2016 NBA FINALS - Runnin' it Back

[Relic]

1 hour ago, sperry said:

Wonder what Lebron does in the offseason. This Cavs team doesn't even look close to a championship contender.

trade Kyrie for CP3. Trade Love to the Celtics for a couple of roleplayers. jettison JR, since you will never ever win a ring if you rely on JR. I

[sperry]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

trade Kyrie for CP3. Trade Love to the Celtics for a couple of roleplayers. jettison JR, since you will never ever win a ring if you rely on JR. I

 

I can see the Love trade working, but why would LAC trade Paul for Kyrie?  JR is kind of garbage, but there are so few two guards in the league. I just don't see this as a salvageable project.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, sperry said:

 

I can see the Love trade working, but why would LAC trade Paul for Kyrie?  JR is kind of garbage, but there are so few two guards in the league. I just don't see this as a salvageable project.

arron afflalo would fit what the Cavs are trying to do better than JR. The Clips might like to get a PG that is 7 years younger than their current guy, if they look at the West and decide they need to blow things up. How many years does CP3 have at an elite level? Historically point guards fall off the cliff at around 32-33.  

[Jaime L]

38 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

I can see the Love trade working, but why would LAC trade Paul for Kyrie?  JR is kind of garbage, but there are so few two guards in the league. I just don't see this as a salvageable project.

What Relic said. Kyrie's significantly younger and from everything we know the other young Clippers stars mostly can't stand Paul. There's been a lot of talk of trading Blake Griffin but if you're the Clippers why not trade the guy who's about to regress in skill? You're not beating the Warriors as presently constructed so why not reload for 2-3 years from now? 

And from the Cavs standpoint you're going all in for the next two years while Lebron is still at or near his peak. That's been the defacto plan since they traded Wiggins for Love so may as well go all in. 

The main sticking point though is Doc Rivers loves his old guys. He seems like the type of guy to go down with the ship instead of reloading. 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

It seems too early to start talking about the Cavs off-season. I'm not counting the Cavs out of this out yet, and I think the failures of Game 2 have the potential to spur some meaningful lineup changes. I suspect that Kevin Love's concussion may even work to the Cavs' favor, or they can help him save face by having him sit out a game for the sake of the concussion, but use that to improve the defense in their lineup. 

That said, this Cavs team - from the coach to the players - was built by LeBron. While I do not question LeBron's overwhelming skill as a megastar player who can carry his team to astronomical heights, if the Cavs do not improve, it's perhaps worth asking whether the failures of the Cavs can be placed at LeBron's feet, not in terms of his talent but, rather, his team-building, or even ask if he has too much management power in Cleveland. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

That said, this Cavs team - from the coach to the players - was built by LeBron. While I do not question LeBron's overwhelming skill as a megastar player who can carry his team to astronomical heights, if the Cavs do not improve, it's perhaps worth asking whether the failures of the Cavs can be placed at LeBron's feet, not in terms of his talent but, rather, his team-building, or even ask if he has too much management power in Cleveland. 

Sigh. Can you please provide some proof of that? Can you tell me how this works? How exactly does Lebron make decisions for the owner, president, and GM? Does his agent "suggest" trades? Do they have private meetings with Bron and ask him what he wants? I'm highly skeptical that the mega rich white dudes running the Cavs are taking orders from their main attraction. Super rich white guys tend to do whatever the fuck they want. 

[Jaime L]

4 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

It seems too early to start talking about the Cavs off-season. I'm not counting the Cavs out of this out yet, and I think the failures of Game 2 have the potential to spur some meaningful lineup changes. I suspect that Kevin Love's concussion may even work to the Cavs' favor, or they can help him save face by having him sit out a game for the sake of the concussion, but use that to improve the defense in their lineup. 

That said, this Cavs team - from the coach to the players - was built by LeBron. While I do not question LeBron's overwhelming skill as a megastar player who can carry his team to astronomical heights, if the Cavs do not improve, it's perhaps worth asking whether the failures of the Cavs can be placed at LeBron's feet, not in terms of his talent but, rather, his team-building, or even ask if he has too much management power in Cleveland. 

Yeah agreed on both. Even with two blowouts I'm not ready to say the series is done. The old saw about a "series doesn't start until someone wins on the road" still applies. Cleveland's been undefeated at home this postseason (I know, I know...)...and Warriors have been way more susceptible away from Oracle. Guys like Draymond and Livingston and Barbosa aren't likely to play nearly as well away from home.

Needs to start with Kyrie playing better though. He's been a net negative in that at least last year every possession ran through Lebron and he figured out the optimal thing to do. Now Kyrie takes some of those touches and isn't doing near as much with them.

And yes I've had serious questions about this team Lebron constructed from the start. He couldn't anticipate the rise of the Warriors and it was always going to be an uphill climb both changing culture and working with the roster available to him. But still seems to have whiffed completely on the core aspect that made the Heat so good - frenetic, perimeter defense. He has guys who can help carry the offensive load but as we saw in the Finals last year - Lebron doesn't need all that much of that. Against the best teams, he needs guys who are nails defensively and can compliment him offensively. Shane Battier really. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

Sigh. Can you please provide some proof of that? Can you tell me how this works? How exactly does Lebron make decisions for the owner, president, and GM? Does his agent "suggest" trades? Do they have private meeting with Bron and ask him what he wants? 

