Strong powerful women

[Kingpin]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Huh, that's some new definition.

That's the point of all things! 

Why do you think people get annoyed with certain characters and plots and not with others, because their attitude is inconsistent with who they are. You watch the hound acting tough you enjoy it, you watch Joffrey acting tough you want to slap him around. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Characters like Ramsay or Ellaria are just shitty villain sues alive because of their respective plot armors

They achieved everything by themselves. Plot could be different, but it is what it is and they are not out of place. Sam acting like a badass is out of place. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

the power of both come through their birthrights and their skills to control others.

I explained how, it's about being on the top of the conspiracy chain. Olenna knows how things work, Margaery is learning. They perceive things differently, as in one is an adult and the other is a kid lost in the mall. Like Tywin was a weak old man and had hereditary power, but he was behind all the conspiracies. The way he talked with Olenna as equals in perception he didn't talk with anyone else, who were just ordered around. Even his kids were unaware of his wishes, but Olenna knew because she could perceive things as far as only one at the same height as Tywin could. To me that's power, that's why I didn't mind an old weak lady having that attitude. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

I'd also say that Dany back in S1 or so was actually a good example of a woman earning power

Everything was given to her by others, she has no power of her own. Not the skill of Brienne, not the intelligence of the Imp, not the perception and knowledge of Olenna, not the magical powers of Melisandre. She's just a spoiled brat and frankly the only reason people follow her and she's still alive is because the plot says so. And those transformations from someone beaten and hopeless, to act like the conqueror of all kingdoms within hours is getting old and annoying.

41 minutes ago, protar said:

Aren't Faceless (wo)men supposed to be objective and emotionless.

Maybe she's not a faceless woman. Maybe she's in training too, she's obviously of a lower rank to Jaqen h'ghar. 

 

[HairGrowsBack]

15 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Some times women are rivals. Did you complain about Cersei and Margery being rivals for the little king in the books? 

And she distrusts Arya because Arya is a noble and the Faceless Men have a sordid history with the upper class considerng they were formed by disgruntled slaves. 

They don't give a fig about Tommen, let's be real. They're doing it mostly for power. They are rivals, because yes that happens, but they have a reason to be. 

This argument still doesn't fly. She isn't supposed to have this type of emotions (or any type, really). This isn't a political party, for pete's sake.

[RoamingRonin]

54 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

They are rivals

Glad we can agree on that.

This argument still doesn't fly. She isn't supposed to have this type of emotions (or any type, really). This isn't a political party, for pete's sake.

Believing Arya is not supposed to be in the Faceless Men is not an emotion, it's an opinion.

[HairGrowsBack]

30 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Glad we can agree on that.

 

 

Believing Arya is not supposed to be in the Faceless Men is not an emotion, it's an opinion.

Come on. She's being incredibly emotional about it. When Arya blocked her attacks last time, she had tears glistening in her eyes.

Look, ultimately it isn't about having no rivalry between women at all , because yes, it happens. The issue is that it's basically all we have when it comes to women interacting. For every positive-ish interaction you have 10 catfights. The show keeps establishing those patterns, and obviously so, to the point where I just can't give them benefit of the doubt anymore.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Come on. She's being incredibly emotional about it. When Arya blocked her attacks last time, she had tears glistening in her eyes.

Look, ultimately it isn't about having no rivalry between women at all , because yes, it happens. The issue is that it's basically all we have when it comes to women interacting. For every positive-ish interaction you have 10 catfights. The show keeps establishing those patterns, and obviously so, to the point where I just can't give them benefit of the doubt anymore.

Maybe they should have made Cercei and Margery best buddies, who go to the toilets together and share their deepest thoughts. 

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Maybe they should have made Cercei and Margery best buddies, who go to the toilets together and share their deepest thoughts. 

Maybe you should read my post.

Because I'm pretty sure I said I was fine with Marg and Cersei being rival ; if anything, I even wish it'd been just as mean as the books, but we can't have Cersei being less than perfect now, can we ?

[RoamingRonin]

47 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Come on. She's being incredibly emotional about it. When Arya blocked her attacks last time, she had tears glistening in her eyes.

Look, ultimately it isn't about having no rivalry between women at all , because yes, it happens. The issue is that it's basically all we have when it comes to women interacting. For every positive-ish interaction you have 10 catfights. The show keeps establishing those patterns, and obviously so, to the point where I just can't give them benefit of the doubt anymore.

