Heresy Branch Office E05

[e1kabong]

Here's another lingering question from the White Walker genesis scene: since the Night's King seemingly has an obsidian dagger buried in his chest, will he have the same vulnerabilities as other WWs? It's possible that he can't be killed through any means we've seen thus far. He might be able to stand up to obsidian like a champ (also Valyrian steel if, like I do, you actually believe that the "secret" of it's forging is actually using mechanical properties of silicon, which makes up a lot of the composition of obsidian, to enhance the forging of steel rather than magic). 

So what are we left with? Dragonfire? Comet-metal (Dawn, FTW)?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

More complicated yes, but we've been discussing this outcome on Heresy for some time and this appears to be one of those essential milestones which GRRM has revealed to the mummers. Its too big not to be alhough I certainly agree that the precess and the manner of learning of it will probably be very different in the book - which being said Bran has yet to have an explanation of that weirwood sacrifice at Winterfell

So, that being said it is your contention that George has told the D's that the children did in fact create the WW's as a weapon however it won't go down like that in the books.  How do you think it will go down if you don't mind me asking.  Another thing is how does show Bran know that's the Night('s) King if that name has never been mentioned to him in the show?  

[The Chequered Raven]

4 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

So what are we left with? Dragonfire?

I bet my money on the lizards!

[Eli Stark]

3 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

I bet my money on the lizards!

Probably lizard lions.  The answer was right in front of our face since book 1.  Arya saw them by Moat Cailin.  Meera probably carries a small pet one in her pocket and will pull it out at the most dire, but opportune moment.  And so his watch will end.

[Matthew.]

43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

They are different I know, but the sacrifice took place thousands of years ago and a lot can change. I remain more impressed by the fact that Bran's vision in the book culminated in an ancient sacrifice before the weirwood.

Sure, but the rocky cliffs present also make it unlikely that the site is near Winterfell, yet it seems to be treated as significant, with Bran's later vision showing the army of ice there before he's spotted, which muddles the question of whether or not what we were seeing was in the past or in the present.

To be clear, I'm not discounting the idea of Winterfell being a similar site (in the books, anyway), as I'm really enamored by the idea that the ritual we witnessed is something that was done to Bran the Builder, and is the origin of House Stark's preeminence in the north, and status as Kings of Winter. I'm just exploring other interpretations; for example, I'm curious as to whether or not the shift in the weirwood's appearance - from pale white and lively, to withered and blackened - has any significance to the shift in the NK's allegiance and nature.

8 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

Here's another lingering question from the White Walker genesis scene: since the Night's King seemingly has an obsidian dagger buried in his chest, will he have the same vulnerabilities as other WWs?

If nothing else, he was created on a clear and sunny day, the sort of conditions we might assume are not ideal for the WWs, and the manner of his creation was different from Craster's sons. Despite his appearance, I think he is, in some ways, "more human" than the other WWs, and won't just shatter apart from obsidian.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

Sure, but the rocky cliffs present also make it unlikely that the site is near Winterfell, yet it seems to be treated as significant, with Bran's later vision showing the army of ice there before he's spotted, which muddles the question of whether or not what we were seeing was in the past or in the present.

To be clear, I'm not discounting the idea of Winterfell being a similar site (in the books, anyway), as I'm really enamored by the idea that the ritual we witnessed is something that was done to Bran the Builder, and is the origin of House Stark's preeminence in the north, and status as Kings of Winter. I'm just exploring other interpretations; for example, I'm curious as to whether or not the shift in the weirwood's appearance - from pale white and lively, to withered and blackened - has any significance to the shift in the NK's allegiance and nature.

If nothing else, he was created on a clear and sunny day, the sort of conditions we might assume are not ideal for the WWs, and the manner of his creation was different from Craster's sons. Despite his appearance, I think he is, in some ways, "more human" than the other WWs, and won't just shatter apart from obsidian.

I disagree.  I think that if the Children created that one dude in the show then they created all the WW's, not the wights.  We don't know what Craster's son's turn out to be.  But if obsidian created them it can kill them too.  

[The Chequered Raven]

25 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

If there wasn't proof I wouldn't have suggested it.

We know from the show the Children created the White Walkers. We know in the books they went into hiding right before the Long Night. It adds up quite nicely. 

I would not mix up show and books so easy...

And as I said - possible - but maybe it was different... We have not much facts what happend - Leaf admitted that thy (CoF) created the WW. That they were thought to help fight men (First Men) And as we see, NOW the WW fight Men and Children as well. but we don not know ANYTHING about the reasons, why they fight now against their creators, we do not know when they turned against the Children (maybe right aftrer creation, maybe after the Children broke a promise the made them, maybe there was another reason...)

Feel free to speculate - I do the same! - but we should be carefull with beeing sure...

