Heresy 185

[LordImp]

Good toughts on Quathie eveyrone. I think that Quathie is actually trying the lead Dany down path . Quathie is not the bad guy in Danys arc , but rather the Red priests.

 

But what kind of magic exists in Asshai? What magic is the shadowbinders using ? Dark fire magic ? 

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, LordImp said:

But what kind of magic exists in Asshai? What magic is the shadowbinders using ? Dark fire magic ? 

Interesting one. We don't actually know of course, but Mel does say that the brightest light casts the darkest shadow - or something to that effect.

Perhaps we might have monks and warrior monks - or shadowbinders

[Black Crow]

Just a random thought that occurred to me on another thread...

Craster gave up his sons to become white walkers, but why? Or rather why his sons rather than someone else's sons - did it go beyond his willingness to sacrifice them?

We've discussed this before and whether his sons were taken because they were potential skinchangers. If they were, what about their old Dad? We don't see him as a skinchanger far less a warg, or do we? How else does he impose his will on all those women? His skill may never have developed beyond that but if its there and passed on to his sons it might help explain how they can control the wights.

[LordImp]

@Black Crow interesting stuff about Craster . I think Craster is a Stark and that Stark blood is needed to create WW. If he is a Stark he could very well be a warg . I also think skinchanging or greenseeing are connected with wights . So your idea is very good.

 

About Asshai and the brighest light that casts the darkest shadow. My theory is the that Stygai once was the heart of fire and would then be the brighest source of light . What if someone used the heart of fire to cast this very large shadow over Asshai? 

[Melifeather]

IMO Craster was hood-winked into thinking he was doing a godly deed by sacrificing his sons. Not entirely sure who would have made him believe such a thing, but likely suspects are Dalla, Val, and Mance, or Bloodraven.  Bloodraven could have came to him in a dream.

[Black Crow]

I don't think there was any kidding going on. Craster knew exactly what he was doing and was keeping in with the Old Gods by sacrificing his sons.

[wolfmaid7]

12 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

 

Your arm, please . . .

You know what i mean?

On 6/7/2016 at 11:06 AM, Matthew. said:

Dragons may not be a solution, but that tells us nothing of what Quaithe believes.

Unfortunately, Quaithe is cryptic to the point where the only alternative insight we have is Melisandre, and it's hard to distinguish between what aspects of Melisandre's beliefs are rooted in R'hllorist dogma, and what is rooted in her time in Asshai and her experiences as a shadowbinder.

I think, with Dany's experiences at the end of ADWD, we're getting a bit of mixed bag from Quaithe. She might be warning Dany against the dangers of the dragons, but the context - and seemingly, Dany's own position at the end of ADWD and within the show - supports the opposite: "Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."

If the creation of the Others was responsible for the long winters, it's not unreasonable that a seer that is "in the know" might be, at a minimum, interested in destroying the Others, and perhaps even interested in destroying weirnet.

Edit: Also worth noting is that Quaithe first encounters Dany when both Dany and the dragons are at their most vulnerable, so if she were driven first and foremost by terror of the potential of the dragons, she could have brought things to an abrupt end.

If we assume she's worried about the dragons, then she must intend something more long-term than just stopping their latest rebirth, but she could just as easily be pushing Dany toward creating a world where the sorcery of the shadowbinders is more dominant.

Yes Quaithe is very cryptic but below her cryptic words is her wanting Dany to remember who she is.Which in of itself is weird but that's for another thought.I don't see her as warning Dany against her Dragons she did chastize her for locking them up no? 

Which brings be back to the bolded which is very scary to say the least.Dragons plant no trees indeed,they burn them.Remember your words "fire and blood" .......Yeah Dany isn't going to be a peacemaker.Fire or ice destroy and create the world.They end and bein ages.I've spoken before about certain magical factions creating sympathetic humans which will allow them to come into the new age by surviving the old.Pretty much setting the stage where they can thrive alongside "certain" humans. Maybe Quaithe is also seeking to use powerful tools in order to thrive.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Craster was hood-winked into thinking he was doing a godly deed by sacrificing his sons. Not entirely sure who would have made him believe such a thing, but likely suspects are Dalla, Val, and Mance, or Bloodraven.  Bloodraven could have came to him in a dream.

I agree with this.I don't think its something recent with him so i'm pegging its generational.Its just to ecologically balanced and favors the females if you think about it. No other males except the seed donor to give the illusion of protection and all other potential viable males get killed off leaving the females. Come hell and high water Craster one way or the other-,be it the slow decay of time or getting taken out by the NW- was gonna die.Then what? The women wold have done what? Exactly as they did.Plant Monster across the Wall ensuring the survival of a seed donor,train him to know his "godly duty" cycle begins again.