The Waif has been mostly stoic throughout the season. She doesn't appreciate Jaqen entertaining Arya's ambitions and wants Arya out. That's not her call. And so, by insisting and hoping Arya is dismissed, she's breaking her training.

You seem to want the Waif as she is in the books. That's not what's happening here. It's a different character, different plot line. All things considered, Arya's is one of the most faithful storylines on the show. 

 

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

The Waif has been stoic up until that point. She doesn't appreciate Jaqen entertaining Arya's ambitions and wants Arya out. That's not her call. And so, by insisting and hoping Arya is dismissed, she's breaking her training.

You seem to want the Waif as she is in the books. That's not what's happening here. It's a different character, different plot line. All things considered, Arya's is one of the most faithful storylines on the show. 

 

How do you know all of this though ? What elements indicate she has that particular motivation ? How does beating Arya with a stick help ?

bolded : yup, but that's not saying much.

[Tianzi]

I buy Marg and Cersei's rivalry because they have something to fight over and one's increased influeance over Tommen weakens the other. It's logical. Waif and Arya? Not so much.

5 hours ago, Kingpin said:

They achieved everything by themselves. Plot could be different, but it is what it is and they are not out of place. Sam acting like a badass is out of place. 

They are out of place. You raised the argument of certain events 'feeling forced' and in Ramsay's or Sand Snakes' cases the circumstances have to be heavily strained for any of their 'badassery' to succeed.

And Sam is definitely not on the top of food chain if they were to choose world's strongest man, I agree. But having him survived where the others didn't and kill a White Walker where nobody else managed that, counts as well, and many of the 'tougher' characters who belittle him would (and have) spectacularly failed in his place.

5 hours ago, Kingpin said:

I explained how, it's about being on the top of the conspiracy chain. Olenna knows how things work, Margaery is learning. They perceive things differently, as in one is an adult and the other is a kid lost in the mall. Like Tywin was a weak old man and had hereditary power, but he was behind all the conspiracies. The way he talked with Olenna as equals in perception he didn't talk with anyone else, who were just ordered around. Even his kids were unaware of his wishes, but Olenna knew because she could perceive things as far as only one at the same height as Tywin could. To me that's power, that's why I didn't mind an old weak lady having that attitude. 

Olenna is further on that road that Marg, no argument with that, but the core is the same: working the system. In a world constructed like Westeros this is a primary ability to generate power, and Marg is good at that even if her major (though not only) skill is manipulating a teenage boy's hormones.

And case in point: Margaery freed herself from the prison, while Olenna was powerless to do so (even if the Tyrell army intervened it would be Mace, not Olenna).

More on that: LF is a prime example of working the system, earning his share himself and being on the top of conspiracy chain. Still, in the 'power is power' scene when he started barking at Cersei (very out of character behaviour for him, btw), she shut him up in a blink and could have him killed (and would if he pissed her off, because she is Cersei and she wouldn't think it through). And so could Sansa with one word to Brienne.

And there is Varys' 'power lies where the people believe it lies'. Joffrey is an utter little shit and there is no talk about 'respect' for him or getting anything himself, but he proved that his one whim was enough to cross everybody else's plans and merrily send the country to the war.

5 hours ago, Kingpin said:

Everything was given to her by others, she has no power of her own. Not the skill of Brienne, not the intelligence of the Imp, not the perception and knowledge of Olenna, not the magical powers of Melisandre. She's just a spoiled brat and frankly the only reason people follow her and she's still alive is because the plot says so. And those transformations from someone beaten and hopeless, to act like the conqueror of all kingdoms within hours is getting old and annoying.

The only things given to her at the start were three dragon eggs which was a major asset, but then again - she is probably the only person in the world who could make them hatch, so sorry but that trumps Melisandre's comparatively weak magic or Brienne's hacking ability.

But the eggs were sitting there looking pretty when she was married to Drogo and had nothing but her skills to rope himself to her and slowly gaining respect from him and the Dothraki by living up to their customs (unlike Viserys). Like it or not, but much like in Marg's case woman's power in a patriarchal world lies in her skill to steer or inspire men and pop and raise heirs. So yeah, as khaleesi she very much earned hers. You can clearly see that the wives of khal Moro (?) didn't have her position in their respective khalasar.

And finally, while I don't buy that Dany has charisma, just as I don't buy Ellaria has sneakiness, it's clearly presented so in-universe in people's reactions to her. Accepting plot-accomodating in one case and calling it out in another is just cherry picking.

