Joff's death

[finger]

It's deja vu all over again.

I was rereading the whole episode of the Purple Wedding, and taking some catches.

LF provided the poison. He even confesses it to Sansa, but in a misleading way. He makes it look as if it were his only idea, and he leaves unsaid that Dontos put the poison in the cup. He tries Sansa to think that it was all for her sake, but we know better. Of course, LF wouldn't charge that task to drunkard Dontos, so that he made a blotch of it.  Who did it, then?

Tyrion is the POV of the murder, and there's nothing in his mussings that gives him away. Rather the opposite. Besides, Sansa didn't know she was bearing poison, and Tyrion wouldn't plot with LF, nor LF would confide himself to Tyrion for that. Obviously, Grrm wants us readers to think about it.

First, who had contact with the poison? Shae put the web on Sansa's head, and Lady Olenna tidied it up carefully.

Second, let's see what they did. When Joff was buggering Tyrion, Margaery went behind with Lady Olenna leanning on her cane. He had just made his cup refilled when Lord Tywin summoned him to slice the pie. Those were the facts, and Tyrion doesn't notice any more. As it's told, Lady Olenna had the time to put the "gemstone" in the cup. Margaery has another sword brought. To sum up:

- LF gave the poison to Sansa through Dontos

- Shae put the poison son Sansa's head

- Olenna had the chance to pick the poison up

- Tywin called Joff so that he leave his cup unattended

- Olenna had the chance to put the poison in the cup

- Margaery delayed the cutting of the pie so that the poison had the time to solve

Add Olenna's comments all the way through, and the strange Tywin's coldness, and my take is that they were all in the plot. After all, it was LF who bartered the arrangement between Lannisters and Tyrells.

I know, it's stale bread, but Martin will not release the sodding book, and I'm getting sick of some arguments.

 

[norwaywolf123]

good list

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't think LF ever insinuates Dontos put the poison in the cup, he insinuates Olenna did by asking Sansa who touched her hair net.  IMO, it is more likely Olenna passed the poison to Margery because Margery is the only person who could ensure she did not die as well.

Any other theory I have ever seen does not eliminate the risk of Margery dying.

[The Wull]

I really don't think it went beyond Littlefinger, Dontos, and Olenna.  Margaery probably knew generally not to drink the wine.  The idea that Tywin was in on it is insane.  I also don't believe Shae was in on it.  Why would they trust a whore with that kind of secret?  These kinds of plots are prone to leaks if too many people are involved.  It makes sense to drastically cut down on moving parts and possible slip-ups.

[finger]

^There were at least two Kingsguards with the king everytime, so putting the poison in the cup was not that easy. Margaery probably would be noticed.

Tywin called Joff when Olenna was besides the cup, to cut the pie. That would draw everybody's attention.

I think the opportunity is clear, the question was who was aware. From the start it's known that the Tyrells suspected of Joff.  Otoh, Tywin had awarded him a sharp lesson, and a Lannister always pays his debts. Of course, Grrm has decided not to be too explicit, so the details can be argued.

[Ygrain]

A technical comment:  it is highly unlikely that Olenna personally put the poison in the wine. It has been pointed out repeatedly how small she is. The chalice was big and so far from the edge of the table that Tyrion had to climb his chair to reach it. This, IMHO, implies a person of normal height, and it couldn't be Margaery because as a bride, she would have been watched by everyone. During the cutting of the pie, Leonette or Garlan who were seated right next to Tyrion would have the best opportunity.

Another likely co-conspirator would be Butterbumps, with his talent for throwing objects.

[finger]

^She might have handed it to Garlan, I concede. It seems that Loras was also nearby. Margaery had said that she counted on him to defend her from Joff, and it'd add some irony. I'm trying to cling to the facts as they're told and to make up as less as I can, but it's feasible that Olenna had some help from her family.

As for Butterbumps, I'd say it wasn't a throw but a slam dunk.

[Ygrain]

35 minutes ago, finger said:

^She might have handed it to Garlan, I concede. It seems that Loras was also nearby. Margaery had said that she counted on him to defend her from Joff, and it'd add some irony. I'm trying to cling to the facts as they're told and to make up as less as I can, but it's feasible that Olenna had some help from her family.

As for Butterbumps, I'd say it wasn't a throw but a slam dunk.

I wouldn't let Leonette off the hook just yet. Mind you, the Tyrell ladies seem to be a closely knit bunch, Olenna doesn't seem to think of males very highly, and Leonette is closer to the cup - the seating order is Sansa, Tyrion, Leonette, Garlan (not sure from which side to count but it doesn't really matter), and since Tyrion muses that the chalice was placed almost in Sansa's lap (a hyperbole, or else he wouldn't have to climb the chair to reach it), it had to be placed somewhere between Tyrion and Sansa, rather than Tyrion and Leonette, or else Tyrion would wonder how Sansa might have reached it

Loras is at no point mentioned as being around, so I don't think he should be at our list of suspects; moreover, Olenna thinks that he is good only for swordwaving or something like that. Plus, he is Kingsguard and still idealistic in some respect, he wouldn't poison his king. On the other hand, Garlan is family, Olenna never criticises him... I'd hate it to be him but he is a very likely suspect.

