Southron Conspiracy: would Aerys have been overthrown anyway even if he was not mad?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

5 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Tywin paid of the crowns debt from his own pockets, reconciled the crown and the Iron Bank, kept Aerys from draining the treasury and fighting an idiotic war, the fact that it is overflowing when Robert inherits probably has a lot to do with the man who supposedly shits gold. Tywin can't cure Aerys insanity so not sure what you think he could of done to prevent the coming events, a man can only take so much shit before he has enough. Maybe the rebellion had more to do with Aerys, Rhaegar, and Brandon being complete morons than the previous Hand.

Egg and Jaehaerys resolved the Blackfyre crisis, Tywin got the benefits. Nor did he have any trouble with a rebelling Faith, the Dance of Dragons or the invasion of Dorne. Being Hand was never as easy as during Tywin's tenure.

Tywin rolled back Egg's reforms, getting a lot of goodwill - for weakening the IT and the peasantry.

Tywin's tax policy favored KL, Oldtown and Lannisport - and ruined the Crownlands, the prime example being Duskendale. Long-term financial ruin for the IT.

Tywin did not act in regards to the Starks, Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons forming the strongest power block in the history of the Seven Kingdoms.

Basically, Tywin got a perfect kingdom and poured gasoline on it, wiith Aerys and Rhaegar playing with fire. And he left just months before they dropped the spark straight into the biggest heap of combustibles Tywin made.

[Boarsbane]

8 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Egg and Jaehaerys resolved the Blackfyre crisis, Tywin got the benefits. Nor did he have any trouble with a rebelling Faith, the Dance of Dragons or the invasion of Dorne. Being Hand was never as easy as during Tywin's tenure.

Tywin rolled back Egg's reforms, getting a lot of goodwill - for weakening the IT and the peasantry.

Tywin's tax policy favored KL, Oldtown and Lannisport - and ruined the Crownlands, the prime example being Duskendale. Long-term financial ruin for the IT.

Tywin did not act in regards to the Starks, Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons forming the strongest power block in the history of the Seven Kingdoms.

Basically, Tywin got a perfect kingdom and poured gasoline on it, wiith Aerys and Rhaegar playing with fire. And he left just months before they dropped the spark straight into the biggest heap of combustibles Tywin made.

Good for them, what does that have to do with Tywin?

He strengthened the nobility, clearly didn't have too bad an effect as people remember Aerys' reign fondly. 

So what? The IT finances are fine until Robert and Jon Arryn get a hold of the treasury, the rebels were the financial ruin of the IT, despite fighting a war Aerys left the treasury full, he doesn't seem like the type to have raised the money himself and we know Tywin bailed him out earlier.

What exactly is he supposed to do? He can't order them to break off the betrothals and if he could Aerys was just as likely to overrule him out of pure spite not even realizing what's happening. If they rise up he can crush them, you seem to be forgetting how divided those regions were even with just cause for war. Also, how the hell could he predict Aerys would do what he did, or even Rhaegar for that matter. I mean Aerys disliked Tywin a lot more than those two and he never tried to kill him. It took a completely unforeseeable event to occur for the rebels to finally rebel. 

Perfect kingdom? It wasn't a mess but this is clearly just a weak attempt to undermine Tywin. He got a jealous and unstable king and a kingdom in debt, both of which he managed remarkably well considering. If Tywin had ordered Rickard to break off his betrothals you would call him an idiot for messing with the supposed most powerful man in Westeros, so what exactly should Tywin of done, take Lyanna and Cat's virginity himself so Brandon and Robert don't want them? Now I know he's a pretty good looking guy but I don't think that would work.  Please explain how Tywin poured gasoline on the kingdom? You seem to expect him to have done something we have no reason to believe he can. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, they were his immediate predecessors...

Bad for the king, bad for the peasants.

The IT is living on savings alone, because Tywin ruined it's income.

Politics. That stuff people ruling something for twenty years are supposed to do. None of the guys or gals involved in the marriages were born when Tywin got the job.

Please tell me any time when the Seven Kingdoms were in better shape, with better prospects, than immediately after Jaehaerys' death. If Tywin can't do what about 250 years of various Hands managed to do, he's clearly pretty lousy at the job.

[Boarsbane]

4 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Well, they were his immediate predecessors...

Bad for the king, bad for the peasants.

The IT is living on savings alone, because Tywin ruined it's income.

Politics. That stuff people ruling something for twenty years are supposed to do. None of the guys or gals involved in the marriages were born when Tywin got the job.

