Strong powerful women

[WeCameFromNorth]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:58 PM, Tianzi said:

I actually liked Cat's book 'flaws' and wombing her up (at least she didn't get additional forgotten child) and the infamous 'If I only loved Jon Snow' annoyed me, but to be fair, from the earlier seasons I remember more my impression than specific changes. I don't know what they exactly did to Cat, but somehow they lost her.

I also thinks her character was a collateral damage of the Talisa storyline, she was reduced to a bumbling mother in law who DOESN'T UNDERSTAND that her sonny is in lurv; and the fact that Robb performed this whole idiotic stunt right under her nose and she was powerless to get to him (in the books it happened far away and it was hinted he at least knew he did a risky thing and was anxious to face his mother) undermines her even more. Just a hen helplessly left behind when her chicks grow wings.

I still have to read whole tread, but I already have Cat on my mind from the other thread, so I just want to say: there’s really strong woman, beautiful and feminine and clever. Should all women in this beautiful world of ours take up arms to be recognized as strong? Or they all should strive to be Tywins with tits? Back to reading from the page one.

[SuperMario]

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Is book Brienne wandering around constantly asking the same question riveting progression?

You're confusing character progression with plot progression. If we're going by your definition of character progression, if D&D decided to have Brienne find a worm hole that could transport her to Planetos 23 in the galaxy Agencydromeda technically that would be some amazing character progression.

[Meera of Tarth]

11 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Is book Brienne wandering around constantly asking the same question riveting progression?

That's not progression, and that's not regression. It's just her story developing.

By progression I understand the reasons of her actions

In the show she turns into a extremely Brute woman when she wasn't as much, and when Jaime made her more human, and in the books she constantly remembers Jaime because he had an impact on her life.

In the show she forgets about Jaime from one episode to the next one. And she thought of Jaime a lot. In the Purple Wedding, when they said goodbye......there was something there.

 

In the case of Jaime, the mess doesn't need explanation. He did an amazing progression as a character and when he sees Cersei again he is upset with her. OK. I understand these are two stories. AND I'm not saying he is in love with Brienne, BUT he is starting to feel something. And in the show, the same happened. Then, he forgot all that and now says:

Quote

f*ck prophecy. f*ck fate. f*ck everyone who isn't us. We're the only ones who matter, the only ones in this world. And everything they've taken from us, we're going to take back and more. We're going to take everything there is.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=26857

He is a puppet!

So you consider Brienne's adventures a lack of progression in her character but you approve Jaime saying the blue line after what he had experienced with Brienne in S3?

[Jack Bauer 24]

7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That's not progression, and that's not regression. It's just her story developing.

By progression I understand the reasons of her actions, becoming extremely Brute when she wasn't as much, and when Jaime made her more human, and in the books she constantly remembers Jaime because he had an impact on her life.

In the show she forgets about Jaime from one episode to the next one. And she thought of Jaime a lot. In the Purple Wedding, when they said goodbye......there was something there.

 

In the case of Jaime, the mess doesn't need explanation. He did an amazing progression as a character and when he sees Cersei again he is upset with her. OK. I understand this are two stories. AND I'm not saying he is in love with Brienne, BUT he is starting to feel something. And in the show, the same happened. Then, he forgot all that and now says:

He is a puppet!

So you consider Brienne's adventurous a lack of progression in her character but you approve Jaime saying the blue line after what he had experienced with Brienne in S3?

Yes, I do approve. People change. This mans daughter was just murdered.  

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Yes, I do approve. People change. This mans daughter was just murdered.  

As I said, the mess is done. I don't expect him to say you are a stupid whore! 

Notice I bolded only the blue line. I'm ok with him saying fuck of the prophecy to confort her.

Quote

f*ck prophecy. f*ck fate. f*ck everyone who isn't us. We're the only ones who matter, the only ones in this world. And everything they've taken from us, we're going to take back and more. We're going to take everything there is.

BUT That doesn't mean he has to say that and then become her puppet and buffoon. That's not character progression at all. It's a regression to S1 Jaime.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Yes, I do approve. People change. This mans daughter was just murdered.  