ETA: Oh, and I should throw in my favourite:

I think that several people were in on the scheme because there was no way of planning in advance when the best opportunity would arise - the cutting of the pie was certainly convenient but the chalice would have been left on the main dais, before Cersei, Tywin etc., so Olenna would have to: 1) pass the poison to someone and signal him "now", and 2) signal Margaery not to drink. I believe that the signal was Olenna's mention of the "Rains of Castamere", which, at a Lannister wedding, is a totally inconspicuous remark, and at the same time, it is a little payback to Tywin for his involvement in the Red Wedding.

[norwaywolf123]

Joffrey a innocent boy wronged by the world RIP

[finger]

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I wouldn't let Leonette off the hook just yet. Mind you, the Tyrell ladies seem to be a closely knit bunch, Olenna doesn't seem to think of males very highly, and Leonette is closer to the cup - the seating order is Sansa, Tyrion, Leonette, Garlan (not sure from which side to count but it doesn't really matter), and since Tyrion muses that the chalice was placed almost in Sansa's lap (a hyperbole, or else he wouldn't have to climb the chair to reach it), it had to be placed somewhere between Tyrion and Sansa, rather than Tyrion and Leonette, or else Tyrion would wonder how Sansa might have reached it

Loras is at no point mentioned as being around, so I don't think he should be at our list of suspects; moreover, Olenna thinks that he is good only for swordwaving or something like that. Plus, he is Kingsguard and still idealistic in some respect, he wouldn't poison his king. On the other hand, Garlan is family, Olenna never criticises him... I'd hate it to be him but he is a very likely suspect.

ETA: Oh, and I should throw in my favourite:

I think that several people were in on the scheme because there was no way of planning in advance when the best opportunity would arise - the cutting of the pie was certainly convenient but the chalice would have been left on the main dais, before Cersei, Tywin etc., so Olenna would have to: 1) pass the poison to someone and signal him "now", and 2) signal Margaery not to drink. I believe that the signal was Olenna's mention of the "Rains of Castamere", which, at a Lannister wedding, is a totally inconspicuous remark, and at the same time, it is a little payback to Tywin for his involvement in the Red Wedding.

In sum, Olenna took the poison and the Tyrells put it in the chalice.

There's something to say about it. Let's see who took a part:

- Mace Tyrell gave Joff a cumbersome chalice, easy to be left aside

- Littlefinger hired two dwarfs so that Joff were well aware of his uncle Imp

- Tywin called Joff when he had posed the cup on Tyrion's side of the table. Remembering Olenna (the cheese is served when I say it's served), his summons were most convenient.

It was difficult to plan the last detail, but they could expect that Joff would go to Tyrion, and he wouldn't carry his huge cup all along. Then, Tywin acted. There can be players, pieces and pawns, the question telling one from another. LF had bartered a deal between Tyrells and Tywin, what were the clauses? I'd say only Cersei could stand Joff, and not always.

[Ygrain]

51 minutes ago, finger said:

In sum, Olenna took the poison and the Tyrells put it in the chalice.

There's something to say about it. Let's see who took a part:

- Mace Tyrell gave Joff a cumbersome chalice, easy to be left aside

- Littlefinger hired two dwarfs so that Joff were well aware of his uncle Imp

- Tywin called Joff when he had posed the cup on Tyrion's side of the table. Remembering Olenna (the cheese is served when I say it's served), his summons were most convenient.

It was difficult to plan the last detail, but they could expect that Joff would go to Tyrion, and he wouldn't carry his huge cup all along. Then, Tywin acted. There can be players, pieces and pawns, the question telling one from another. LF had bartered a deal between Tyrells and Tywin, what were the clauses? I'd say only Cersei could stand Joff, and not always.

Minus the Tywin part, I speculated more or less the same: that the dwarf jousting was there exactly for the purpose to create a public drama between Joff and Tyrion because it was a safe bet that neither would shut up. IMHO, LF intended Tyrion to be the fall guy since the very beginning, or at least attempted to create an opportunity for Tyrion to frame himself. The thing is, were the Tyrells planning that, as well? Supposedly, GRRM said that Tyrells just wanted to pass it all off as choking on the pie and never expected Cersei to immediately scream "poison", but I may be misremembering or GRRM was evasive on this. If the Tyrells were on the plan, I'd say that Margaery, with all that whispering in Joff's ear, was in a perfect position to goad Joffrey into some incident involving one ugly dwarf and a cup of wine.