[RoamingRonin]

It could be important that the Night's King is the original White Walker. There could have been a succession of kings but instead, the original has survived from the beginning. I wonder if we might have a Keystone Army on our hands: 

Quote

A Keystone Army  is an invasion force or army that's seemingly unstoppable, except for one particular weakness in the form of a well protected but very fragile component. It can be an individual soldier, an object or whatever, but if you destroy or tamper with it, the entire army is immediately disabled. 

Kill the Night's King and his army of White Walkers and wights go with him.

[GeorgeIAF]

22 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

Here's another lingering question from the White Walker genesis scene: since the Night's King seemingly has an obsidian dagger buried in his chest, will he have the same vulnerabilities as other WWs? It's possible that he can't be killed through any means we've seen thus far. He might be able to stand up to obsidian like a champ (also Valyrian steel if, like I do, you actually believe that the "secret" of it's forging is actually using mechanical properties of silicon, which makes up a lot of the composition of obsidian, to enhance the forging of steel rather than magic). 

So what are we left with? Dragonfire? Comet-metal (Dawn, FTW)?

I always thought that Dany just going over them with the dragons and bathing them with dragonfire was too easy to get rid of them. Surely more is needed to kill the NK, i'm convinced that the NK will be immune to dragonglass/dragonfire and so on. I think that only Lightbringer (maybe Dawn ?) will be able to hurt him, and the one who will wield it will be the PTWP.

[missingm]

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think you are reaching at all.One of my theories regarding this is that BTB's been body hoping for 8,000yrs and Bran is the next in line for a body snatch.Much like what Bran does with Hodor and Varymur sixskins attempted to do with Thistle.No one would know that it was really them in the bodies of these people walking around.This to me explains why CH's reffered to the 3eyed crow as the Last Greenseer,which would only make sense if we are dealing with one person,be it our Bran or BTB.

So i'm thining BTB was the first human GS and his was a voluntary one.What strikes as strange and maybe they are keeping it vague because they don't know or they do.But has the figure in he tree copt to being Brynden Rivers? When i binged watched the episodes i swore in like episode two he said he's been waiting 1,000 yrs which makes no sense if he's Bloodraven.

I am beginning to think that Bloodraven is Bran. Bran eventually may go back in time only to be trapped there because he stays too long. He is perhaps trying to train his younger self to fix something in the future. When you look at it, BloodRaven and Bran can both only walk in their warging. Could explain why Summer stayed behind to protect Bloodraven / old Bran.

[GeorgeIAF]

39 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

No problem. That idea (ie - Last Hero = Night's King) actually stems from a small, possible hint (as the best tinfoil hat theories do) the first time we see the Night's King in the TV series. When the Last Hero sought the children, he had 12 companions that went with him. The first shot the TV series revealed of the Night's King, he is flanked by 12 other WWs: http://i.imgur.com/7YkBxIp.png. This not only matches the Last Hero tale, but (in total) brings the number on the screen to 13. As per the book, the Night's King was allegedly the 13th Lord Commander.

Although I doubt that these are his original 12 companions, I don't think this numbering in the shot was a coincidence. 

Also, notice how they are all in black in that picture.

[GeorgeIAF]

1 minute ago, missingm said:

I am beginning to think that Bloodraven is Bran. Bran eventually may go back in time only to be trapped there because he stays too long. He is perhaps trying to train his younger self to fix something in the future. When you look at it, BloodRaven and Bran can both only walk in their warging. Could explain why Summer stayed behind to protect Bloodraven / old Bran.

No, just no. Bloodraven is Brynden Rivers, even when you read the books, one of the CoTF almost gives away his identity.

[Clive Bixby]

Does the show give any indication that he is Brynden Rivers, or is he just referred to as the three-eyed crow? 

[RoamingRonin]

20 minutes ago, missingm said:

I am beginning to think that Bloodraven is Bran. Bran eventually may go back in time only to be trapped there because he stays too long. He is perhaps trying to train his younger self to fix something in the future. When you look at it, BloodRaven and Bran can both only walk in their warging. Could explain why Summer stayed behind to protect Bloodraven / old Bran.

But they don't physically go back in time. 

[Carl]

Just had a thought - what if the NK is controlled by the collective consciousness within the Weirnet? The magical obsidian dagger is a kind of control rod.

All the CotF that were killed by the FM etc. that managed to "upload" into the Weirnet would be pretty pissed and may not have been interested in a peace deal as they're technically more Weirwood than CotF now. Their main focus for survival would be to remove any threat to the Weirnet!

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

So, that being said it is your contention that George has told the D's that the children did in fact create the WW's as a weapon however it won't go down like that in the books.  How do you think it will go down if you don't mind me asking.  Another thing is how does show Bran know that's the Night('s) King if that name has never been mentioned to him in the show?  

