Question re: Arya and the Faceless Men

[Forlong the Fat]

Previews show the Waif chasing Arya as if trying to kill her.  This leads to speculation that the Waif is given permission to kill Arya for some sort of disobedience. My question: does that make sense based on what we know about the Faceless Men's ethical rules?  Their biggest rule seems to be you don't kill someone, even if they deserve it, except under their odd transactional rules.  Basically, the price needs to paid either (in the case of Jaqen H'ghar and Arya), in exchange for saving a life or in exchange for an accepted hit contract.  Furthermore, in the books at least, Arya was only ever threatened with being sent away, and then punished with blindness (though this really seems like a tough lesson more than anything).

For those reasons, I find it strange that Arya would be punished with death.  Another possiblity: the Waif is going rogue in some way.  It seems to me that the show has been demonstrating true animus on the Waif's part, rather than simple tough tutoring, but it is unclear where that comes from. 

[Saiyan]

And what will Arya do against the Waif and the other Faceless Men? Her "training" only consisted of being beaten up almost every day, some stick fighting blindfolded and maybe some knowledge about poisons. She really hasn't learn anything important.

[Future Null Infinity]

I'm really happy for the fact that Arya is leaving the FM and going to Westeros, and like the OP said, too many things are confusing, other things :

• When Arya became the Waif's personal vendetta?
• When Jaqen promised the Waif that she can kill Arya?
• King Robert can't afford the FM to kill Danny but a circus actress can?

[Hangatyr]

On 28/05/2016 at 3:37 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

Previews show the Waif chasing Arya as if trying to kill her.  This leads to speculation that the Waif is given permission to kill Arya for some sort of disobedience. My question: does that make sense based on what we know about the Faceless Men's ethical rules?  Their biggest rule seems to be you don't kill someone, even if they deserve it, except under their odd transactional rules.  Basically, the price needs to paid either (in the case of Jaqen H'ghar and Arya), in exchange for saving a life or in exchange for an accepted hit contract.  Furthermore, in the books at least, Arya was only ever threatened with being sent away, and then punished with blindness (though this really seems like a tough lesson more than anything).

For those reasons, I find it strange that Arya would be punished with death.  Another possiblity: the Waif is going rogue in some way.  It seems to me that the show has been demonstrating true animus on the Waif's part, rather than simple tough tutoring, but it is unclear where that comes from. 

I think you're missing another important rule: You can't steal a death from the God of Death. Arya learned this lesson when she saved Jaquen and other two prisioners. After that Jaqe had to kill three people.

With her refusal to kill the actress, Arya stole a death from the God and it's like Jaqen said: "One way or another, a face will be added to the wall". If Arya kills the Waif, will everything be alright?

Anyway, we don't know what price was paid for the assassination. The price is not necessarily monetary, is it?

[Guest]

I am looking forward to Arya killing the Waif with Needle.  I thiink it will even things out.  Arya also seems to know how to make and use faces, hopefully she kills Cersei as Jaime...

[tallTale]

Anyone else notice that Arya was able to defeat the Waif in combat when she was blind? But when she regained her eyesight Arya got wrecked. I wonder if that will play out when they meet again.

[Rex2G]

Arya will obviously succeed in killing the Waif, otherwise the story wouldn't make any sense. On the other hand, I don't have the slightest idea of how she will manage against the kindly man. If he is as skilled as the Jaqen H'Ghar we know from Harrenhal, she doesn't stand a chance. Maybe he will let her go with some mystical many-faced God explanation? Maybe he will recognize her true purpose, of which we're still not aware at this point? 

 

[TickTak7]

Arya's plot is just downright atrocious. 

Serious question - what was the point of having Arya stay with the Faceless Men for all of season 5 and half of season 6? 

What has she learned? 
What has she accomplished? 

How has her storyline improved in anyway?

She's literally done NOTHING in this story arc, except:

1) Kill Meryn Trant

2) Get her ass kicked by the Waif. 

It's ridiculous. 

So now she's left, what has she gained? She isn't some master assassin. She doesn't have access to the Hall of Faces. She didn't steal any faces to use on her own. 

Just nonsense at this point. 

There will be a showdown, she will kill the Waif, and then that will be it - an entire season and a half of Arya story just wasted. 

