Would the royces be as powerful as the mandrelys if they controlled gulltown and the rest of the peninsula they share with it

[Tarellen]

So the Royce are the second house of the vale but seem to be behind the mandrelys in power and wealth. So what if they controlled the gulltown and rest of the pensiula they share with it. Would that make them as or more powerful then the mandrelys?

[Boarsbane]

It would make them more powerful than the Manderly's I suspect, I believe Gulltown is probably the more busy port and also you have the fact the Royces are a powerhouse even without the port and they have never been displaced from the Vale unlike the Manderlys who were outsiders to the North.

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

On 6/3/2016 at 2:43 AM, Boarsbane said:

It would make them more powerful than the Manderly's I suspect, I believe Gulltown is probably the more busy port and also you have the fact the Royces are a powerhouse even without the port and they have never been displaced from the Vale unlike the Manderlys who were outsiders to the North.

Yes, I agree, this would make them more powerful in terms of men and military strength but I doubt if they'll become richer than the Manderlys.. Gulltown is larger than White Harbor, it is a known fact, which would make the revenue generated by Gulltown probably higher than White Harbor; but White Harbor hs one shining advantage - its silver mines, which allows House Manderly to show such ostentatious display of wealth (White marble septs, silver tridents for their palace guards, naval fleet, etc) only seen in high lords such as Lannisters, Tyrells, Velaryons (pre-DotD), etc and merchant princes in Essos..

[Free Northman Reborn]

Remember that Gulltown is far, far older than White Harbor. There  was a thriving port town there before the first Andals came. So around 3000 years ago. How far back it dates before then is anyone's guess. But one has to remember it was the only major port city on the entire Narrow Sea coast of Westeros for thousands of years. 

By contrast White Harbor was only founded 1000 years ago. But it seems to have thrived where Gulltown stagnated until it has now virtually caught up to Gulltown in size. This is for four main reasons, in my view.  

First because the Manderlys built a real commercial network up the White Knife, which allowed them to connect large parts of the interior of the North via trade to the outside world.

Secondly because according to the Worldbook the Shivering Sea has the richest fishing grounds in the world and White Harbor is the closest city to it.

Thirdly because of the founding of Braavos 800 years ago, which placed a huge trading port right at White Harbor's proverbial doorstep, where before the North was pretty much far from everywhere.

And lastly because the founding of King's Landing 300 years ago would have diverted a lot of trade away from Gulltown to King's Landing instead.

I expect the growth trajectory to continue, as the North is woefully underdeveloped currently, and White Harbor has far more untapped growth potential than Gulltown. Eventually White Harbor will be bigger than Gulltown.

[The Wolves]

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Remember that Gulltown is far, far older than White Harbor. There  was a thriving port town there before the first Andals came. So around 3000 years ago. How far back it dates before then is anyone's guess. But one has to remember it was the only major port city on the entire Narrow Sea coast of Westeros for thousands of years. 

By contrast White Harbor was only founded 1000 years ago. But it seems to have thrived where Gulltown stagnated until it has now virtually caught up to Gulltown in size. This is for four main reasons, in my view.  

First because the Manderlys built a real commercial network up the White Knife, which allowed them to connect large parts of the interior of the North via trade to the outside world.

Secondly because according to the Worldbook the Shivering Sea has the richest fishing grounds in the world and White Harbor is the closest city to it.

Thirdly because of the founding of Braavos 800 years ago, which placed a huge trading port right at White Harbor's proverbial doorstep, where before the North was pretty much far from everywhere.

And lastly because the founding of King's Landing 300 years ago would have diverted a lot of trade away from Gulltown to King's Landing instead.

I expect the growth trajectory to continue, as the North is woefully underdeveloped currently, and White Harbor has far more untapped growth potential than Gulltown. Eventually White Harbor will be bigger than Gulltown.

Do you think that now that the Starks/North has a fleet that that will help with White Harbor growing as a city? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

We're told there are other ports for the Vale, and the Manderlys have silver mines, so it's impossible to say.  Being the only warm water port of the north is very valuable.