Please tell me any time when the Seven Kingdoms were in better shape, with better prospects, than immediately after Jaehaerys' death. If Tywin can't do what about 250 years of various Hands managed to do, he's clearly pretty lousy at the job.

His job isn't to please the peasants or the king. 

Prove it, the crown treasury is overflowing after a war so unless you think Tywin just threw his own money in it as a parting gift when Aerys dismissed him it was clearly still producing.

So no suggestion as to what you actually think he could of done. They weren't a threat just for existing, now if Rickard showed some interest in the IT it would be different but it looks like Rickard and Hoster were just grasping for more power, which was probably the case with no interest in the IT. 

Pretty much all of Jaeherys I reign but you are ignoring Aerys tried to start a war but Tywin talked him down. What does the last line even mean? He kept the realm at peace for 20 years, things didn't fall apart until Aerys forced him into resignation, and no Rickard and Hoster being power hungry individuals, Rhaegar and Brandon being morons, and Aerys being insane had nothing to do with Tywin.  Blame Rickard and Aerys for raising two idiots as heirs.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The effects of any policy are delayed. They don't show up immediately. That's all there is to it. The effects experienced under Tywin's administration were caused by Egg and Jaehaerys, the effects experienced under Merryweather, Connington and Arryn's administration were caused by Tywin.

[Boarsbane]

28 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

The effects of any policy are delayed. They don't show up immediately. That's all there is to it. The effects experienced under Tywin's administration were caused by Egg and Jaehaerys, the effects experienced under Merryweather, Connington and Arryn's administration were caused by Tywin.

You mean their debt he had to repay with his own gold? Yea, I bet he was really thankful...

This view is completely unsupported by what we actually see in the text, if Tywin's policy was so bad then why would Arryn continue it? We see Robert's excessive spending and most likely Littlefinger embezzling are the reason the treasury is running dry, I can't remember a single character implying Tywin's policy was so ruinous but maybe you are smarter than the author and everyone in the novels.

[bent branch]

3 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

His job isn't to please the peasants or the king. 

Prove it, the crown treasury is overflowing after a war so unless you think Tywin just threw his own money in it as a parting gift when Aerys dismissed him it was clearly still producing.

So no suggestion as to what you actually think he could of done. They weren't a threat just for existing, now if Rickard showed some interest in the IT it would be different but it looks like Rickard and Hoster were just grasping for more power, which was probably the case with no interest in the IT. 

Pretty much all of Jaeherys I reign but you are ignoring Aerys tried to start a war but Tywin talked him down. What does the last line even mean? He kept the realm at peace for 20 years, things didn't fall apart until Aerys forced him into resignation, and no Rickard and Hoster being power hungry individuals, Rhaegar and Brandon being morons, and Aerys being insane had nothing to do with Tywin.  Blame Rickard and Aerys for raising two idiots as heirs.

Actually, Tywin's ONLY job was to please the king. This is the reason that so many people cannot seem to understand that any talk about Tywin truly ruling the kingdom was pure shit. The only way Tywin could have truly run the kingdom was if Aerys didn't care like Robert. However, TWOIAF proved that Aerys at no point failed to take an interest in the running of the country. Therefore, there was no way for Tywin to be truly running things. I don't understand why people fail to understand this. Robert mostly let Jon Arryn run things while he was busy drinking and whoring and there wasn't people running around saying it was truly Jon Arryn who ruled. Whenever Robert decided anything he wanted to happen in his kingdom it happened, even if it was a bad idea. The reason it was important for Aerys and Tywin to be such good friends was to explain why Aerys put up with Tywin's shit for so long, not why Tywin put up with Aerys.

I don't know why the concept that Aerys was king is so hard to understand. Maybe it is a modern mindset that can't wrap itself around the idea of a king. Anyway, the idea that Tywin was really in charge and that his job entailed anything other than pleasing Aerys is blatantly ridiculous and should tip people off that everything we've been told about Aerys and Tywin is very, very suspect.

[SeanF]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 2:40 AM, nicephorus_phocas said:

If the Southern conspiracy is true, would the Targaryens have been overthrown anyway even if Aerys were not mad? Were the conspirators planning to turn Rhaegar into their puppet? 

I think there is good reason to believe that Aegon V had made the Targaryens dangerously unpopular among many of the nobility.  Which is sad, because Aegon's intentions were excellent.  We don't know the exact nature of his reforms, but they probably benefitted his people overall.  But the people who felt they were losing out were in a position to thwart him.