They do. And on GoT they change from season to season then back again, or from episode to episode and even from scene to scene, and then back again. They change as often as the plot demands, and that's lazy writing, not character development. 

[Meera of Tarth]

And you may like S1 Jaime. We have different opinions.

BUt it's a regression. If you are OK with S1 Jaime, fine. But we were not talking about what we like, but of character development and cohesion.

[Jack Bauer 24]

33 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As I said, the mess is done. I don't expect him to say you are a stupid whore! 

Notice I bolded only the blue line. I'm ok with him saying fuck of the prophecy to confort her.

BUT That doesn't mean he has to say that and then become her puppet and buffoon. That's not character progression at all. It's a regression to S1 Jaime.

But is it really a regression to go back to S1 Jaime after his daughter was murdered, sister/lover shamed, his sons wife is locked up, the HS has taken over his home...

[Tianzi]

53 minutes ago, WeCameFromNorth said:

I still have to read whole tread, but I already have Cat on my mind from the other thread, so I just want to say: there’s really strong woman, beautiful and feminine and clever. Should all women in this beautiful world of ours take up arms to be recognized as strong? Or they all should strive to be Tywins with tits? Back to reading from the page one.

I'm not raising a complaint over Cat now waving a machete, but over her show version being flattened by showing her into some Madonna archetype, at the cost of her other traits.

2 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

The treatment of show Catelyn was quite strange. I think the only change they made that I liked was her releasing Jaime in order to protect him from Karstark. (But that's a change that had to made because the budget prevented them from putting Jaime in a castle cell, like the books, where it was easier to defend him. And of course Karstark's sons had been killed in the Whispering Woods, not five minutes ago during Jaime's cousin-murdering escape. And Karstark had held his peace, only killing Lannister hostages in reaction to Catelyn's actions.) Initially, it seemed like they were trying to make her more likable by toning down her dislike of Jon, but they ended up taking a lot away from her character. She's a loving mother in the books, but she's politically savvy and wants to protect the rights of her children. Sansa could be queen, dangit! Bastards and sons of bastards plague the true born kids for generations, just look at those Blackfyres, Robb!  Lady Stoneheart is the beyond-the-grave vengeance of a women who thought she'd lost everything (ironically, the only murdered child was the one she saw killed before her eyes). 

OK, I'm going to go on about her dislike of Jon.

Generally I think that if your husband cheats on you and humiliates you, you are resentful. That's how it works. And looking at the fruit of this on a daily basic isn't make you rainbows and roses inside. Of course, blaming it on a child is unfair and both media showed that Cat's behavior took a toll on Jon.

But in the context of Westeros' culture? In the books only one bastard is told to live as comfortable life as Jon, and he is the King's and a noblewoman's acknowleged bastard, also no 'stepmother' is bothered by Edric presence (probably for his own good, lol). In Westeros bringing bastards to the castle is humiliation of the wife. One bastard is made a servant in her father's castle, most live peasant life - including the Kings bastards, one of them ends up a prostitute. Cat is cold to Jon, but she doesn't mistreat him, yes, she blames him for something she shouldn't but let's take a look on other people: book Cersei doesn't need any comment, Stannis calls Gilly's kid an abomination, Tommen, Joff and Myrcella are called that on a regular basis, and let's not get started on Robert, who would likely executed them, had he learned about their paternity. The general opinion of the bastards is also quite low and blaming children for their parents' sin is a commonplace. By the Westerosi standard Cat is close to a saint in her treatment of Jon.

By modern standards of course not, but still - she is really under no obligation to love the kid or be happy with his presence in the castle. It's human, she doesn't have to be sorry for it.

Only D&D won't have any of it, because Cat is a mother (not The Mother, but only because it goes to show Cersei!), so she has to be the angel of the household and if she fails, she will at least voice regret. You are not allowed to have any other feelings than your motherly devotion, damnit.