[TheSovereignGrave]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Remember that Gulltown is far, far older than White Harbor. There  was a thriving port town there before the first Andals came. So around 3000 years ago. How far back it dates before then is anyone's guess. But one has to remember it was the only major port city on the entire Narrow Sea coast of Westeros for thousands of years. 

By contrast White Harbor was only founded 1000 years ago. But it seems to have thrived where Gulltown stagnated until it has now virtually caught up to Gulltown in size. This is for four main reasons, in my view.  

I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe White Harbour is smaller than any of the other big cities of Westeros (including Gulltown) by quite a major degree.

[The Wolves]

23 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe White Harbour is smaller than any of the other big cities of Westeros (including Gulltown) by quite a major degree.

Gultown is bigger but not by much I don't think. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On 03/06/2016 at 7:37 PM, Tarellen said:

So the Royce are the second house of the vale but seem to be behind the mandrelys in power and wealth. So what if they controlled the gulltown and rest of the pensiula they share with it. Would that make them as or more powerful then the mandrelys?

How exactly are they behind the Manderlys? We have seen far more evidence of them being more powerful than the Manderlys.

The Royces control lands all across the Vale, he is the strongest Vale Lord while Wyman being the most powerful Northern Lord is only a theory.

[The Wolves]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How exactly are they behind the Manderlys? We have seen far more evidence of them being more powerful than the Manderlys.

The Royces control lands all across the Vale, he is the strongest Vale Lord while Wyman being the most powerful Northern Lord is only a theory.

How is the Manderlys being the most powerful Northern bannermen a theory? 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

30 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

How is the Manderlys being the most powerful Northern bannermen a theory? 

 

Because it is unconfirmed in the books. It is most likely them or the Boltons, but there has been nothing to show that they are in the books.

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe White Harbour is smaller than any of the other big cities of Westeros (including Gulltown) by quite a major degree.

The phrasing from Martin was that King's Landing and Oldtown are close together in size, then there is a big drop down to Lannisport, and then there is a big drop down to Gulltown and White Harbor. So White Harbor and Gulltown are very similar in size, with Gulltown slightly the larger of the two.

In another quote we hear that Gulltown and White Harbor have populations in the "tens of thousands" each.

50 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How exactly are they behind the Manderlys? We have seen far more evidence of them being more powerful than the Manderlys.

The Royces control lands all across the Vale, he is the strongest Vale Lord while Wyman being the most powerful Northern Lord is only a theory.

The Royces seem to be the Bolton equivalents of the Vale. The historical rivals to the ruling House, going back thousands of years. But then the Royces seem to control a lot more territory in the immediate surroundings of Gulltown - and perhaps even in Gulltown itself - whereas the Boltons' control ended at the borders of their own lands before they recently conquered the Hornwood lands as well.

So I would estimate House Royce at around 5000-6000 men in strength. Which puts them in the upper levels of bannerlord strength.

As for the Manderlys. We know they have the largest navy in the North. We know they have the most heavy horse in the North - by a consdirable margin, considering they still have the most even after suffering losses. And we know they are the richest lords in the North. They also rule the North's only city, and control its greatest inland trade route. So it is very likely that they also have the most densely populated lands.

The only thing we don't know for sure yet - and this is simply because of the turn of phrase Lord Manderly happened to use with Davos - is whether they also have the largest total army in the North. But given the above, it seems highly, highly likely to be the case. By a considerable margin, too.

 

[Tarellen]

12 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How exactly are they behind the Manderlys? We have seen far more evidence of them being more powerful than the Manderlys.

The Royces control lands all across the Vale, he is the strongest Vale Lord while Wyman being the most powerful Northern Lord is only a theory.

I going by what the majority of the forum seems to think 

[Raisin' Bran]

17 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

I going by what the majority of the forum seems to think 

That sounds anecdotal at best. They are powerful, but "most" powerful is a stretch.

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

That sounds anecdotal at best. They are powerful, but "most" powerful is a stretch.

It's not a stretch at all, Free Northmen Reborn does a good job outlining why.  They control the only city in the North, which sits at the mouth of the largest river.  They are the farthest south meaning the warmest lands, and control a bunch of silver mines.  It's actually implausible that they are not the strongest house.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

36 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It's not a stretch at all, Free Northmen Reborn does a good job outlining why.  They control the only city in the North, which sits at the mouth of the largest river.  They are the farthest south meaning the warmest lands, and control a bunch of silver mines.  It's actually implausible that they are not the strongest house.