My own view is that the marriage alliances that were being forged between Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons were intended (at the very least) to build up a power block that could thwart the Targaryens.  A less paranoid monarch than Aerys II would surely have been worried about what was happening.  Of course, the fact that Aerys was increasingly mad and vicious could only have deepened the suspicions that many of the nobility had.

 

 

[Boarsbane]

7 hours ago, bent branch said:

Actually, Tywin's ONLY job was to please the king. This is the reason that so many people cannot seem to understand that any talk about Tywin truly ruling the kingdom was pure shit. The only way Tywin could have truly run the kingdom was if Aerys didn't care like Robert. However, TWOIAF proved that Aerys at no point failed to take an interest in the running of the country. Therefore, there was no way for Tywin to be truly running things. I don't understand why people fail to understand this. Robert mostly let Jon Arryn run things while he was busy drinking and whoring and there wasn't people running around saying it was truly Jon Arryn who ruled. Whenever Robert decided anything he wanted to happen in his kingdom it happened, even if it was a bad idea. The reason it was important for Aerys and Tywin to be such good friends was to explain why Aerys put up with Tywin's shit for so long, not why Tywin put up with Aerys.

I don't know why the concept that Aerys was king is so hard to understand. Maybe it is a modern mindset that can't wrap itself around the idea of a king. Anyway, the idea that Tywin was really in charge and that his job entailed anything other than pleasing Aerys is blatantly ridiculous and should tip people off that everything we've been told about Aerys and Tywin is very, very suspect.

Yes you often state this but never provide any quotes or anything at all to support this minority view other than to act like I'm some sort of idiot by repeatedly saying you can't understand why people believe Aerys could of been an absentee king like Robert. The only way your beliefs gain any traction is if everything we've read so far regarding the situation is lies. I'm sure you think some reveal will come in the next book that proves Aerys was a good king but that's extremely unlikely, Barristan was with him to the end and if GRRM wanted the impression people were wrong about Aerys that would be the man to give it. When Aerys did take interest in running the kingdom (bringing the Titan to it's knees, Duskendale) bad things usually happened so it's good he mostly stayed out. And if Aerys indeed played such a strong roll in ruling why would he let Tywin strengthen the nobility and undo Egg's edicts? 

No one is claiming Aerys wasn't king, just that Tywin did most of the actual ruling. When the Baratheon brothers come to visit they see Tywin and believe he is the king up until Steffon tells them otherwise, what do you think the point of that story is? It's yet another indication that Tywin was the true power, people, nobles at least, around Westeros even at the time seemed to realize this and it clearly pissed Aerys off. Why is it you think Aerys was so aggressive towards Tywin? It's because his inferiority complex towards Tywin, it's actually quite sad he feels the need to run his supposed friend down and make callous remarks about his wife and grope her. Tywin got the respect and the woman that Aerys wanted and Aerys couldn't stand it, but Tywin was also his friend and so they managed to coexist for 20 years but let's not act like Aerys was the one putting up with Tywin's shit. I mean seriously this asshole supposedly says the Gods are humbling Tywin after the love of Tywin's life dies in childbirth, what kind of friend does that?

[Lord Varys]

There was no conspiracy to depose the Targaryens.

If there had been, knowledge of this would have survived their fall and the kingdoms would have fractured again under the Baratheon reign. But there are no hints whatsoever that any of the great houses had any intentions to abolish central rule.

Until 278 AC Steffon Baratheon was Lord of Storm's End, and he was a first cousin of Aerys II Targaryen, and his friend. He would have never participated in anything like that, and neither would Robert - not until after the the tourney of Harrenhal when his troubles with his second cousin, Rhaegar Targaryen, began.

Further, I really don't see why any great lords or the Citadel would want to abolish the monarchy. That would only lead to chaos. Perhaps the Arryns, Lannisters, Starks, and Baratheons could claim the crown of their particular regions, but the Tullys and Tyrells have no claim to any crowns.

Any deposition of Aerys II or Prince Rhaegar done with the intention of keeping the monarchy intact would have to work with Steffon or Robert Baratheon - but the Citadel would be as skeptical of the dragonlord blood of the Targaryen-Baratheons as it is, apparently, of the dragonlord of the Targaryens.

The idea that marriages and some people going off to foster is evidence for some deep loyalty between various houses is just silly. Not on this scale. There were marriage ties between the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns during the War of the Five Kings which didn't help any of them much. There was a marriage alliance between Stannis and the Florents which didn't help him much. And there was a marriage alliance between the Lannisters and the Freys which didn't avail to anything.