The proof is in the pudding. A max contract for Tristan Thompson based on what exactly outside of an explicit endorsement from LeBron. Firing a coach with a .650 win percentage in the middle of a season. Taking the clipboard out of a coach's hand at a key moment in a Game 6 of the playoffs. The list goes on and on. Do you need a Deep Throat sort of source at this point? LeBron needs a Pat Riley type to keep him in check, and he clearly does not have that in Cleveland. And it's to his detriment, whether he acknowledges it or not.

[Relic]

Series is over guys. Cavs MIGHT win one. If they win more than two ill fly to Jaime's house, wash his car, clean his pool, and serve him breakfast in bed. For a week.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Series is over guys. Cavs MIGHT win won. If they win more than two ill fly to Jaime's house, wash his car, clean his pool, and serve him breakfast in bed. For a week.  

Boris Diaw's moob sweat agrees.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

The proof is in the pudding. A max contract for Tristan Thompson based on what exactly outside of an explicit endorsement from LeBron. Firing a coach with a .650 win percentage in the middle of a season. Taking the clipboard out of a coach's hand at a key moment in a Game 6 of the playoffs. the list goes on and on. Do you need a Deep Throat sort of source at this point? LeBron needs a Pat Riley type to keep him in check, and he clearly does not have that in Cleveland. And it's to his detriment, whether he acknowledges it or not.

Ok, so basically there is no proof that LeBron forced anyone to do anything. He might have made suggestions, certainly, like with the T.T. contract, but insofar as pulling the strings is concerned you are all talking out of your ass. Did i get that straight? 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Relic said:

Ok, so basically there is no proof that LeBron forced anyone to do anything. He might have made suggestions, certainly, like with the T.T. contract, but insofar as pulling the strings is concerned you are all talking out of your ass. Did i get that straight? 

C'mon, Relic. This guy is still the best overall player in the league. Who in the Cavalier's hierarchy has the pull to tell LeBron no? It's painfully obvious that when he speaks, they jump.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

C'mon, Relic. This guy is still the best overall player in the league. Who in the Cavalier's hierarchy has the pull to tell LeBron no? It's painfully obvious that when he speaks, they jump.

Umm, the billionaire owner and his president? You don't, for one minute, think that Gilbert is taking orders from Lebron, do you? 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Boris Diaw's moob sweat agrees.

hahaha. visions of sugar plums

[Jaime L]

5 minutes ago, Relic said:

Sigh. Can you please provide some proof of that? Can you tell me how this works? How exactly does Lebron make decisions for the owner, president, and GM? Does his agent "suggest" trades? Do they have private meetings with Bron and ask him what he wants? I'm highly skeptical that the mega rich white dudes running the Cavs are taking orders from their main attraction. Super rich white guys tend to do whatever the fuck they want. 

You saw his letter when he came back to the Cavs, right? The one that mentioned every single young guy on the roster except the two that got traded. Every single move the Cavs make requires final sign-off from Lebron. The organization is terrified he might leave again. Not to mention he's the only one in the organization with rings. Who's gonna stand up to him? You can tell from the latest Windhorst piece - he decides the offseason training regimen. If David Blatt is doing shit that doesn't make sense to Lebron, boom, gone. 

Lebron is the organization. 

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Series is over guys. Cavs MIGHT win won. If they win more than two ill fly to Jaime's house, wash his car, clean his pool, and serve him breakfast in bed. For a week.  

Man, this was the bet we should have made last year. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Relic said:

Umm, the billionaire owner and his president? You don't, for one minute, think that Gilbert is taking orders from Lebron, do you? 

Taking orders is a bit hyperbolic, but do you think he can afford to ignore him? He left once, right? Honestly, I think LeBron has the upperhand here.

[Fez]

Yeah, the organization will obviously do whatever it wants on the business side of things, but on the basketball side of things its pretty clear that LeBron has enormous sway over what the team does. All superstars have some say over what their teams end up doing, but LeBron has even more than most; they're just too scared he'll leave again.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Taking orders is a bit hyperbolic, but do you think he can afford to ignore him? He left once, right? Honestly, I think LeBron has the upperhand here.

Can Gilbert afford to ignore LeBron? Of course he can, he's a billionaire. LeBron left, they got 3 out of 4 number one picks, and i don't think Gilbert lost too much sleep over the digits in his bank account. From a basketball POV it makes sense to listen to what your star wants, but in the end the decision to listen to LeBron or not to listen to Lebron comes from up top. And credit/fault for building this Cavs team goes to them as well. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Relic said:

Can Gilbert afford to ignore LeBron? Of course he can, he's a billionaire. LeBron left, they got 3 out of 4 number one picks, and i don't think Gilbert lost too much sleep over the digits in his bank account. From a basketball POV it makes sense to listen to what your star wants, but in the end the decision to listen to LeBron or not to listen to Lebron comes from up top. And credit/fault for building this Cavs team goes to them as well. 

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they've clearly decided to defer to him regarding every major move they've made since he's returned. Gilbert may as well name him the GM. As great as an on the court basketball mind as he has, I don't think LeBron is doing a good job as GM. If he had any self-awareness regarding this issue, he would lobby his owner to bring on a proven GM who might challenge his own pronouncements. 

[Maithanet]

23 minutes ago, Relic said:

Series is over guys. Cavs MIGHT win one. If they win more than two ill fly to Jaime's house, wash his car, clean his pool, and serve him breakfast in bed. For a week.  

Wow, I think I'm going to start rooting for the Cavs just to see this.  Also because I don't want this series to be a complete joke, which it has been thus far.