Cersie/Tommen

[SerMixalot]

I would disagree with the assessment of Tommen primarily because of Weisseroff's statement inside the episode that Tommen is not an idiot. Though certainly debatable

I agree Margery has a problem with Cersei, but her interests are NOT served with this action.  If Cersei loses her trial, Tommen is delegitimized and she is no longer queen, she is a thrice widow with a house in disarray.  She has ALOT to lose. 

Having the Faith Trial find Cersei of some crimes but not of Twincest is interesting, but dangerous.

 

 

 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

8 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Tommen yes, but shouldn't Kevan be the voice of reason there? (and shouldn't he hate the Faith's rise to power because of well, Lancel?) His House is being weakened and humiliated and he is just content with it, because, um... spite?

Taking personal feelings about characters aside, Kevan and Tommen's handlers have actually seemed to bring about relative peace considering the shit situation Cersei threw them in.

They avoided a civil war inside the city that Cersei plotted, they "progressed" away from trials by combat (Tyrion and Jaime talk about how stupid they are), and the faith militant don't seem to be running through destroying brothels anymore.

Spoiler

In the books, Kevan is killed because he creates too much stability. Whether he may have given up a bit too much in the show, the stability and peace that Varys couldn't have at this time were there.

Joffrey and Cersei were hated by the common folk. Remember the riot when they dropped Marcella off? Tommen and Margery seem to be loved by the small folk bc of their apparent alliance with the faith. 

Tywin told Tommen that a good king must listen to his advisors and use great wisdom in his decisions. Now people are seeing it as a plot hole that he isn't going to war for his mother? He's always been one to avoid conflict and for the most part, it's been a good thing for King's Landing.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Taking personal feelings about characters aside, Kevan and Tommen's handlers have actually seemed to bring about relative peace considering the shit situation Cersei threw them in.

They avoided a civil war inside the city that Cersei plotted, they "progressed" away from trials by combat (Tyrion and Jaime talk about how stupid they are), and the faith militant don't seem to be running through destroying brothels anymore.

  Hide contents

In the books, Kevan is killed because he creates too much stability. Whether he may have given up a bit too much in the show, the stability and peace that Varys couldn't have at this time were there.

Joffrey and Cersei were hated by the common folk. Remember the riot when they dropped Marcella off? Tommen and Margery seem to be loved by the small folk bc of their apparent alliance with the faith. 

Tywin told Tommen that a good king must listen to his advisors and use great wisdom in his decisions. Now people are seeing it as a plot hole that he isn't going to war for his mother? He's always been one to avoid conflict and for the most part, it's been a good thing for King's Landing.

No doubt about all you said, BUT, Tommen's kingship rests SOLELY on his supposed legitimacy as a Baratheon heir.  The results of Cersei's trial, while however satisfying to Kevan and Margery and Tommen etal, will likely wind up with Cersei being found guilty-thus going from Trial by Combat to Trial by the Faith.  Cersei being found guilty makes Tommen ILLEGITIMATE, making Kevan and Pycelle and even the HS and Margery no longer legitimate rulers. 

[Masha]

1 hour ago, Phonzadellika said:

I really didn't care for the last episode...it didn't make a lot of sense and this is the move that made the least amount of sense.

 

I'm supposed to believe that Tommen is really going to put his mom in a situation where she is certain to lose her trial for incest, treason and regicide from which the by-product would be his own illegitimatization which would lead to a dissolution of his marriage to Margery, creating the ultimate effect of him not being able to plow his hot wife anymore, which seems to be pretty much the only thing he cares about?

 

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Tommen wants her dead.  He just doesn't know what he's doing.  But, there is one person in Kings Landing, who must surely want her dead.

 

Margaery's interests are very much served by having Cersei executed.  Cersei has threatened her, and got her and her brother imprisoned.

First of all, I don't think Tommen knows that much about the Mountain/Frankengregor. I don't think he ever saw Cersei in his menacing presence. She always takes care to keep him outside the room when she speaks with Tommen.

So, HS whispers to him that his Sparrows - the ones terrorizing KL - will defeat anyone Cersei can throw at, plus give an example of lost trial by combat - Viper vs Mountain, explain how unpredictable it can be and why he should risk his mother to a chance. Better to have her judged by "few good men" all checked by him personally?