 

And final word on attitude: Melisandre wisely states in the books that a figure shouldn't reject external signs of power because they are partly the source of it. Is Dany's behavior annoying and badly written? I will agree with that, but if she wants to be queen, she actually acts correctly not stepping down from queenly attitude.

[RoamingRonin]

11 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

How do you know all of this though ? What elements indicate she has that particular motivation ? How does beating Arya with a stick help ?

bolded : yup, but that's not saying much.

Because she said: "You'll never be one of us, Lady Stark." Because of her reaction when Jaqen accepted her into training. 

How does beating her with a stick help? Ask GRRM. It directly from the books. Anyways, beating your apprentice with a stick is a common martial arts training trope. 

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

Because she said: "You'll never be one of us, Lady Stark." Because of her reaction when Jaqen accepted her into training. 

How does beating her with a stick help? Ask GRRM. It directly from the books. Anyways, beating your apprentice with a stick is a common martial arts training trope. 

The stick beating is completely different in the show.  In the show, they beat her when she lies, and they also beat her randomly, there is no explanation of any goal that goes along with it.

There is also nothing about the waif, her accent, or anything else about her that would indicate she's a peasant who would hate Arya for being a noble.  The show has not alluded to any such motivation, the waif has simply hated Arya on site from the beginning.

[Liver and Onions]

Cersei and Margaery hate each other for reasons other than just being women. They are in competition for the attentions of a man (boy, in this case, the king), but it is obvious that they see this as the path to power. Margaery wants to be queen, Cersei wants to be known as greater than her father. Tommen is a tool for them both. The show brings this over, but I feel it fails to portray Cersei's personal ambition, leaving it as a simply a mother's ambition for her children rather than the more complicated view in the books.

Has the show made it clear that the waif might have dislike for Arya based on anything other than jealousy? Does the waif get a chance to state her case? Will she be killed before her motivations are made clear?

For Meera and Osha, they seem to dislike each other on sight. Does Meera dislike Osha for being a wildling? In the books, Alysanne Mormont despises Asha Greyjoy because the Mormonts and the Ironborn have a history. 

I disagree that character strength is all about earned swagger. After all, many characters in stories start weak and end up physically and mentally stronger because of their progression. Seeing a character earn a powerful reputation or use a bluff to get out of a tight spot is more emotionally satisfying to see, for me, at least. 

Ramsey might be strong in the show, and I assume his earned his fighting skill through training. But I still despise him. I have no respect for him. And one could argue that this will make his demise more satisfying, but I disagree. I still would have to wade through several seasons featuring an unlikeable villain and all his plot gifts to get to it, and that would be a tiring, unpleasant experience. It's hard to explain, but Joffrey was different. Maybe because I could see the spoiled child behind the bluster of a king. He certainly didn't "earn" his swagger, and it allowed the viewers to mock him. I didn't enjoy all his scenes (torturing and killing women was unnecessary), but when Joffrey was killed off, I realized I would miss him as a character. He wasn't likable, but he was fun to watch. 

Varys' riddle to Tyrion comes to mind. Who has the power? The rich man, the priest, the king, or the man with a sword? No one person alone can conquer and rule by themselves. Except for Dany, because she's got a dragon, that she hatched and raised. Does this make her the most powerful? 

 

[RoamingRonin]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

The stick beating is completely different in the show.  In the show, they beat her when she lies, and they also beat her randomly, there is no explanation of any goal that goes along with it.

Explain "randomly" because in the books no one announces to Arya that she's about to be beaten. The Kindly Man appears, thwacks her a few times while asking "Who are you?", and then he fades away. 

I have to wonder if you're feigning confusion. You just said they beat her when she lies which obviously means they are training her to lie better. The Waif challenges her when she's a blind beggar also as part of her combat training. Again: this is from the books and a common martial arts movie trope. Blindfold the pupil and train them to fight based on audio cues. 

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There is also nothing about the waif, her accent, or anything else about her that would indicate she's a peasant who would hate Arya for being a noble.  The show has not alluded to any such motivation, the waif has simply hated Arya on site from the beginning.

Never said she hated her because she's a peasant and Arya's noble. I said she doesn't believe nobles have a place in the Faceless Men considering their history. She said in the beginning Arya didn't earn her coin and doesn't respect it. She believes Arya is unworthy. That's not simple hatred. 

[Cas Stark]

Does it?  But she doesn't ever learn to "lie better"..indeed she is whacked for saying Jon is her brother when this isn't even a lie, she sees him as her brother, LOL.  And please don't try to tell me that she was somehow more believable that last time she said she was "no one" or that she really believed she was "no one" and then one episode later she's right back to Arya Stark, because, again, that's poor story construction.

