Strong powerful women

[Mister Stoneheart]

For me, A Song of Ice and Fire (the books) is marvelous.  Books 4 and 5 were rougher to get through, but had some real gems of scenes.  Unfortunately, it also had a lot of bloat.

Game of Thrones on T.V. divorced of the books is amusing, sometimes infuriating (treatment of female characters), popcorn munching can't turn away, occasionally fun, campy, tits and dragons!, gorgeous sets, nice costumes, some stunningly beautiful actors, frothy soap opera scenarios set quasi-medieval with a bit of a dude-bro-tastic bent (another minus for me), show.  It's a C+ to pass the time kind of show.

It's just not the books.  At all.  And there lies a lot of concern.

I'm ok with it for what limited talent the showrunners can contribute to it--it's up there with Spartacus--cheesy writing, twists and turns, big deaths, oohs and ahs, tits and somewhat less male bums (sigh).  But it isn't the quality of the books by a long shot.

[Ruhail]

At least Asha didnt lose to a shirtless savage and flee from a couple of dogs.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Call me if ever comes the day whenthis topic is again about feminism.

Yeah, getting back on topic - I thought it was interesting that they rewrote Cat right from the start to fit her more comfortably into the stereotypical wife and mother role. In the books she quite reasonably points out to Ned that he can't really refuse a king who has come all this way with the entire court to ask him to be Hand. In the show, she reverts to the familiar trope of the wife who doesn't want her husband to leave her and her attitude to Jon Snow is softened a bit as well. I kind of understand the rewrite (book Cat probably would have been more hated than poor Skyler White) but it's disappointing as well.

As David Selig pointed out, in later seasons there are scenes where Cat literally seems to have her lips sewn together and some of her book speeches are given to Robb. The biggest scene she gets is an out of character monologue about Jon Snow (presumably to redeem her for being less than motherly in that instance). It's only when we get to the Red Wedding that Cat gets some of her book character back and I really think the actress was excellent in those scenes.

The biggest problem I have with Shae is that they wrote an entirely different character and then had to shoehorn her into bookShae's plot. It just didn't work imo. 

[Crixus]

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Book Shae makes sense.  It makes sense that a woman who was abused by her family and then forced into prostitution, who has been a camp follower, not even working out of a brothel, would be cold and "heartless" ...that's how she has survived.  That is why she became a not nice person.  That is realistic.  She wasn't drawn in huge detail, but she didn't need to be....

The TV version was simply Pretty Woman, Westeros style, a Disney version that lacks any realism or logic at all.

 It's the sort of thing some men dig. A typical male fantasy, about the hooker who finds them so irresistible they fuck 'em for free or even fall in love with 'em. See Tyrion in Volantis and Pod in KL. Because women who literally sell their bodies are actually just waiting for that special manly hero to swoop in and show them what love is. 

Or some such rot. It's lazy and stale, IMO. 

 

[Crixus]

13 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Zombie heart is not a strong powerful woman. She's a revenge monster. There's nothing interesting about her. Now give her arc to Sansa or Arya and then we're talking.

 Who's Zombie heart? 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Crixus said:

 It's the sort of thing some men dig. A typical male fantasy, about the hooker who finds them so irresistible they fuck 'em for free or even fall in love with 'em. See Tyrion in Volantis. Because women who literally sell their bodies are actually just waiting for that special manly hero to swoop in and show them what love is. 

Or some such rot. It's lazy and stale, IMO. 

 

Its unsurprising you misunderstood not only Shae but the Volantis scene as well. Its fine if you want to come on and find some things to genuinely argue about on here, but at the very least watch the show properly.

[Crixus]

It's 'unsurprising'? Why, because you know me so well? I don't recall sharing a single conversation with you on this forum or anywhere else, so please drop the overly familiar tone.

How do you know whether I've watched the show 'properly'? What does that mean, exactly? And in what sense do you get to tell me 'it's fine if you want to'? I didn't realise I needed your approval before commenting on here. Again, kindly drop the personal tone. I find it off-putting and creepy. 