Tommen doesn't have to that stupid and naive, Cersei still takes care to protect him  -by not telling of fGregor's abilities, and he believes that "nice kind old man" who did as he promised and saved Margaery.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

1 minute ago, SerMixalot said:

No doubt about all you said, BUT, Tommen's kingship rests SOLELY on his supposed legitimacy as a Baratheon heir.  The results of Cersei's trial, while however satisfying to Kevan and Margery and Tommen etal, will likely wind up with Cersei being found guilty-thus going from Trial by Combat to Trial by the Faith.  Cersei being found guilty makes Tommen ILLEGITIMATE, making Kevan and Pycelle and even the HS and Margery no longer legitimate rulers. 

Why would he think she'd lose her trial? His wife and HS are still referring to him as King and are likely in his ear telling him he has nothing to worry about.

Now Kevan may be a bit more worried about the illegitimacy of his claim, but I feel like he's betting on the HS not undermining himself. Kevan also loathes Cersei for what she's done in power possibly blames her a bit for Lancel losing his mind. I don't think he'd mind seeing her thrown away since she DID absolutely disgrace the family name.

[Tianzi]

6 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Taking personal feelings about characters aside, Kevan and Tommen's handlers have actually seemed to bring about relative peace considering the shit situation Cersei threw them in.

They avoided a civil war inside the city that Cersei plotted, they "progressed" away from trials by combat (Tyrion and Jaime talk about how stupid they are), and the faith militant don't seem to be running through destroying brothels anymore.

  Reveal hidden contents

In the books, Kevan is killed because he creates too much stability. Whether he may have given up a bit too much in the show, the stability and peace that Varys couldn't have at this time were there.

Joffrey and Cersei were hated by the common folk. Remember the riot when they dropped Marcella off? Tommen and Margery seem to be loved by the small folk bc of their apparent alliance with the faith. 

Tywin told Tommen that a good king must listen to his advisors and use great wisdom in his decisions. Now people are seeing it as a plot hole that he isn't going to war for his mother? He's always been one to avoid conflict and for the most part, it's been a good thing for King's Landing.

Having Cersei judged and possibly executed is not a good thing for the Lannister or the Crown's prestige.

Having HS dictating Tommen what to do is not in Lannisters ot the Crown' interests.

Having the Faith powerful enough to decide what to do with the members of the powerful Houses or even royal family - not good either, Olenna even described it as two great Houses facing collapse. Sure, it's on Cersei, and she definitely should be put in a position when she can do no harm, but Kevan and Tommen allowing HS to call the shots - one because of personal spite, the other because he is dumb - are against the Crown and House Lannister's interests.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

I would disagree with the assessment of Tommen primarily because of Weisseroff's statement inside the episode that Tommen is not an idiot. Though certainly debatable

I agree Margery has a problem with Cersei, but her interests are NOT served with this action.  If Cersei loses her trial, Tommen is delegitimized and she is no longer queen, she is a thrice widow with a house in disarray.  She has ALOT to lose. 

Having the Faith Trial find Cersei of some crimes but not of Twincest is interesting, but dangerous.

 

 

 

The worst that can happen to Margaery is that she's no longer Queen - but Cersei is dead.

The best that can happen to Margaery is that she remains Queen, Tommen is under her thumb, and Cersei is dead.

 

[SerMixalot]

3 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Why would he think she'd lose her trial? His wife and HS are still referring to him as King and are likely in his ear telling him he has nothing to worry about.

Now Kevan may be a bit more worried about the illegitimacy of his claim, but I feel like he's betting on the HS not undermining himself. Kevan also loathes Cersei for what she's done in power possibly blames her a bit for Lancel losing his mind. I don't think he'd mind seeing her thrown away since she DID absolutely disgrace the family name.

Well first Weisseroff said losing the TBC puts Cersie in more danger cause Ser Big Guy would win, so eliminating a TBC is by definition making Cersei more likely to lose a trial.