Wealth wise certainly. Prestige wise not at all, they are still outsiders within the North. Military wise it seems unclear.

They only sent 1,500 men with Robb. Both the Karstarks and Boltons sent more, 800 more in the Karstarks case.

When Rodrik called for help when Winterfell was taken both the Manderlys and Karstarks sent a few hundred men. The Boltons also sent men, though not to help. Ramsay had 600 which was more than Manderly brought, likely double it.

ADWD at Winterfell Wyman was summoned and only brought 300 men (some may have even been survivors of Rodrik's host) while the Karstarks supplied 450 for Stannis.

 

In the 5 books (and sample chapters of book 6) we have seen more actual soldiers from both the Boltons and Karstarks than we have the Manderlys.  Now while I am very certain that the Manderlys are more powerful than the Karstarks it is not very clear in regards to the Boltons. The Boltons may well be the Starks most powerful vassals.

In the Vale there is less mystery about how powerful the Royces are. They are clearly the most powerful vassal with their own Lordly vassals (Coldwater and Tollet) and a decent amount of control of Gulltown through their vassals the Shetts.

[Tarellen]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Wealth wise certainly. Prestige wise not at all, they are still outsiders within the North. Military wise it seems unclear.

They only sent 1,500 men with Robb. Both the Karstarks and Boltons sent more, 800 more in the Karstarks case.

When Rodrik called for help when Winterfell was taken both the Manderlys and Karstarks sent a few hundred men. The Boltons also sent men, though not to help. Ramsay had 600 which was more than Manderly brought, likely double it.

ADWD at Winterfell Wyman was summoned and only brought 300 men (some may have even been survivors of Rodrik's host) while the Karstarks supplied 450 for Stannis.

 

In the 5 books (and sample chapters of book 6) we have seen more actual soldiers from both the Boltons and Karstarks than we have the Manderlys.  Now while I am very certain that the Manderlys are more powerful than the Karstarks it is not very clear in regards to the Boltons. The Boltons may well be the Starks most powerful vassals.

In the Vale there is less mystery about how powerful the Royces are. They are clearly the most powerful vassal with their own Lordly vassals (Coldwater and Tollet) and a decent amount of control of Gulltown through their vassals the Shetts.

They were told by the Starks to hold back and they were fighting the boltons during the iron born invasion. He hates the Boltons so he held back for them. And they hav the most heavy cavalry in the north. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, Tarellen said:

They were told by the Starks to hold back and they were fighting the boltons during the iron born invasion. He hates the Boltons so he held back for them. And they hav the most heavy cavalry in the north. 

And they could not outright win against the Boltons, this is despite the Boltons sending more men South with Robb. It is only till Rodrik intervenes is Ramay captured.

If the Manderlys were so powerful then why did Robb not send a raven asking them to do more against the Ironbor and why did they send so few to help the captured Winterfell.

 

Having more heavy horse than other Northern Lords means exactly that, it does not mean being able to raise more soldiers.

[redtree]

They could if they control the whole city, Gulltown's location is more strategic, it is closer to Essos and any other cities in Westeros. I expect that it also has milder winter and connected to a very fertile land, even more fertile than Reach. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And they could not outright win against the Boltons, this is despite the Boltons sending more men South with Robb. It is only till Rodrik intervenes is Ramay captured.

If the Manderlys were so powerful then why did Robb not send a raven asking them to do more against the Ironbor and why did they send so few to help the captured Winterfell.

 

Having more heavy horse than other Northern Lords means exactly that, it does not mean being able to raise more soldiers.

I think on this issue more than any other  you are reaching, and simply clinging to a turn of phrase to delay the death of your argument until Winds is released. 

There is no logical way to look at all the facts without giving the Manderlys the most men in the North.

There are many truly debatable points we disagree on, all of which could go either way. This in my view is not one of them, and you weaken your overall position on the broader issues by clinging to this one.