This all lands on the women, the ratio to women and men alone at the Keep validates this.The are the ones educating.

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think there was any kidding going on. Craster knew exactly what he was doing and was keeping in with the Old Gods by sacrificing his sons.

No doubt he knew what he was doing only because he was taught to do so.

[e1kabong]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just a random thought that occurred to me on another thread...

Craster gave up his sons to become white walkers, but why? Or rather why his sons rather than someone else's sons - did it go beyond his willingness to sacrifice them?

I think there's a lot going on here, but at the end of the day, I think it can boil down to Craster's selfish and obsessive narcissism. Here we have a man who fashions himself the king of his tiny hut, zealously guarding his possessions, land, and wives. It is not enough to barter goods for shelter, Craster demands respect and fealty along with it. To such a narcissistic isolationist, sons are not a continuation of a legacy, but a threat to what is perceived as "his", a male figure to usurp him and take his possessions. By sacrificing his sons to the WWs, he both eliminates internal threats to his authority and forges an alliance with a feared organization. Even if he doesn't believe in WWs, the perceived connection would be enough to thwart outside threats from superstitious wildlings (sort of like implying you have connections to organized crime). It doesn't matter if WWs will protect Craster, but that others think that they might (power lies where it's believed to exist). If he did strike a more formal alliance with the WWs (which is possible, since we know they are intelligent), it's likely he doesn't care about the outside world, as long as the WWs let him maintain his small, sad kingdom.

When you break it down, it's sort of like a distorted mirror of Sam's father. To eliminate him as an heir, Randall forced his son to join an esoteric and far-off organization which provides a vague form of protection from Wildlings and maybe the supernatural. When viewed at like this, it's sort of poetic that Sam saves Craster's son, who is just a "north of the Wall" version of Sam. 

[Black Crow]

Nah, I still feel that Craster is misunderstood. Sons are precious. Sons will keep their old dad going in his old age; and yet he sacrifices them to keep right by the gods.

And, as I'm suggesting, just as he can cast his "spell" over those women, so they can cast the same "spell" over the wights. Craster has a taste for mutton and breeds shepherds.

[LordImp]

What about those demons rumored to be in Shadowlands ? I know im asking hard questions but im just interested to hear your guesses.

[wolfmaid7]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, I still feel that Craster is misunderstood. Sons are precious. Sons will keep their old dad going in his old age; and yet he sacrifices them to keep right by the gods.

And, as I'm suggesting, just as he can cast his "spell" over those women, so they can cast the same "spell" over the wights. Craster has a taste for mutton and breeds shepherds.

I'm not disputing that...I'm saying "he" just didn't decide one day " i'm going to sacrifice my sons" Someone taught him to do this.They brainwashed him into thinkng this is what will make him right with the gods and godly.

[shizett]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its also worth remembering that Mel knows nothing about them either until that letter arrives from Castle Black. Whatever her eventual master plan for Stannis was, she had no notion at all of heading North until Ser Davos persuaded Stannis it was his duty as King to protect the realm.

I also find this curious and am wondering if we are supposed to question the mundane nature of Iron Throne and whether or not Davos changed magically political landscape of Westeros by convincing Mel and Stannis to move North? It just seems to me that for Stannis to be AAR there is no requirement of him also being the head of state, but Melisandre is clearly pushing him to be the king. Why? Why is there a need for a prophecy figure to have a political position too?

- It might be that is Stannis's win out of the agreement. It just seems to me that for a dutiful man like Stannis saving the world without claiming the crown would be enough, especially in the light of his wife's devotion to R'Hllor.

- or It might seem that Mel thinks Stannis as AAR would save Westeros from Dany and that he would do it better as the King, but he already has DS and all the magical wardings of the castle with it, why would they want to move?

I am thinking that maybe there is some magic to Iron Throne (or one of the swords in it, after all, what better place to hide a special sword other than in the middle of hundreds of them?) which makes it desirable for Stannis to "claim" it? We already have Iron men paying the "iron" price for their belongings, there might be an additional magical side to this. We also know that the throne receives blood sacrifice regularly (people who sit on it get cut), so there might be more to the throne than meets the eye. It might also add an interesting layer to Jaime's "claiming of IT" when Ned saw him in the throne room and what went down between the two men.

Mel continues to cling to those who have a chance at being the head of state: in the North, suddenly she gets interested in Jon and Bran (having visions about them and all). It might just be the case that AAR, whoever that might be, needs a powerful source of magic as backup ( IT in the south, WF in the north), and that Jon and Bran have a chance at being the KitN.