The idea that Rickard Stark somehow commanded the allegiance of Hoster Tully and Robert Baratheon just because of some marriage contracts doesn't make any sense. Robert was related to the royal family, after all.

This entire theory is just based on sand. As long as we don't have any evidence pointing to anything like that there is no reason to even contemplate the possibility.

We don't even know what Rickard Stark having 'Southron ambitions' is even supposed to mean. Did he want a place at court? More influence for his house in the grand scale of things? The recognition of his southron peers as playing in the same league as they are (nobody cares about the North in the South, after all)?

[Lord Estermont]

If he was a wise and just ruler , i think he had the power ro turn things around but his madness was his ultimate downfall.Its important to note that had Rhaegar won at the trident things might have taken a different route anyway. He lost the rebellion because of many mistakes not only his, JonCon made a crucial mistake by not burning the village Robert was hiding. Hardly is a war over or won with a mad ruler, his generals had the biggest hands on the matter

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Yes you often state this but never provide any quotes or anything at all to support this minority view other than to act like I'm some sort of idiot by repeatedly saying you can't understand why people believe Aerys could of been an absentee king like Robert. The only way your beliefs gain any traction is if everything we've read so far regarding the situation is lies. I'm sure you think some reveal will come in the next book that proves Aerys was a good king but that's extremely unlikely, Barristan was with him to the end and if GRRM wanted the impression people were wrong about Aerys that would be the man to give it. When Aerys did take interest in running the kingdom (bringing the Titan to it's knees, Duskendale) bad things usually happened so it's good he mostly stayed out. And if Aerys indeed played such a strong roll in ruling why would he let Tywin strengthen the nobility and undo Egg's edicts? 

No one is claiming Aerys wasn't king, just that Tywin did most of the actual ruling. When the Baratheon brothers come to visit they see Tywin and believe he is the king up until Steffon tells them otherwise, what do you think the point of that story is? It's yet another indication that Tywin was the true power, people, nobles at least, around Westeros even at the time seemed to realize this and it clearly pissed Aerys off. Why is it you think Aerys was so aggressive towards Tywin? It's because his inferiority complex towards Tywin, it's actually quite sad he feels the need to run his supposed friend down and make callous remarks about his wife and grope her. Tywin got the respect and the woman that Aerys wanted and Aerys couldn't stand it, but Tywin was also his friend and so they managed to coexist for 20 years but let's not act like Aerys was the one putting up with Tywin's shit. I mean seriously this asshole supposedly says the Gods are humbling Tywin after the love of Tywin's life dies in childbirth, what kind of friend does that?

Who named Tywin as hand? Aerys

Who said if Tywin could keep his job? Aerys

Who could countermand anything that Tywin did? Aerys

The only way that Tywin could have truly ruled was if Aerys was like Robert and took no interest in the running of the country. Since AWOIAF came out we know that the biggest complaint against Aerys was that he didn't just sit back and let Tywin run things. This means that Aerys never ceded the authority of his kingship to Tywin. This means Tywin never ruled, but only served as a general manager.

While mine maybe a minority opinion it does not mean it is wrong. There isn't a particular quote I can give you, since it is a matter of understanding that the information provided is biased propaganda intended to mislead. It is up to the reader to be able to tell when something is a lie.

Let's look at this scene from AGOT, Chapter 1:

Quote

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andal and the Rhoynar, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted his greatsword high above his head.

This is how it works with a king. Everyone else's authority comes down through to them from the king. Robert didn't pay any attention to anything that was going on in his kingdom and he certainly didn't have anything to do with Ned's decision to execute the man, but the authority to do so came through Robert. Right from the beginning of the tale you are told how a king is to viewed in this world. Therefore, when we rumors of how it was Tywin who really ruled, we should be wondering exactly what faction was spreading these rumors. The fact that there were rumors like this should tell us that there was some conspiracy against Aerys brewing and brewing for a long time.

Once we find out that, yes, there was a conspiracy against Aerys so many people will howl that GRRM gave no warning of this, but I say it was there all along for anyone who could see. The only question I had was Aerys as a disinterested king as Robert. AWOIAF showed that Aerys was always interested in the running of his country. The question then becomes, who was it that was seeking Aerys overthrow.

