories have it.

[Neds Secret]

1 minute ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It's called character progression. Good stories have it.

I just wish Game of Thrones did!

[SuperMario]

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It's called character progression. Good stories have it.

You're right. Good stories do have it. Since GOT does not have character progression, I guess we're in agreement that GOT is not good. I knew we would find some common ground.

[Jack Bauer 24]

1 minute ago, SuperMario said:

You're right. Good stories do have it. Since GOT does not have character progression, I guess we're in agreement that GOT is not good. I knew we would find some common ground.

Whether you like it or not you'll still continue to make it revelant. Thanks

[Liver and Onions]

The treatment of show Catelyn was quite strange. I think the only change they made that I liked was her releasing Jaime in order to protect him from Karstark. (But that's a change that had to made because the budget prevented them from putting Jaime in a castle cell, like the books, where it was easier to defend him. And of course Karstark's sons had been killed in the Whispering Woods, not five minutes ago during Jaime's cousin-murdering escape. And Karstark had held his peace, only killing Lannister hostages in reaction to Catelyn's actions.) Initially, it seemed like they were trying to make her more likable by toning down her dislike of Jon, but they ended up taking a lot away from her character. She's a loving mother in the books, but she's politically savvy and wants to protect the rights of her children. Sansa could be queen, dangit! Bastards and sons of bastards plague the true born kids for generations, just look at those Blackfyres, Robb!  Lady Stoneheart is the beyond-the-grave vengeance of a women who thought she'd lost everything (ironically, the only murdered child was the one she saw killed before her eyes). 

Adding Talisa into the mix also took a lot away from her season 3 scenes. While it was nice to see more of Robb (and Richard Madden, who played him well), it came at the expense of Cat. A better adaption would have found a balance, because Cat is an important character. 

As for the portrayal of sex workers, in the world of Westeros and Essos, a lot of women would be forced by circumstance and slavery to be prostitutes. They'd have to answer to pimps and masters or else work hard on their own to get every bit of coin they could. Braavos seems to be the only place where sex workers have any kind of power on their own (including maybe becoming a sex worker because they actually want to), and yet the show has narrowed Arya's storyline to getting hit with a stick. Chataya's place is also eliminated, where a woman is running the show and seems to treat her workers better than Littlefinger (she at least was plenty pissed at Our Good Friend Allar Deem). The "Pod the Sex God" plot nugget was a waste of valuable time that I honestly did not find funny at all. 

[Meera of Tarth]

29 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It's called character progression. Good stories have it.

Something GOT lacks of

[Jack Bauer 24]

14 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Something GOT lacks of

It thrives in it.

[Meera of Tarth]

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It thrives in it.

I'm not saying there is no character progression but....

I suppose you are not referring to Jaime or Brienne, to put two examples of completely destroyed ones.

[SuperMario]

Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It thrives in it.

No. It passes off drastic 180 degree changes in character as character progression. Sansa being raped, which leads to "empowerment" does not equal character progression. Or at least not in a natural sense to the audience.

GOT treats character progression like a tornado treats remodeling homes. Technically, yes, your home has been changed through progression. But it occurred in such a drastic fashion that nothing is distinguishable about your house from before and nothing really makes sense about it. You're left basically scratching your head wondering, "What the hell happened?"

[Jack Bauer 24]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm not saying there is no character progression but....

I suppose you are not referring to Jaime or Brienne, to put two examples of completely destroyed ones.

I prefer both show versions. 

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

I prefer both show versions. 

And do you think their progression as characters is natural?

I mean do you like their show versions now or before? Or their versions before and also now?

[Mister Stoneheart]

22 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

It thrives in it.

It rolls around in it.  Then gets up and says 'look, story progression!'.

[Jack Bauer 24]

14 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And do you think their progression as characters is natural?

I mean do you like their show versions now or before? Or their versions before and also now?

Is book Brienne wandering around constantly asking the same question riveting progression?