But even  ignoring that and going solely with what appears on screen, all of the players would lose if Cersei loses, cause all their power relies on Tommen's legitimacy.  The only one who MIGHT want a trial-because he could fix it is the HS, whereby the damaged is minimized and Cersei is killed and Tommen remains legitimate, but then why would Kevan and Pycelle know this? They are hostile to the HS.  They should be dead set against any Faith Trial. 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

Just now, Tianzi said:

Having Cersei judged and possibly executed is not a good thing for the Lannister or the Crown's prestige.

Having HS dictating Tommen what to do is not in Lannisters ot the Crown' interests.

Having the Faith powerful enough to decide what to do with the members of the powerful Houses or even royal family - not good either, Olenna even described it as two great Houses facing collapse. Sure, it's on Cersei, and she definitely should be put in a position when she can do no harm, but Kevan and Tommen allowing HS to call the shots - one because of personal spite, the other because he is dumb - are against the Crown and House Lannister's interests.

In a lot of ways, Cersei is actually a deterrent from the house's continuation. She screwed up Kevan's house by twisting Lancel, she's preventing Tywin's house from continuing because of her affairs with Jaime, and her last child is technically a Baratheon. Kevan, very understandably, could see Cersei's death or removal from power as the house's only real chance at continuing with prestige. She's already disgraced them via the walk of atonement and her list of stupid mistakes is incredibly long. Olenna didn't even want to bother with her anymore.

And you're acting like Kevan is empowering the faith. They already were empowered because of Cersei and pre-Kevan Tommen didn't seem interested in fighting them. They also have the backing of the small folk. I'm not sure what Kevan's alternative as an advisor would be. Start a civil war over a family member that has disgraced your house and represents a road block to its survival?

The two great houses are on the brink of collapse because of Cersei. Kevan is basically diplomatically trying to undo the knot that she created.

[SerMixalot]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The worst that can happen to Margaery is that she's no longer Queen - but Cersei is dead.

The best that can happen to Margaery is that she remains Queen, Tommen is under her thumb, and Cersei is dead.

 

Queen of a house without an heir, thus subject to revolt by their lords

[SerMixalot]

BTW, thanks to all for their input, much appreciated, giving me some good food for thought and perspective.  I do believe that with GoT you have to go with the simplest answer, but still.  The issue of the HS cutting out certain crimes such that only Cersei is punished hadn't occurred to me and is interesting.  Still problematic but interesting.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

3 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Well first Weisseroff said losing the TBC puts Cersie in more danger cause Ser Big Guy would win, so eliminating a TBC is by definition making Cersei more likely to lose a trial.

But even  ignoring that and going solely with what appears on screen, all of the players would lose if Cersei loses, cause all their power relies on Tommen's legitimacy.  The only one who MIGHT want a trial-because he could fix it is the HS, whereby the damaged is minimized and Cersei is killed and Tommen remains legitimate, but then why would Kevan and Pycelle know this? They are hostile to the HS.  They should be dead set against any Faith Trial. 

Cersei doesn't have to lose every charge, and my suspicion is that Kevan would gladly see her die for killing Robert, but is hopeful that the Faith would allow Tommen to stay in power to avoid a all out world. The faith has a ton of power - 100% because of Cersei - and this isn't an easy situation to get out of.

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

In a lot of ways, Cersei is actually a deterrent from the house's continuation. She screwed up Kevan's house by twisting Lancel, she's preventing Tywin's house from continuing because of her affairs with Jaime, and her last child is technically a Baratheon. Kevan, very understandably, could see Cersei's death or removal from power as the house's only real chance at continuing with prestige. She's already disgraced them via the walk of atonement and her list of stupid mistakes is incredibly long. Olenna didn't even want to bother with her anymore.

Jaime is preventing the Lannister name from continuing. Cersei's kids had to have a different last name, because, er... that's how it is with a woman's children?

Removal of power, yes. She shouldn't be making decisions, but sitting quietly in Casterly Rock, or something. But her death in the Hands of the Faith would be like the walk of shame - which you yourself called a disgrace - only worse.

4 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

And you're acting like Kevan is empowering the faith. They already were empowered because of Cersei and pre-Kevan Tommen didn't seem interested in fighting them. They also have the backing of the small folk. I'm not sure what Kevan's alternative as an advisor would be. Start a civil war over a family member that has disgraced your house and represents a road block to its survival?

The two great houses are on the brink of collapse because of Cersei. Kevan is basically diplomatically trying to undo the knot that she created.