2 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

As for the portrayal of sex workers, in the world of Westeros and Essos, a lot of women would be forced by circumstance and slavery to be prostitutes. They'd have to answer to pimps and masters or else work hard on their own to get every bit of coin they could. Braavos seems to be the only place where sex workers have any kind of power on their own (including maybe becoming a sex worker because they actually want to), and yet the show has narrowed Arya's storyline to getting hit with a stick. Chataya's place is also eliminated, where a woman is running the show and seems to treat her workers better than Littlefinger (she at least was plenty pissed at Our Good Friend Allar Deem). The "Pod the Sex God" plot nugget was a waste of valuable time that I honestly did not find funny at all. 

That's why book Shae is at least a consistent and understandable character (Tyrion was her sentimental client and afair at some points he wasn't really paying her), if not too sympathetic, and don't like that they felt to change her into someone 'better' (that's apart from the sheer cheesiness of the change).

[SuperMario]

17 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

But is it really a regression to go back to S1 Jaime after his daughter was murdered, sister/lover shamed, his sons wife is locked up, the HS has taken over his home...

From how his character was progressing?? Yes. Considering he did not care for any of these people in season 3 and even season 4, it is a regression. He gives away the Valryian sword his father gives him, lets Tyrion escape, pisses off Cersei and Tywin, and defends Brienne to everyone. Basically, he does everything to give up that old Lannister part of him.

He didn't seem to care much when Joffrey died. Yet all of a sudden his incest daughter dies and he weeps with sorrow because they shared one tender moment in her entire life? And he comes groveling back to Cersei and says fuck everything except them? If you call that progression, I don't want to borrow your dictionary.

[Jack Bauer 24]

8 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

From how his character was progressing?? Yes. Considering he did not care for any of these people in season 3 and even season 4, it is a regression. He gives away the Valryian sword his father gives him, lets Tyrion escape, pisses off Cersei and Tywin, and defends Brienne to everyone. Basically, he does everything to give up that old Lannister part of him.

He didn't seem to care much when Joffrey died. Yet all of a sudden his incest daughter dies and he weeps with sorrow because they shared one tender moment in her entire life? And he comes groveling back to Cersei and says fuck everything except them? If you call that progression, I don't want to borrow your dictionary.

He was NEVER able to have a moment like that with ANY of his kids. Something like that can completely change you. Is there any particular reason why you are not understanding something so basic?

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Yes, I do approve. People change. This mans daughter was just murdered.  

It's too bad he didn't show this same progression regression when his eldest son was murdered, all of a sudden, because plot demands, he now cares about his childern? 

Eta: ah, I see @SuperMariohas already brought this up. It seems @Jack Bauer 24 is the only one that is unable to understand this, why? 

[SuperMario]

31 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

He was NEVER able to have a moment like that with ANY of his kids. Something like that can completely change you. Is there any particular reason why you are not understanding something so basic?

I understand it completely. The writing of GOT is not difficult to comprehend because I drink and I know things. That's not the problem. The problem is having what transpires on the screen come off naturally to the viewer. If they want to make Jaime love Cersei again because the plot demands it or Ellaria murder much of her family to get revenge for.....her family, I get it. (OK maybe I don't get that last one) But it's just poor writing. They have their characters act a certain way and then sustain some forced cathartic moment that allows them to change 180 degrees. And it's all to fit it into their convoluted "story".  Or as Mr. Benioff more elegantly put it: "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

[Jack Bauer 24]

22 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

I understand it completely. The writing of GOT is not difficult to comprehend because I drink and I know things. That's not the problem. The problem is having what transpires on the screen come off naturally to the viewer. If they want to make Jaime love Cersei again because the plot demands it or Ellaria murder much of her family to get revenge for.....her family, I get it. (OK maybe I don't get that last one) But it's just poor writing. They have their characters act a certain way and then sustain some forced cathartic moment that allows them to change 180 degrees. And it's all to fit it into their convoluted "story".  Or as Mr. Benioff more elegantly put it: "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

"Where do whores go." "Fat pink mast." If you want to be a pedant and throw around lines we can sit here and do that.

[Sveto]

The only strong women are Arya and Brienne, the others are psychopaths with daddy issues. The only powerful woman is Denerys, the others are like Cercei in book 4.