[Rex2G]

I don't think that the FM arc will stop with the death of the Waif. I mean, in the show as well as in the books, Arya's purpose is probably much more important than becoming an interchangeable soulless mystical assassin, and I suppose that it has something to do with Bran and Jon. Maybe she will somehow be able to convince the FM that their role is not to kill Arya, but to help her? I'm just guessing here, but it seems to me that the FM have still a big part to play in the events too come. Otherwise, why indeed spend so much time introducing them? It would make no sense. 

[House Toad]

24 minutes ago, Rex2G said:

Arya will obviously succeed in killing the Waif, otherwise the story wouldn't make any sense. On the other hand, I don't have the slightest idea of how she will manage against the kindly man. If he is as skilled as the Jaqen H'Ghar we know from Harrenhal, she doesn't stand a chance. Maybe he will let her go with some mystical many-faced God explanation? Maybe he will recognize her true purpose, of which we're still not aware at this point? 

 

She will do a Dany, destroying the temple of many faces empowered by her needle. Later joining the murmurer troop where she try to enact all the revenges of her prayers learning nothing. Remember Jaqen was already named, so no matter how skilled, he will be dead. So should she from the gift of the temple's waters and the hordes Braavos will unleash upon her lack of faces, but don't worry the murmurers guild will craft her with some additional talents...

[Morgana Lannister]

9 minutes ago, House Toad said:

She will do a Dany, destroying the temple of many faces empowered by her needle. Later joining the murmurer troop where she try to enact all the revenges of her prayers learning nothing. Remember Jaqen was already named, so no matter how skilled, he will be dead. So should she from the gift of the temple's waters and the hordes Braavos will unleash upon her lack of faces, but don't worry the murmurers guild will craft her with some additional talents...

I take you are being sarcastic lol but my honest opinion is that I would love to see that damn House of Black and White totally be destroyed a la Dany; that would rock!  and no, not that anyone is thinking that but... not to show female power with yet another femme doing this but because I don't think they are any better or any less sinister than those guys with the blue lips in Quarth lol

[The Handsome Man]

I am not quite as frustrated as you, but I agree her story arc in Braavos has been disjointed and hard to reconcile with the books.  I would have liked to see her develop a bit more, as she has in the books, as a smooth, intelligent, well trained killer. Even when she is driven by vengeance, as with Raff in the Mercy chapter, she remains cool and, almost terrifyingly, in control.  Contrast that with the berserk way she dispatched Trant last season.  This is just a completely different character who does not seem to have advanced much at all in this regard. 

In the books, if she goes back to Westoros and poisons all the Freys or infiltrates Kings Landing to kill Cersai (or both), it will be believable and satisfying to read, if you are invested in her character (I loved the Mercy chapter). It will seem like a tremendous leap for her to accomplish that in the show, assuming something like that is the end-game for her.  If so, hopefully they advance her skill set further in the next few episodes.

And I agree with the comment above re: the Faceless Men in the show:  on the one hand they are this mystical cult of assassins yet an understudy actress, visiting the city, can hire them?  Sure, she may have paid a different "price", but at least take 1-2 lines of dialogue to explain that.

[Pies are coming]

1 hour ago, tallTale said:

Anyone else notice that Arya was able to defeat the Waif in combat when she was blind? But when she regained her eyesight Arya got wrecked. I wonder if that will play out when they meet again.

Arya has a sword, the Waif doesn't. That's about it.

3 minutes ago, The Handsome Man said:

the Faceless Men in the show:  on the one had they are this mystical cult of assassins yet an understudy actress, visiting the city, can hire them?  Sure, she may have paid a different "price, but at least take 1-2 lines of dialogue to explain that.

Well, if they are so expensive not even a king can afford them, then they wouldn't be in business. It may be that their fee is adjusted to the customer, so richer customers pay more.

It may also be that Baelish didn't want Dany to die at that point, so he spoke against hiring a FM for that reason, and not because of the expense.

[Greg B]

Am I the only one who thinks Jaqen already knows Arya is going to kill the Waif? I think he's fine with it -- actually, I think it's the Waif who is in the process of learning a hard lesson. Why would Jaqen "promise" to let the Waif kill Arya if she failed? That's a setup. When he's giving the Waif "permission," Jaqen says something like, "It's a shame. She has many gifts." Maybe it's just me, but "gifts" is a loaded word for the FM. It reminded me of Melisandre seeing the darkness in Arya, and in the darkness all the eyes she would close forever. I think Jaqen recognizes Arya as a servant of the Many-Faced God and her trials were just to determine whether she would serve Him as "no one" or as Arya Stark. She'll serve either way. Valar dohaeris.