[Matthew.]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Noted, but there's still nothing in there about Craster's boys.

No, but Quaithe does appear to Dany directly after Dany awakens from her dream of destroying the usurpers ice-armored army with dragon fire--and "armor of ice" certainly evokes the white walkers.

For the sake of completion, I accidentally left out another of Quaithe's "remember who you are" comments from ADWD: "'Remember who you are, Daenerys,' the stars whispered in a woman's voice. 'The dragons know. Do you?'"

Finally, for whatever it's worth, the show's presentation of Quaithe only has her interacting with Jorah; during the second encounter, she has him affirm that he will never betray Dany again before agreeing to give him the information he seeks.

[LordImp]

I think the reason for Mel to want Stannis is to be King is Stannis himself , to be King is what Stannis wanted. Im not even sure if Stannis cared about Azor Ahai he just used Mel in his fight to win the throne . 

 

But its interesting why Mel tought Stannis to he AA. Was it because Stannis was Lord of Dragonstone ? Mel clearly has a Secret agenda. I think it's important that Mel is also a shadowbinder in addition to a red priestess . 

[Black Crow]

51 minutes ago, shizett said:

I also find this curious and am wondering if we are supposed to question the mundane nature of Iron Throne and whether or not Davos changed magically political landscape of Westeros by convincing Mel and Stannis to move North? It just seems to me that for Stannis to be AAR there is no requirement of him also being the head of state, but Melisandre is clearly pushing him to be the king. Why? Why is there a need for a prophecy figure to have a political position too?

Not necessarily a matter of prophecy but practicality. A leader has to have something to lead and Mel is realistic enough to know the difference between a lone hero and a warrior king.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

What about those demons rumored to be in Shadowlands ? I know im asking hard questions but im just interested to hear your guesses.

Well again I think that this comes back to what I've been saying about Mel. There are demons conjured or otherwise created by magic all around. The white walkers have no monopoly on the business except in so far as this is a story about Westeros not the mysterious east.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm not disputing that...I'm saying "he" just didn't decide one day " i'm going to sacrifice my sons" Someone taught him to do this.They brainwashed him into thinkng this is what will make him right with the gods and godly.

I don't see it as a matter of brainwashing but rather upbringing. Craster was born to do what he did which is why he bore the curse. 

[Arry'sFleas]

21 hours ago, Mother of Dragons said:

the username is funny

i am glad you like it; chosen in deference to:

All that we ask in heresy is ....., and above all great good humour.

There was a time when GRRM put some humour in his story...it seems  a rare commodity more recently.

21 hours ago, Mother of Dragons said:

Hopefully the mystery reveals itself another way.

right; plenty of scope for dreams to reveal more about Asshai, so you may get your wish!

whilst the author may have said the story will not go to Asshai, IIRC he also never mentioned Dany attending empire ruling 101 in Slaver's bay in his early synopsis.

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't see it as a matter of brainwashing but rather upbringing. Craster was born to do what he did which is why he bore the curse. 

Perhaps 'born to do' is actually 'required to do'.    I'm contemplating whether or not the sons are actually a payment rather than a sacrifice.  Something of a bride price, if you will.   I think that gold bracelet that Craster sports isn't for mere ornamentation or even protection....I think it marks him as a slave.

[House Cambodia]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Quote

"Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."
 

Yes Quaithe is very cryptic but below her cryptic words is her wanting Dany to remember who she is.Which in of itself is weird but that's for another thought.I don't see her as warning Dany against her Dragons she did chastize her for locking them up no? 

Which brings be back to the bolded which is very scary to say the least.Dragons plant no trees indeed,they burn them.Remember your words "fire and blood" .......Yeah Dany isn't going to be a peacemaker.Fire or ice destroy and create the world.They end and bein ages.I've spoken before about certain magical factions creating sympathetic humans which will allow them to come into the new age by surviving the old.Pretty much setting the stage where they can thrive alongside "certain" humans. Maybe Quaithe is also seeking to use powerful tools in order to thrive.

 

I think trees specifically refer to weirwood trees. The original 'crisis' was not so much the First Men invading Westeros as cutting down the trees. The Andals virtually finished the job. Dany and her dragons are the genocial threat to the surviving weirwoods. That is what she is - the ultimate enemy of the weirwoods/COTF/old gods - nature and the balance of life in the North. By extension, as I've previously claimed, the antichrist. And it all emanates from Asshai - fire, bloodmagic, everything that is eveil in Planetos.