Is he? I have the impression he is doing nothing, barring showing satisfaction because of Cersei's misfortune.

He should be whispering into Tommen's ear how leaving all the decisions to the Faith and putting a royal family member at their mercy - especially given the incest rumors and the implications of Tommen's own illegitimacy - is the most risque thing ever, despite what HS might be promising him.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Cersei doesn't have to lose every charge, and my suspicion is that Kevan would gladly see her die for killing Robert, but is hopeful that the Faith would allow Tommen to stay in power to avoid a all out world. The faith has a ton of power - 100% because of Cersei - and this isn't an easy situation to get out of.

I agree that that is how it is being played out, but that is a serious gamble by Kevan, especially when he can just send Cersei to CR and be done with her, she has no power right now and that would solve his problems.  Well some of them

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

I agree that that is how it is being played out, but that is a serious gamble by Kevan, especially when he can just send Cersei to CR and be done with her, she has no power right now and that would solve his problems.  Well some of them

Yeah, hadn't thought of sending her back to CR. Maybe with Marg and the HS talking Tommen's ear off about justice in the eyes of the gods, plus the political ramifications of hiding someone (who is despised by basically everyone, especially the people most fond of the Faith rn) from a King-killing trial, that could represent a bigger risk in Kevan's mind.

I don't think the Faith has a ton to gain by disposing Tommen while he and Marg are seemingly on their side, so maybe that's effecting my view of the situation.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Jaime is preventing the Lannister name from continuing. Cersei's kids had to have a different last name, because, er... that's how it is with a woman's children?

Removal of power, yes. She shouldn't be making decisions, but sitting quietly in Casterly Rock, or something. But her death in the Hands of the Faith would be like the walk of shame - which you yourself called a disgrace - only worse.

Is he? I have the impression he is doing nothing, barring showing satisfaction because of Cersei's misfortune.

He should be whispering into Tommen's ear how leaving all the decisions to the Faith and putting a royal family member at their mercy - especially given the incest rumors and the implications of Tommen's own illegitimacy - is the most risque thing ever, despite what HS might be promising him.

Didn't Cersei threaten to burn KL down to Tywin for trying to separate her from Tommen? I agree with everything you said here, but I think it's undervaluing what a cancerous loose cannon Cersei is. I think it's reasonable that Kevan might view dealing with the Faith and maintaining peace a better alternative than trying to protect Cersei.

Neither road is great though tbh

[Tianzi]

Just now, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Didn't Cersei threaten to burn KL down to Tywin for trying to separate her from Tommen? I agree with everything you said here, but I think it's undervaluing what a cancerous loose cannon Cersei is. I think it's reasonable that Kevan might view dealing with the Faith and maintaining peace a better alternative than trying to protect Cersei.

Neither road is great though tbh

Cersei made that threat to Tywin, Kevan doesn't know about that.

Besides, the Faith is a cancerous loose cannon as well, but the way, way more powerful one. HS is the guy who received his first bit of power from Cersei and imprisoned her in return. He is the guy who was boasting about overthrowing an empire. Tommen cannot openly go to a war with him, but trusting him is a very, very dumb idea. So neither he, nor Kevan should really be taking any bets in belief of his good will.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Yes.

Wasn't the Lancel thing the reason for her walk of shame, but the trial about the rest of the accusations?

Actually I now despise Tommen more than I have ever despised Joffrey.

The walk of shame is her first steps toward repentance, kind of like bail in their world.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

17 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Cersei made that threat to Tywin, Kevan doesn't know about that.

Besides, the Faith is a cancerous loose cannon as well, but the way, way more powerful one. HS is the guy who received his first bit of power from Cersei and imprisoned her in return. He is the guy who was boasting about overthrowing an empire. Tommen cannot openly go to a war with him, but trusting him is a very, very dumb idea. So neither he, nor Kevan should really be taking any bets in belief of his good will.

I don't disagree that it's not the brightest idea. Imprisoning Cersei was one thing while decrediting Tommen would be an entirely different thing all together though.

And I think you're seriously undervaluing what a cancer she is.

[Winter Rose Crown]

What's the rumor she mentioned to qyburn? That tyrion is working with/for dany? That marg had moontea?