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rs1n

Faceless men history turned on its head

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3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Yes. Littlefinger says that it would cost as much to hire a faceless man to kill a merchant as it would to hire an entire army of sellswords. We are lead to believe that while a merchant would cost the same as an army killing someone like the last living targayran would be exponentially more expensive.

 

My guess is that every time they get a contract they just go out and kill whomever is walking by and say that the red god has been satisfied.

I imagine they are actually that expensive because you also have to pay for all the collateral damage they cause carrying out the hit. Tons of produce scattered in the streets, blood all over the city, broken carts and windows at every corner, etc. That stuff adds up.

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2 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I imagine they are actually that expensive because you also have to pay for all the collateral damage they cause carrying out the hit. Tons of produce scattered in the streets, blood all over the city, broken carts and windows at every corner, etc. That stuff adds up.

ok you got an honest laugh out loud with that one. Like the moment I read produce people in my office looked at me like I might be insane. Well done.

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9 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

According to Jaquen, the FM even founded Braavos.

Maybe they are actually some kind of washed-up celebrities and the Braavosi people let them live on in their illusions of past fame while enjoying their antics as a form of weird entertainment. Arya vs. Waif were actually contestants in a reality show.

And the Ship's captain wasn't afraid, he was excited, because "Braavos' next ninja assassin" is his sons favourite programme.

Next Braavosi Ninja would be a terrific show. (I actually do think that the original story of the faceless men is pretty awesome and will, in time, prove important but until then......Sorry Bobcut, you stabbed arya 4 times in the stomach and even twisted the knife in, you removed your face DURING the assassination and then followed her into a lair where you forgot that you too know how to fight in the dark....for all these reason we had to chop you)

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5 hours ago, Net-Viper X said:

The whole T-1000 chase through town was so cheesy that when the waif jumped over that produce cart, I was actually surprised they didn't do some matrix style slow mo right there and have the stone walkway crack where she landed.

That's it!  I couldn't quite put my finger on what those scenes with the Waif-inator chasing Arya were missing...and it's definitely some "Bullet Time" cinematography!;) 

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

But, the FM are all about discretion.  This is why they don't simply go out, run through the streets and knife you in public.  In the books, they take much care that the deaths aren't even offcially assassinations.  Balon 'fell off' the bridge, ahem.  The insurance guy is poisoned but it looks like a heart attack. Everything about the FM is subtle. 

Bobcut running through the streets of Braavos chasing Arya with a knife, after she already stabbed her in broad daylight on a bridge and then Arya staggered through the streets....I mean if she's supposed to be worst ever FM who can't follow rule #1, #2 or #3....

This!  Not to mention that the Waif is very un-Faceless Man-like in her blatant, passionate, and very personal hatred of Arya:rolleyes:

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Bingo...and really well said. In fact, have we seen the FM (on the show) make good on one single contract?

Well, if Jaqen's three Harrenhall kills for Arya can be thought of as "contracts" then they would count as a Faceless Man actually succeeding.  But that would be it in the show. 

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6 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Well, if Jaqen's three Harrenhall kills for Arya can be thought of as "contracts" then they would count as a Faceless Man actually succeeding.  But that would be it in the show. 

I thought about this and disqualified it based on the fact that it was more an oral agreement than a contract. Like if I sell apricots and you want some apricots and I give you three I can't really go home and say I sold three apricots today.

They were specifically hired to do 2 or 3 hits...all of which we see them give to an uninitiated novice who drops the ball each time. At no point do we see them show up and clean up the job. And when that novice finally gets on there nerves from fucking up there contracts, not following the rules and lying to them all while they are housing her, feeding her and giving her priceless assassin training they fail to kill her.

 

Really starting to think that the sorrowful men of qarth are a better option for all your assassination needs.

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1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

I thought about this and disqualified it based on the fact that it was more an oral agreement than a contract. Like if I sell apricots and you want some apricots and I give you three I can't really go home and say I sold three apricots today.

They were specifically hired to do 2 or 3 hits...all of which we see them give to an uninitiated novice who drops the ball each time. At no point do we see them show up and clean up the job. And when that novice finally gets on there nerves from fucking up there contracts, not following the rules and lying to them all while they are housing her, feeding her and giving her priceless assassin training they fail to kill her.

 

Really starting to think that the sorrowful men of qarth are a better option for all your assassination needs.

You make good points here and, hey, I don't have strong feelings about it either way.  That's why I said IF Jaqen's three Harrenhall kills can be thought of as "contracts".  Just food for thought, but there are such things as "Verbal Contracts";) 

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1 minute ago, Prince of the North said:

You make good points here and, hey, I don't have strong feelings about it either way.  That's why I said IF Jaqen's three Harrenhall kills can be thought of as "contracts".  Just food for thought, but there are such things as "Verbal Contracts";) 

Indeed there are. I have no doubt that Jaquen is an awesome killer. I feel this is what happens when you take your best talent and move them into management position thinking that being good at the job will translate to being good at managing others.

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Just now, YOVMO said:

Indeed there are. I have no doubt that Jaquen is an awesome killer. I feel this is what happens when you take your best talent and move them into management position thinking that being good at the job will translate to being good at managing others.

HA!  Yes, it does seem as if that's exactly what happened!  Jaqen is one of those guys who's much better in the field than he'll ever be behind a desk:D

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2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

HA!  Yes, it does seem as if that's exactly what happened!  Jaqen is one of those guys who's much better in the field than he'll ever be behind a desk:D

Now I am picturing him like the boss from Dilbert just sitting in his office, wadding up paper and tossing it in the garbage and trying to look busy when people come by.