The beatings in the show are just a mishmash of nothing with the gloss of "martial arts training" as the hand wave that is used to explain away why there is no purpose, rhyme or reason to any of it. 

ETA..um, we know exactly why she is beaten in the books and what the KM is trying to achieve with her.

[Tianzi]

I took the 'Lady Stark' bit as 'you didn't forget your identity, cheater', not 'oh, a lady, you bourgie bitch'.

[protar]

5 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Some times women are rivals. Did you complain about Cersei and Margery being rivals for the little king in the books? 

And she distrusts Arya because Arya is a noble and the Faceless Men have a sordid history with the upper class considering they were formed by disgruntled slaves. 

It's the pattern the show creates though. They insert female rivalry at every turn. Between Arya and the Waif, within the Sandsnakes, between Myranda and Sansa, Osha and Meera, Dany and random khaleesi's. There's absolutely no reason for the Waif to have such an intense hatred of Arya. It's purely to create drama because D+D love writing female on female rivalries. And again, Jaqen indulging the Waif's desire to kill Arya completely goes against the established rules of the FM. They're supposed to be impartial. The Waif is being just as poor a FM as Arya is being. 

[HairGrowsBack]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

I took the 'Lady Stark' bit as 'you didn't forget your identity, cheater', not 'oh, a lady, you bourgie bitch'.

That honey isn't gonna potting itself. 

[RoamingRonin]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Does it?  But she doesn't ever learn to "lie better"..indeed she is whacked for saying Jon is her brother when this isn't even a lie, she sees him as her brother, LOL.

Now you're criticizing something else, steering the subject in a different direction. First you said:

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The stick beating is completely different in the show.  In the show, they beat her when she lies, and they also beat her randomly, there is no explanation of any goal that goes along with it.

Which is bunk as I explained. You know it's part of her training. The goal is she become better at lying, better at fighting, so she can be become a Faceless Man. This was explained in season five.  

Also (about that Jon lie): if you want to nitpick, please head on over to the Rant thread. 

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 And please don't try to tell me that she was somehow more believable that last time she said she was "no one" or that she really believed she was "no one" and then one episode later she's right back to Arya Stark, because, again, that's poor story construction.

If you don't believe it, fine, but that's the how the story is going. Criticize Maise Williams' acting if you will. In the show, Jaqen believes she has improved and so the story advances.

The Kindly Man (in the books) consistently tells Arya "You lie" but her training progresses none the less. 

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The beatings in the show are just a mishmash of nothing with the gloss of "martial arts training" as the hand wave that is used to explain away why there is no purpose, rhyme or reason to any of it. 

ETA..um, we know exactly why she is beaten in the books and what the KM is trying to achieve with her.

There is a reason for it you just choose not to accept it.  You know wha Jaqen is trying to achieve, why you insist on pretending otherwise is beyond me. 

43 minutes ago, protar said:

It's the pattern the show creates though. They insert female rivalry at every turn. Between Arya and the Waif, within the Sandsnakes, between Myranda and Sansa, Osha and Meera, Dany and random khaleesi's. There's absolutely no reason for the Waif to have such an intense hatred of Arya. It's purely to create drama because D+D love writing female on female rivalries. 

The same thing applies to the male characters on the show. I don't know what your point is. This is a drama so its no surprise there is consistent conflict between characters. 

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And again, Jaqen indulging the Waif's desire to kill Arya completely goes against the established rules of the FM. They're supposed to be impartial. The Waif is being just as poor a FM as Arya is being. 

You clearly misunderstand the rules.

[Cas Stark]

LMAO.  No I am criticizing the same thing:  that the "training" on the show is nothing more than a random superficial "martial arts pastiche" and that the beatings for lying is not explained in the show.  It's quite a simple, straightforward criticism.  The same as the fact that there is no explanation in the show for the waif's intense dislike of Arya and her obvious desire to see her fail.  People can claim it's because she's a noble, but that is not even alluded to anywhere in the dialogue. 

And, I'm pretty sure such discussion is allowed on this thread, but thanks just the same for the recommendation.

ETA.  It's not a fault of Maise's acting, it's a fault of poor construction of the scene. And just as I predicted, she almost instantaneously reverts to "Arya Stark" the next time we see her.  The FM appear to be quite poor at training their recruits, based on Arya and Bobcut/waif both being abject failures.  LOL. 

[dsug]

I always kind of saw it as some sort of "good cop, bad cop" routine with the Waif and Jaqen.