Presumably its one of the things he's learned while growing from cute little Bran into the tall teenager we now see. As to how GRRM will reveal the connection he's hinted at we obviously don't know, although I really wouldn't be surprised if its in a vision and notwithstanding some of the reservations expressed above I still strongly suspect in the book it will be connected with that Winterfell sacriifice.

[Black Crow]

27 minutes ago, Clive Bixby said:

Does the show give any indication that he is Brynden Rivers, or is he just referred to as the three-eyed crow? 

Just referred to as the three-eyed raven [probably to avoid confusion with the crows of the Nights Watch], the Brynden Blackwood connection isn't mentioned in the mummers version, again presumably to avoid overloading information

[e1kabong]

3 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I always thought that Dany just going over them with the dragons and bathing them with dragonfire was too easy to get rid of them. Surely more is needed to kill them, i'm convinced that the NK will be immune to dragonglass/dragonfire and so on. 

I'm really pulling for Dawn. Since the show killed my favorite pet theory (which is Arthur Dayne is still alive, but exiled to the Night's Watch - still have faith that GRRM might put in in the books), here's another theory about Dawn that ties in it's possible role as a weapon against the Night's King:

Although they've hardly touched on the origin and mythos behind Dawn on the show, here's a summary: Dawn is a sword allegedly forged from a fallen star (comet/meteor). It is under the care of house Dayne and is only wielded when there comes a worthy knight (known as the "Sword of the Morning"), which is relatively rare. The last person to have Dawn is Sir Arthur Dayne, who was killed () at the Tower of Joy fight. 

Just from the description alone, you can see that there are a lot of similarities between Dawn and the legendary sword Excalibur. It's the sword of Arthur that can only be wielded by a "chosen one" and has a white sheen like moonlight (that's in the books only. In the show, it just looks normal. Possibly to hide the importance of it). Tinfoil hat theorists like myself also believe that Dawn may have been the original Lightbringer that helped to end the Long Night. Without getting too far into it, the Long Night mythos from the far East begins with a black stone falling from the sky (Bloodstone Emporer mythology, if you care to research). Therefore, it makes sense that a sword made from a white stone falling from the sky is its counter. 

Now, bringing this back around to what kills the Night's King. If Dawn was the original Lightbringer used to beat back the Night's King during the Long Night, it stands to reason that such a relic would need to be kept safe. Away from the North, lest the Starks (again, assuming the Night's King is a Stark) turn again towards evil. Hence, the Daynes, who are far South. Over time, history becomes myth, Lightbringer becomes Dawn and truth is muddled.

At the Tower of Joy, we literally have a recap of the beginning of the Long Night: A Stark is bested in battle. He is assisted by the "old powers" (The Reeds have strong book connections to the Children's style of magic) who allow him to take a victory through treachery where he could not succeed on his own. This may not just be a repetition of history, but the signal to the Night's King that he can rise once more.

In several fictional works, Excalibur loses some of it's abilities/power when used in treachery. In the 1981 film "Excalibur", Arthur uses the sword to defeat a more skilled Lancelot and is immediately filled with remorse, casting its might aside. In the Dresden Files universe, someone tries to use Excalibur to squelch on a deal they made and it betrays them. Through various non-GoT related work items and interviews, GRRM has knowledge of these two works (talked about Excalibur when putting together a "best fantasy movies" list and has worked with the author of The Dresden Files closely in other projects). 

In the show, they make it very clear that Ned makes the killing blow against Arthur Dayne using his own sword. A cheap kill after a proud knight has been stabbed in the back. Was the Night's King able to sense that the Sword of the Morning has fallen and Lightbringer, one of the only weapons that can stand against him, lessened by treachery? Is this the event that sparked the resurgence of the White Walkers, as the Night's King plans to rise unopposed to conquer once more?

[Clive Bixby]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Just referred to as the three-eyed raven [probably to avoid confusion with the crows of the Nights Watch], the Brynden Blackwood connection isn't mentioned in the mummers version, again presumably to avoid overloading information

So technically (although I don't like it or believe it) the mummer's version could go with the Bran is the three-eyed raven motif to follow up on the time travel elements that have now been introduced.  I'm only bringing this up because they did bring in Jack Bender to shore up the time travel elements, and we know how that went on Lost. 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

I'm really pulling for Dawn. Since the show killed my favorite pet theory (which is Arthur Dayne is still alive, but exiled to the Night's Watch - still have faith that GRRM might put in in the books), here's another theory about Dawn that ties in it's possible role as a weapon against the Night's King:

Another way to resolve that one is if Jon Snow turns out to be the son of Ser Arthur Dayne rather than that Rhaegar Targaryen bloke