Where do you get off claiming I have misunderstood the scene? I clearly said this was my opinion, a subjective take on a scene; not a math equation that's either right or wrong.

Someone cited Pretty Woman above and this shit is exactly that: a whore gets treated well by a magnanimous hero and falls in love. IN MY OPINION. In case the font size was too small for you the last time. 

It's fine if you want to come on and over-praise the show and excuse its mistakes till you drop, but at the very least try to employ a civil and reasonable tone. 

 

[Darkstream]

39 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its unsurprising you misunderstood not only Shae but the Volantis scene as well. Its fine if you want to come on and find some things to genuinely argue about on here, but at the very least watch the show properly.

 Oops, hook came out. 

[Darkstream]

28 minutes ago, Crixus said:

 Who's Zombie heart? 

Lady stone heart. 

Don't mind the troll, granted he's not usually as obvious a troll as jackbauer 24, but a troll nonetheless. 

[Crixus]

Honestly! What a clever invention: zombie heart. I'm floored. Martin should take notes, seeing as how he's such a shit writer he ended up writing the series this show draws its life from. I think some 'fans' don't realise there would not be a show at all without the books. It's as though they imagine GoT sprung fully formed from D&D's collective brain, much like Athena with Zeus. 

Another brilliant story-telling layer that was removed from Troy, funnily enough: the gods and their involvement in the war. I'm re-reading the Iliad right now.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

16 minutes ago, Crixus said:

It's 'unsurprising'? Why, because you know me so well? I don't recall sharing a single conversation with you on this forum or anywhere else, so please drop the overly familiar tone.

How do you know whether I've watched the show 'properly'? What does that mean, exactly? And in what sense do you get to tell me 'it's fine if you want to'? I didn't realise I needed your approval before commenting on here. Again, kindly drop the personal tone. I find it off-putting and creepy. 

Where do you get off claiming I have misunderstood the scene? I clearly said this was my opinion, a subjective take on a scene; not a math equation that's either right or wrong.

Someone cited Pretty Woman above and this shit is exactly that: a whore gets treated well by a magnanimous hero and falls in love. IN MY OPINION. In case the font size was too small for you the last time. 

It's fine if you want to come on and over-praise the show and excuse its mistakes till you drop, but at the very least try to employ a civil and reasonable tone. 

 

Its unsurprising because you are hardly the first person to rage at Tyrion being whitewashed, because a whore would do it for free.. except she never said she'd do it for free at all. Its simply one of many common complaints about the show that are seemingly based on hearsay, second hand information and a total disregard for what was on the screen. I honestly have no problem with anyone criticising the show, there is plenty to criticise, but at least make it a valid point, not some bizarre conspiracy nonsense. 

[Crixus]

And Pod in KL? What of that? 

I'm commenting, not raging. This isn't what raging looks like, really. Again with the personal commenting. 

 

 

[Miss_Saffron]

I really, really don't think Shae genuinely fell in love with Tyrion at any point. He with her - sure. But she with him - doubtfull. She wouldn't do what she did during the trial and especially later with Tywin if she loved Tyrion. Yes, you may argue, that she fell in love then became jealous of Sansa and selling Tyrion out was a revenge of a scorned lover.

But you may also argue that the true reason for her anger was simply a fear that Sansa will eventually get her out of the job. What she and Tyrion had in her eyes was a simple transaction - he gets sex, she gets money and all his niceties and talks about how he cares for her is a bull. She does not believe in love or that Tyrion really cares, but she goes along with it  like with any other fantasy of her clients - one likes to pretend he worships Seven, and Tyrion likes to pretend it's all romance. Then Sansa comes and Shae thinks 'Tyrion will get sex from Sansa now, no need for me'. She gets angry because she'll lose a good job, far better than in any whorehouse. She plays it up as a jealousy because she knows men, knows Tyrion will interpret it as a proof she loves him back and will try to appease her. But she also knows this cannot last forever, so when Lannisters come to her and say 'sell Tyrion out, we'll give you a nice retirement - don't and you're dead' it's a no-brainer for her. In this interpretation, she is consistently a cold-hearted whore, who plays Tyrion like a fiddle - and incidentally some of the audience.