[Boarsbane]

45 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Who named Tywin as hand? Aerys

Who said if Tywin could keep his job? Aerys

Who could countermand anything that Tywin did? Aerys

The only way that Tywin could have truly ruled was if Aerys was like Robert and took no interest in the running of the country. Since AWOIAF came out we know that the biggest complaint against Aerys was that he didn't just sit back and let Tywin run things. This means that Aerys never ceded the authority of his kingship to Tywin. This means Tywin never ruled, but only served as a general manager.

While mine maybe a minority opinion it does not mean it is wrong. There isn't a particular quote I can give you, since it is a matter of understanding that the information provided is biased propaganda intended to mislead. It is up to the reader to be able to tell when something is a lie.

Let's look at this scene from AGOT, Chapter 1:

This is how it works with a king. Everyone else's authority comes down through to them from the king. Robert didn't pay any attention to anything that was going on in his kingdom and he certainly didn't have anything to do with Ned's decision to execute the man, but the authority to do so came through Robert. Right from the beginning of the tale you are told how a king is to viewed in this world. Therefore, when we rumors of how it was Tywin who really ruled, we should be wondering exactly what faction was spreading these rumors. The fact that there were rumors like this should tell us that there was some conspiracy against Aerys brewing and brewing for a long time.

Once we find out that, yes, there was a conspiracy against Aerys so many people will howl that GRRM gave no warning of this, but I say it was there all along for anyone who could see. The only question I had was Aerys as a disinterested king as Robert. AWOIAF showed that Aerys was always interested in the running of his country. The question then becomes, who was it that was seeking Aerys overthrow.

Young Aerys is very similar to Robert, a handsome womanizer with a certain charisma and like Robert he probably spent more time chasing skirts than ruling. Ruling Westeros is a boring deal, something men like Aerys and Robert have no patience for. Aerys grandstanding by making ridiculous and bold claims like he seems to have often did does not mean he was interested in actually ruling his country. He wanted to be positively remembered, but he didn't care to put in the work for it and thus nothing he claimed he'd do ever happened. 

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Young Aerys is very similar to Robert, a handsome womanizer with a certain charisma and like Robert he probably spent more time chasing skirts than ruling. Ruling Westeros is a boring deal, something men like Aerys and Robert have no patience for. Aerys grandstanding by making ridiculous and bold claims like he seems to have often did does not mean he was interested in actually ruling his country. He wanted to be positively remembered, but he didn't care to put in the work for it and thus nothing he claimed he'd do ever happened. 

Aerys attended the sessions of his Small Council. He named and dismissed the members of said council as he saw fit. He took part in the day-to-day governance of the Realm. He held court and dispensed justice in person.

Robert seems to have done none of those things (or only very infrequently). He did not attend his council meetings, he had no interest in holding court (we never see him do that or hear he did it), and he didn't like to dispense justice, either (very evident in the whole Arya-Joffrey affair).

Robert doesn't exist as king, basically. All he ever did was having fun and spending money. And once, in his youth, he had charisma and could lead armies into battle. The man we meet is but a shell of that guy. He who once could befriend anyone has no true friend left as he himself admitted to Ned.

Aerys may have been mad, but he wasn't a disinterested prick like Robert. Aerys tried to be a king, and he was a decent king until Duskendale. Before that he was pretty much okay. Having some mad rages and torturing/killing some irrelevant people doesn't make you a bad king.

Aerys failed because he suffered from mental illness. What is Robert's excuse? He has none. That is the sad truth. The man was intentionally the worst king since Aegon the Unworthy.

[Boarsbane]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys attended the sessions of his Small Council. He named and dismissed the members of said council as he saw fit. He took part in the day-to-day governance of the Realm. He held court and dispensed justice in person.

Robert seems to have done none of those things (or only very infrequently). He did not attend his council meetings, he had no interest in holding court (we never see him do that or hear he did it), and he didn't like to dispense justice, either (very evident in the whole Arya-Joffrey affair).

Robert doesn't exist as king, basically. All he ever did was having fun and spending money. And once, in his youth, he had charisma and could lead armies into battle. The man we meet is but a shell of that guy. He who once could befriend anyone has no true friend left as he himself admitted to Ned.

Aerys may have been mad, but he wasn't a disinterested prick like Robert. Aerys tried to be a king, and he was a decent king until Duskendale. Before that he was pretty much okay. Having some mad rages and torturing/killing some irrelevant people doesn't make you a bad king.

Aerys failed because he suffered from mental illness. What is Robert's excuse? He has none. That is the sad truth. The man was the worst king since Aegon the Unworthy.

