Strong powerful women

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Pies are coming said:

If the show keeps Jeyne, how do the also give screen time to Sansa? And more, how do they give screen time to Sansa doing something other than organizing tournaments? Heck, would anyone call Sansa organizing a tournament the mark of a "strong woman"?

Well, exactly. Sansa's WF storyline was a heavy-handed attempt to StrongWoman^TM up her, done wrong.

And if they couldn't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all.

[TepidHands]

18 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Well, that lowered the tone of a previously interesting conversation.

For that guy, it's not a bug, it's a FEATURE. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, Ser Quork said:

Screen time for Sansa should have been limited to her picking up subtle skills of manipulation from LF (that's what all this tournament arranging etc. is about).  We wouldn't have seen so much of her, which, frankly, given how she was portrayed in s5 could only be a good thing.  (After all, we didn't have Bran at all for a whole season).  Less Sansa, more Northern Lords remembering, and I'll have Frey pies with that, please.

I would very much like to have seen a Sansa with a consistent character arc: becoming more sure of her particular skills, courtesy, court knowledge, etc., perhaps our seeing her using that upper hand she gained on LF in season 4, perhaps being a little more sly. 

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

[Ser Quork]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

If that's as limited as your imagination is for political manoeuvring, sure, it wouldn't be gripping.

I seem to recall that a lot of viewers were excited that she turned the tables on LF by lying for him and effectively owing her for his life.  I'm sure they would have liked to see more of that.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Ser Quork said:

If that's as limited as your imagination is for political manoeuvring, sure, it wouldn't be gripping.

I seem to recall that a lot of viewers were excited that she turned the tables on LF by lying for him and effectively owing her for his life.  I'm sure they would have liked to see more of that.

I didn't like that in the show. I don't want Sansa using her manipulative mind to put her into dangerous, dramatic situations. I want her to be miles away, organising a nice party and making sure all the kids are having a nice time.

[HairGrowsBack]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

snip

First of all, your use of the term "manpain"is completely misguided. Theon's story is a tragedy ; much of it is his own fault, but calling endless torture and psychological abuse "man pain" is ridiculous and invalidates your point.

Jeyne isn't developped much because she's a minor character. You just can't start and developping every minor character you've created, since you've done so specifically to serve a more important character's story. That's storytelling 101, and there is nothing wrong with that. Jeyne is there to propel Theon's character development, and make a statement about the fate of the "nobodies" of Westeros. You're supposed to feel for her, but I don't see why you'd expect her to be more fleshed out than she is. That's her purpose, and there is nothing sexist about it. You have a lot of male characters that are there to prop up female characters. Should Qarl the Maid, Hyle Hunt or Dontos be more fleshed out than they are ? Of course not. Same goes for Jeyne. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, HairGrowsBack said:

First of all, your use of the term "manpain"is completely misguided. Theon's story is a tragedy ; much of it is his own fault, but calling endless torture and psychological abuse "man pain" is ridiculous and invalidates your point.

Jeyne isn't developped much because she's a minor character. You just can't start and developping every minor character you've created, since you've done so specifically to serve a more important character's story. That's storytelling 101, and there is nothing wrong with that. Jeyne is there to propel Theon's character development, and make a statement about the fate of the "nobodies" of Westeros. You're supposed to feel for her, but I don't see why you'd expect her to be more fleshed out than she is. That's her purpose, and there is nothing sexist about it. You have a lot of male characters that are there to prop up female characters. Should Qarl the Maid, Hyle Hunt or Dontos be more fleshed out than they are ? Of course not. Same goes for Jeyne. 

Very well said, I agree. 

[Tianzi]

18 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

Sansa's storyline in AFFC was slow. I can understand how it can be seen as uninteresintg.

On the other hand, Sansa's WF storyline was shit. And it wasn't too interesting either, only more violent, repetitive, illogical, and character-damaging.

I can see how some people are not to hot at serving tea in Vale, but thinking that the show version was any improvment... lol.

9 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

First of all, your use of the term "manpain"is completely misguided. Theon's story is a tragedy ; much of it is his own fault, but calling endless torture and psychological abuse "man pain" is ridiculous and invalidates your point.