[Morgana Lannister]

4 minutes ago, The Handsome Man said:

I am not quite as frustrated as you, but I agree her story arc in Braavos has been disjointed and hard to reconcile with the books.  I would have liked to see her develop a bit more, as she has in the books, as a smooth, intelligent, well trained killer. Even when she is driven by vengeance, as with Raff in the Mercy chapter, she remains cool and, almost terrifyingly, in control.  Contrast that with the berserk way she dispatched Trant last season.  This is just a completely different character who does not seem to have advanced much at all in this regard. 

In the books, if she goes back to Westoros and poisons all the Freys or infiltrates Kings Landing to kill Cersai (or both), it will be believable and satisfying to read, if you are invested in her character (I loved the Mercy chapter). It will seem like a tremendous leap for her to accomplish that in the show, assuming something like that is the end-game for her.  If so, hopefully they advance her skill set further in the next few episodes.

And I agree with the comment above re: the Faceless Men in the show:  on the one hand they are this mystical cult of assassins yet an understudy actress, visiting the city, can hire them?  Sure, she may have paid a different "price", but at least take 1-2 lines of dialogue to explain that.

What price did the young actress paid intrigues me too and my guess is that this shall be revealed either in the show, the books or both (even if in the books is through a different sub plot).  Guessing that maybe she saved someone herself, hence they owe her a debt like what happened with Arya at Harrenhall, but maybe this is too easy and simplistic...

[Hangatyr]

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Cost_of_Faceless_Men

[The Handsome Man]

I get that the understudy could hire the FM by paying some "price" proportional to her standing and the victim's standing.  I just would have liked a line or two on the point -- but this is minor, minor quibbling.  My main gripe is Arya's skill set right now: walk in and pour some poison in a bottle, or splash some on an oyster (last season).  Not much training needed to do that.  But in the books, she is a creative, fluid operator -- and that's not just fun to read, it goes deep into her character development.  I thought that was where she was headed after she coolly dispatched Polliver at the beginning of season 4, and would like to see more of that in the show.

[Morgana Lannister]

15 minutes ago, Hangatyr said:

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Cost_of_Faceless_Men

That sounds sensible, however when Arya saved 3 people hence taking them from the God of Death, she was allowed 3 lives regardless of who these people were, what their status was and how difficult it would be to get to them, so I am still wondering... does anyone who save a life (or does it have to be the life of a FM?) entitled to chose one life of their choice in return?

[WolfQueenArya]

I think Jaqen has a hidden agenda. The Waid shouldn't have a grudge against Arya and want to kill her. She will be getting a rather sharp lesson. I am frustrated with how the show adapted the FM scenes, which they didn't. Not really. They showed Arya training and getting stronger. I bet she will incorporate some of that fighting training with her water dancing. I don't know anymore...

i am excited to find out and I hope the pay off and the FM story makes sense after this season is over. I guess we will see in the following episodes. 

[TickTak7]

52 minutes ago, Rex2G said:

I don't think that the FM arc will stop with the death of the Waif. I mean, in the show as well as in the books, Arya's purpose is probably much more important than becoming an interchangeable soulless mystical assassin, and I suppose that it has something to do with Bran and Jon. Maybe she will somehow be able to convince the FM that their role is not to kill Arya, but to help her? I'm just guessing here, but it seems to me that the FM have still a big part to play in the events too come. Otherwise, why indeed spend so much time introducing them? It would make no sense. 

I'm going to guess that you are right - the Faceless Men have to play a much more important role. Otherwise, you made the same point I did - why the hell would she spend so much time there? Such a waste. 

It's hard to see just how Arya gets the Faceless Men on her side, especially with them being out to kill her - normally, attempted murder kind of kills relationships, etc. 

But yeah - at this point, the payoff for Arya's storyline just hasn't been there at all. It's a whole lot of cryptic, boring talking, interrupted with a generic training montage, building up to a fight with a character no one really knows or understands.