I don't believe that Tywin was involved because if there was a Lannister whom he could not stand, it was Tyrion, and Tyrion wqould be Tywin's target number 1 if he ever decided to do some cleanup in the family. Therefore, no, Tywin wouldn't go against his own grandson unless he had dealt with Tyrion first.

[CJ McLannister]

I don't want to implicate Garlan.  He seems to be one of the only truly decent people in this whole damned series.

[finger]

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Minus the Tywin part, I speculated more or less the same: that the dwarf jousting was there exactly for the purpose to create a public drama between Joff and Tyrion because it was a safe bet that neither would shut up. IMHO, LF intended Tyrion to be the fall guy since the very beginning, or at least attempted to create an opportunity for Tyrion to frame himself. The thing is, were the Tyrells planning that, as well? Supposedly, GRRM said that Tyrells just wanted to pass it all off as choking on the pie and never expected Cersei to immediately scream "poison", but I may be misremembering or GRRM was evasive on this. If the Tyrells were on the plan, I'd say that Margaery, with all that whispering in Joff's ear, was in a perfect position to goad Joffrey into some incident involving one ugly dwarf and a cup of wine.

I don't believe that Tywin was involved because if there was a Lannister whom he could not stand, it was Tyrion, and Tyrion wqould be Tywin's target number 1 if he ever decided to do some cleanup in the family. Therefore, no, Tywin wouldn't go against his own grandson unless he had dealt with Tyrion first.

Of course, Margaery only had to tell Joff to leave his uncle be.

And then Tywin. There's no evidence, I know, but he's too cold in the middle of that turmoil of wedding, and happens to call Joff in the very moment he has to. Immediately after that he receives the punishment of the kinslayers: Jaime puts him down and Tyrion kills him. He cares for his family, but precisely, he fears that Joff will destroy it. At first, he thinks the can be taught, but then he goes too wild and Tywin gives up. Tyrion doesn't matter, Tywin had Jaime for Casterly Rock and Joff for the Iron Throne, but they fail him.

[Hugorfonics]

Ive long assumed that the pigeon pie was poisonous, not the wine. And Tyrion was the target that evening, not Joffrey.

[Fox of House McCloud]

I think the largest part of Tyrion being the target is simply that Tyrion set himself up - continually talking back to, insulting, and even striking the King. Give drunken Joffrey a few nudges towards humiliating Tyrion (something he already wants to do) and it sets it all up perfectly. Why look much further when Tyrion already appears so extremely guilty?

[finger]

After a little more reading, I come back to the topic.

The main suspects for everybody are Sansa and Tyrion, but it's known from themselves than none of them took a hand in killing Joffrey.

LF confess to be the mastermind and tells Sansa how she wore the poison and Lady Olenna took it from her hairnet. No POV really knows who put the poison in the calice, but she must have had some help, being so short. I guess Margaery should know of it, so that she didn't drink from the cup after the wine was poisoned, but I don't it she put it in herself. Anyway, poison is a woman's weapon.

The question is if Tywin was involved, as some details hint. I think the huge rewards to LF also included this service. I'll elaborate later on.

[CJ McLannister]

I can see where Tywin would recognize the benefit of knocking off Joffrey, and we know he has no moral qualms about killing people at weddings, but I'm not convinced.  If Tywin was willing to kill a king, why not Aerys who was dangerously insane and had personally offended Tywin?  Why not Robert?  I think maybe Tywin had some latent respect for the crown, regardless of who was wearing it.

[WSmith84]

On 5/30/2016 at 6:17 PM, Ygrain said:

I don't believe that Tywin was involved because if there was a Lannister whom he could not stand, it was Tyrion, and Tyrion wqould be Tywin's target number 1 if he ever decided to do some cleanup in the family. Therefore, no, Tywin wouldn't go against his own grandson unless he had dealt with Tyrion first.

I agree, but also, if Tywin wanted Joffrey dead he would have had it done quietly. A hunting accident, a fall etc. He wouldn't have him murdered at what is supposed to be a demonstration of Lannister power and supremacy.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 29 maggio 2016 at 10:18 PM, The Wull said:

  The idea that Tywin was in on it is insane.  

100% agreed

[Knight of the Hungry Cow]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

I agree, but also, if Tywin wanted Joffrey dead he would have had it done quietly. A hunting accident, a fall etc. He wouldn't have him murdered at what is supposed to be a demonstration of Lannister power and supremacy.

Agreed. A man like Tywin would do everything in his power to insure that an event like this would never happen at such a public location. The Red Wedding was different. That was much more of a show for Stark/Tully/Frey power. The Purple Wedding was entirely Lannister, and for that, Tywin would never choose it as the time to strike.

Besides, regardless how insane Joffrey was, Tywin was essentially the most powerful man in the realm by being the Regent. He had no reason to off him yet, even if he would get the same benefits with Tommen.