Jeyne isn't developped much because she's a minor character. You just can't start and developping every minor character you've created, since you've done so specifically to serve a more important character's story. That's storytelling 101, and there is nothing wrong with that. Jeyne is there to propel Theon's character development, and make a statement about the fate of the "nobodies" of Westeros. You're supposed to feel for her, but I don't see why you'd expect her to be more fleshed out than she is. That's her purpose, and there is nothing sexist about it. You have a lot of male characters that are there to prop up female characters. Should Qarl the Maid, Hyle Hunt or Dontos be more fleshed out than they are ? Of course not. Same goes for Jeyne. 

Well, that's another reason why I accepted Jeyne's story being about Theon, but not so much with Sansa's story.

[OldGimletEye]

23 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

Yeah, because seeing her get into Winterhell, just to get raped and abused, under the most convoluted scenario imaginable was just so dramatically satisfying.
Wintherhell was nothing but low rent soap opera drama. Frickin terrible.

[HairGrowsBack]

Just now, Tianzi said:

Sansa's storyline in AFFC was slow. I can understand how it can be seen as uninteresintg.

On the other hand, Sansa's WF storyline was shit. And it wasn't too interesting either, only more violent, repetitive, illogical, and character-damaging.

I can see how some people are not to hot at serving tea in Vale, but thinking that the show version was any improvment... lol.

Well, that's another reason why I accepted Jeyne's story being about Theon, but not so much with Sansa's story.

Exactly. Although I would argue it was neither Theon or Sansa's story, but mostly Ramsay's.

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very well said, I agree. 

Thank you.

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

I think @Ser Quork was referring to the stuff we see in her last chapters and in Alayne, from Winds.

These are intriguing things. LF teaching her political maneuvering would have "empowered" her more than being the bride of Ramsay.

It's like Arya's situation: in the show we only had her being constantly beaten, but not other learning: like language learning, spying, being different people (we only had Cat Lana of the Canals).

[Jack Bauer 24]

24 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

She could also have picked up subtle skills that will teach her intrigue and political maneuvering in exciting, page turning ways.. like picking what food to have to for lunch, wiping snot from a childs nose, talking to a girl.. sitting around. Honestly I WISH that was in the show, it would have been gripping. GRIPPING!

HUGO worthy stuff wasn't it

[Tianzi]

2 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Exactly. Although I would argue it was neither Theon or Sansa's story, but mostly Ramsay's.

Well, there is a food chain and Ramsay Sue is on the top.

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Well, there is a food chain and Ramsay Sue is on the top.

Right. How does one get everything so wrong...

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Well, there is a food chain and Ramsay Sue is on the top.

Ramsay is fighting to be the fourth SuperFour.

[Jack Bauer 24]

With Ramsay hated, Beinoff and Weiss have done their jobs perfectly. Kudos to them

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

With Ramsay hated, Beinoff and Weiss have done their jobs perfectly. Kudos to them

I thought their jobs was to tell the story not recreate another Joffery

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

With Ramsay hated, Beinoff and Weiss have done their jobs perfectly. Kudos to them

Not really. We're supposed to hate Ramsay because he's a monster, not because he's terribly written.

[Tianzi]

I think this comparison insults Joffrey.

2 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

With Ramsay hated, Beinoff and Weiss have done their jobs perfectly. Kudos to them

I'd try to explain to you how this hate is caused by terrible writing, not the character being evil... but I have a feeling I'd be wasting my time, so I think I'll try this magic 'ignore' button instead.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, HashRouge said:

Plus, let's be realistic. Show-only fans wouldn't have a chance in hell of remembering who Jeyne Poole was. I can't actually remember if she was in the show at all, but even if she was no-one would remember her/ recognise her. Suddenly introducing her in season 5 would have confused everyone. 

Viewers don't have to remember or recognize her. She only needs to be someone who isn't a Stark.

She could have just been seen being sent off to Winterfell, telling Jaime (or whoever), "I'm Arya Stark". Now, the viewers know very well she's not Arya Stark and it's immediately intriguing.

It wouldn't require much time, either. D&D were able to evoke strong viewer reactions to Karsi, the wildling woman, and she was only on-screen for a handful of minutes.