One thing should be clear - Shae didn't shag Tyrion as a charity case. He gave her jewellery, clothes, a place to live in a castle. Yes, she moonlighted as Sansa's handmaiden, but that's still a far better job and job benefits than what Shae would get in a whorehouse. So yes, she had a good business with him, her love didn't have to come into this at any point.

The only instance show actually says a person got sex from whores for free is Pod. And even then it's made clear it was his talent and not whores falling in love with him.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

6 minutes ago, Crixus said:

And Pod in KL? What of that? 

I'm commenting, not raging. This isn't what raging looks like, really. Again with the personal commenting. 

 

 

What of it? It was a funny moment. As said below.. none of them fell in love with him

[Crixus]

Prostitutes offering free sex is ridiculous, not funny, seeing as how that's the way they earn a living. Also, they showed the brothel owner, LF, being a ruthless master in the scene with Ros in S2, post bastard slaying. So it comes off silly and far-fetched that several prostitutes from the same brothel all decide not to charge a customer. Further, it compounds the depiction of prostitutes in GoT (I think they did a good job with Ros though). 

Anyway, whether you find it distasteful or funny is a matter of opinion so I'll leave it at that. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Crixus said:

Prostitutes offering free sex is ridiculous, not funny, seeing as how that's the way they earn a living. Also, they showed the brothel owner, LF, being a ruthless master in the scene with Ros in S2, post bastard slaying. So it comes off silly and far-fetched that several prostitutes from the same brothel all decide not to charge a customer. Further, it compounds the depiction of prostitutes in GoT (I think they did a good job with Ros though). 

Anyway, whether you find it distasteful or funny is a matter of opinion so I'll leave it at that. 

Its not ridiculous. In fact it happens. Either way, it was a funny moment on the show, if you want to get your knickers in a twist about it then thats your choice.

[Crixus]

I just wrote: a matter of opinion so I'll leave it at that. Do you read what you reply to? 

WTF is with the 'knickers in a twist' comment? Hyperbole much? Not liking something doesn't equal getting one's knickers in a twist. Exaggeration gets old after the 3rd time, and I find it tiresome and immature and worse, dull. 

Also, I don't care how common this insult is, I don't appreciate such gendered shit flung my way by any male, whether online or in RL. Thanks. 

Oh, and 'it happens'? How do you know? Can you prove it? Wow. 

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its unsurprising you misunderstood not only Shae but the Volantis scene as well. Its fine if you want to come on and find some things to genuinely argue about on here, but at the very least watch the show properly.

Sure, only you get the show because you are so much smarter than everyone else and it is so complicated you need an IQ of 160 and 2 PhD to "really" get it.

20 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its not ridiculous. In fact it happens. Either way, it was a funny moment on the show

Sure, if you are 12, it might seem mildly funny.

[Neds Secret]

8 minutes ago, Crixus said:

I just wrote: a matter of opinion so I'll leave it at that. Do you read what you reply to? 

WTF is with the 'knickers in a twist' comment? Hyperbole much? Not liking something doesn't equal getting one's knickers in a twist. Exaggeration gets old after the 3rd time, and I find it tiresome and immature and worse, dull. 

Also, I don't care how common this insult is, I don't appreciate such gendered shit flung my way by any male, whether online or in RL. Thanks. 

Oh, and 'it happens'? How do you know? Can you prove it? Wow. 

Yeah I could not imagine it happening too often, seems like too rough a trade to decide to start giving it away.  I also would be extremely interested in the poster providing some sort of proof of this and also feel it would be truly enlightening to see the posters experience or qualifications in such matters, as from what I've seen of the modern world it seems highly unlikely that it would happen often, in the Universe GoT is set in, even less often unless forced upon them.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

9 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Sure, only you get the show because you are so much smarter than everyone else and it is so complicated you need an IQ of 160 and 2 PhD to "really" get it.

Sure, if you are 12, it might seem mildly funny.

No.. its just that if you bother to watch the scene, instead of repeat other peoples complaints you read once, you'd understand the meaning of what was said. Its pretty simple.