He named and dismissed council members based on how well they could lick his ass or if he thought they were one of Tywin's lackies. Say what you will about Robert but he didn't appoint people just because they made him feel better about himself. Robert attended small council sessions too so unless you can prove Aerys attended with more frequency I don't see your point. 

We barely see Robert's court, who knows if he ever held court but I don't see why you'd believe Aerys took such an active role. I don't doubt he wanted to be a good king but I simply don't believe he was willing to put in the work for it. Aerys is a man who loses interest in things fast, their are some exceptions but I don't see why running a kingdom would be one. 

What did Aerys do as king? Robert at least put down the Greyjoy rebellion,  Aerys on the other hand talked about starting two unprovoked wars but as usual it was nothing but talk.

To me Aerys came across as an even bigger prick than Robert, or at least on the same level. Robert would for the most part stay out of Jon's way at least, Aerys would actively sabotage Tywin or seemingly no other reason than he didn't like him anymore. He triples the port fees at Lannisport just to fuck with Tywin, how immature can you get?  Of course this doesnt impact much outside the West but anyone who is letting spite dictate policy is not a "decent" king. Robert was neglectful where Aerys was outright spiteful,  I suppose we differ on which is worse.

I'm not trying to imply Robert is some great standard of kingship than should be strives for, he was a lazy drunken fool who had no business being a king but that doesn't mean Aerys was any better.

[bent branch]

17 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

He named and dismissed council members based on how well they could lick his ass or if he thought they were one of Tywin's lackies. Say what you will about Robert but he didn't appoint people just because they made him feel better about himself. Robert attended small council sessions too so unless you can prove Aerys attended with more frequency I don't see your point.

Every single time I see people make this claim I realize there is no point in even trying to get them to see anything different than what they already believe. What you have forgotten is that Aerys and Aerys alone appointed and kept Tywin as his Hand. A Hand who argued all the time with him. The incorrectness to your point of view is contained in Tywin himself. You are making the mistake of believing what you are told rather than what you can see in front of you own eyes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

4 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

To me Aerys came across as an even bigger prick than Robert, or at least on the same level. Robert would for the most part stay out of Jon's way at least, Aerys would actively sabotage Tywin or seemingly no other reason than he didn't like him anymore. He triples the port fees at Lannisport just to fuck with Tywin, how immature can you get?  Of course this doesnt impact much outside the West but anyone who is letting spite dictate policy is not a "decent" king. Robert was neglectful where Aerys was outright spiteful,  I suppose we differ on which is worse.

He also doubled the port fees at Oldtown and KL - considering that Tywin had substantially lowered the port fees at exactly those three ports while raising them elsewhere, that's not immature, just different policy.

Given the effect Tywin's tax policy had (ruined Crownlands, Defiance of Duskendale). Aerys' tax policy may have been better in the long run.

[Lion of the West]

I'd say no as we've not to my knowledge seen a hostile relation or action to Aerys that wasn't created by Aerys. So I think its fair to say that Aerys was the root cause for his misfortune.

 

On 2016-06-10 at 0:34 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Or he'd gotten rid of Tywin fifteen years earlier.

 

Tywin's tenure as Hand is way overrated. He inherited the office in the best shape in three centuries, the last problems being solved about a year earlier, and left it in the worst position since the Dance of Dragons (debatably worse), just a year before the shit hit the fan

Is it so that you can't understand the benefit of something that isn's flashy, warlike and cool in appearence? I know that you dislike Jaehaerys I as well, so I have to ask you, do you think that Daeron the Good also managed nothing of importance in his life? I mean, his sons and Bloodraven defeated Blackfyre, so Daeron must have been crap. Is it what you think?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

As far as we know , THERE WASN'T A SOUTHRON CONSPIRACY. The idea of a conspiracy mainly started with Varys , and the only one he named was Rhaegar . Rhaegar seem to plan to remove his father only during Robert's Rebellion . Would they have revolted anyway ? I seriously doubt it .

[Boarsbane]

2 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

He also doubled the port fees at Oldtown and KL - considering that Tywin had substantially lowered the port fees at exactly those three ports while raising them elsewhere, that's not immature, just different policy.

Given the effect Tywin's tax policy had (ruined Crownlands, Defiance of Duskendale). Aerys' tax policy may have been better in the long run.

You do realize he restored them back to what Tywin had set them to after some people complained? He then blamed Tywin for raising them and the fact that he tripled Lannisport while only doubling the other two makes it obvious he was doing it to play with Tywin. This is a rather obvious case of Aerys' "trolling" Tywin,  not him trying to improve anything.