[Jack Bauer 24]

5 minutes ago, Sveto said:

The only strong women are Arya and Brienne, the others are psychopaths with daddy issues. The only powerful woman is Denerys, the others are like Cercei in book 4.

Ellaria doesn't have daddy issues. Don't think Sansa does either. Or Mel. Or...

[Sveto]

6 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Ellaria doesn't have daddy issues. Don't think Sansa does either. Or Mel. Or...

Ellaria is a psychopath, Sansa can't do anything alone, Mel can't be strong/powerful because she fears and serves her god, she is a puppet. The same for Theon's sister, she was proving her father something her whole life. If Arya "is really no one, she have nothing to fear".

[Jack Bauer 24]

2 minutes ago, Sveto said:

Ellaria is a psychopath, Sansa can't do anything alone, Mel can't be strong/powerful because he fears and serves her god, she is a puppet. The same for Theon's sister, she was proving her father something her whole life. If Arya "is really no one, she have nothing to fear".

Sansa just told Jon she would do it alone if she had to. Are you even watching the show or are you making up wanker stuff because you're wrong?

[Liver and Onions]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

I'm not raising a complaint over Cat now waving a machete, but over her show version being flattened by showing her into some Madonna archetype, at the cost of her other traits.

OK, I'm going to go on about her dislike of Jon.

Generally I think that if your husband cheats on you and humiliates you, you are resentful. That's how it works. And looking at the fruit of this on a daily basic isn't make you rainbows and roses inside. Of course, blaming it on a child is unfair and both media showed that Cat's behavior took a toll on Jon.

But in the context of Westeros' culture? In the books only one bastard is told to live as comfortable life as Jon, and he is the King's and a noblewoman's acknowleged bastard, also no 'stepmother' is bothered by Edric presence (probably for his own good, lol). In Westeros bringing bastards to the castle is humiliation of the wife. One bastard is made a servant in her father's castle, most live peasant life - including the Kings bastards, one of them ends up a prostitute. Cat is cold to Jon, but she doesn't mistreat him, yes, she blames him for something she shouldn't but let's take a look on other people: book Cersei doesn't need any comment, Stannis calls Gilly's kid an abomination, Tommen, Joff and Myrcella are called that on a regular basis, and let's not get started on Robert, who would likely executed them, had he learned about their paternity. The general opinion of the bastards is also quite low and blaming children for their parents' sin is a commonplace. By the Westerosi standard Cat is close to a saint in her treatment of Jon.

By modern standards of course not, but still - she is really under no obligation to love the kid or be happy with his presence in the castle. It's human, she doesn't have to be sorry for it.

Only D&D won't have any of it, because Cat is a mother (not The Mother, but only because it goes to show Cersei!), so she has to be the angel of the household and if she fails, she will at least voice regret. You are not allowed to have any other feelings than your motherly devotion, damnit.

 

I agree. I know a lot of book readers dislike Cat for her treatment of Jon ( and many more just dislike her treatment of Jon), but I always appreciated it. (And I like Jon, too, shocking!) It was logical; she wouldn't be maternal toward Jon, but she had it in her to be civil. In the beginning, the show seemed to give excuses (to my eye, at least) why some of Cat's lines were changed. The infamous "it should have been you" was changed to "I want you to leave," and in-story you could argue it because she knew better to say something so cruel (even under such grief and duress) to Jon with Ned standing in the doorway. (I think this is the Watsonian vs. Doylist perspective on character motivation, I'm going to have to look that up. As I understand it, it's the character making a decision in story for his/her reasons vs. the character making a decision in story because of the author's reasons, but I know it's more complicated than that.) Out of story, it's to preserve Cat's motherly integrity, ignoring the fact that what makes a noble-born mother interesting in Westeros is what she does to ensure the power of her children and her house (her husbands and her family's), even at the expense of others. 

[Sveto]

3 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Sansa just told Jon she would do it alone if she had to. Are you even watching the show or are you making up wanker stuff because you're wrong?

I said she can't do anything alone. You're the one making up things, because there is difference between something she did and something she said she would do but will she? Don't have intention to reply to you anymore, bye.