Oh, yeah, a girl has to go kill an actress. I'll send....ummmmm.....ugh so stressful, I am trying to do the boxes for the office pool for the NCAA championship....arg, fine I will just send arya

Oh, hi no one....did you kill that actress....

er, yeah, about that, a girl didn't do it

hmmmm this is bad.....shit...uhm...listen, well, you know we were paid pretty high for that contract

A girl is going to call the HR director and tell them you are harassing her

A man will relent.

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4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Now I am picturing him like the boss from Dilbert just sitting in his office, wadding up paper and tossing it in the garbage and trying to look busy when people come by.

Oh, yeah, a girl has to go kill an actress. I'll send....ummmmm.....ugh so stressful, I am trying to do the boxes for the office pool for the NCAA championship....arg, fine I will just send arya

Oh, hi no one....did you kill that actress....

er, yeah, about that, a girl didn't do it

hmmmm this is bad.....shit...uhm...listen, well, you know we were paid pretty high for that contract

A girl is going to call the HR director and tell them you are harassing her

A man will relent.

A man notices that a girl certainly is touchy!  Sheesh! :P

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8 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think I understood it, there is no contradiction in the story of the FM :

- the only rule for jaqen is 'the face of your target or your face', he don't give a damn about any other rule

- the Waif-U is reckless? it never shown how the FM must behave in any episode

- the ending is logical, jaqen's only rule is 'bring a face', Arya didn't want to kill Cersei2, but their god needs a face so Jaqen sent the Waif-U to collect the face of Arya, but Arya killed Waif-U and bring her face to the hall, Jaqen don't give a shit who's face it was, for him, Arya paid her debt to the many faces god, so for him, she don't owe nothing to the FM, she's free to go

So does that mean Arya is free to kill anyone and cut their faces off so she can use the skill of changing faces? or is that stealing from the many face god? So if she doesn't use face switching in the future than the entire story line was useless.

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8 hours ago, YOVMO said:

right...if the mob only had one person...that person had a bobcut and, despite stabbing a little girl multiple times in the stomach and even twisting the knife in failed to kill them......and also didn't pay attention during fighting in the dark classes. So pretty much the gang who couldn't shoot straight.

 

I always thought it was interesting in the books that the boat had a mixed reaction to Arya having that coin. Some seemed to want to buddy up to her and others seemed to shun her. Makes me think that when JH says "hand this coin to any man of braavos...." he was overestimating the public opinion

I was also thinking, "did you not remember your temporary blindness training?", but then I wonder if for the show Arya's blindness was truly meant to be a punishment, whereas in the books I took it that it would have happened anyway as a training.

I interpreted the reaction of the sailors in the books to be shunned out of fear, and then those who made sure she remembered their name was because they knew that a faceless man doesn't take an assignment on someone (s)he knows.

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If you think that FM are simply an assassins guild then you probably expected things to go Lian Hearn style - vengeful ninjas hunting Arya 4life. If you think that FM are more like Keepers from the "Thief" games or D&D Druids (so called lawful neutral) - observers and careful manipulators, it makes much more sense.

The Waif was an awful example of FM because she enjoyed frightening, pursuing, torturing and killing her victims. We shouldn't treat her as a model FM. She understood nothing from the religious teachings. FM deliver "the gift" to save one from the unnecessary suffering and only if it is balanced by equally significant sacrifice. FM also demand that the one delivering "the gift" is to be indifferent and preferably doesn't even know a person he is supposed to kill.

The Waif repeatedly demanded the right to murder a girl she was jealous of. And her wish was granted: she was allowed to try. She failed because of her shortcomings and paid the ultimate price... for "Only death can pay for life". The outcome was decided from the start, at least this is what true FM believer would assume. Unlike the Waif, Arya have learned from her lessons by suffering as her victims had suffered. She have learned the value of life, the compassion, the mercy. By defeating Waif, a mirror image of her old spiteful self, Aria finally discards her old self. She has become No-One, thus she can become whomever she wants to be.

Let me sum this up with two quotes from one of the greatest games of old:

The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit.

and

The most promising acolyte left us, not out of the lesser folly of sentiment, but the greater folly of anger. His heart was clouded, and his balance was lost, but his abilities were unmatched. Even then, we knew to watch him most carefully.

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12 hours ago, Sigrid said:

I was also thinking, "did you not remember your temporary blindness training?", but then I wonder if for the show Arya's blindness was truly meant to be a punishment, whereas in the books I took it that it would have happened anyway as a training.

I interpreted the reaction of the sailors in the books to be shunned out of fear, and then those who made sure she remembered their name was because they knew that a faceless man doesn't take an assignment on someone (s)he knows.

I am going with the faceless men having thousands of absurd temporary potions. One makes you grow a huge goiter for a few days, another makes your fingersnails grow at a rate way too rapid, another makes you limp, one gives you downs syndrome and another gives you terrible diabetes one makes you smell like cabbage. Then, each initiate is given a random crazy temporary potion and then beaten until they can overcome the disability instilled and then they are allowed to reverse the effects. This way, each faceless man would have some specialty. Ostensibly, arya's is fighting in the dark while T-1000 took a potion which gave her terrible hairdos and an inability to be subtle. Right person for the right job.

 

Actually, yes, you are probably right about the blindness being a punishment and not a form of training but I like my idea better. 

I get the same thing you did from the reaction of the sailors but I also remember it being more. I am in a re-read now towards the end of Clash so it won't be long until I come upon this. I will put a bookmark in this and return when and if I have something more conclusive about my thoughts regarding the different attitudes of the braavosi to the FM coin.

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14 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

If you think that FM are simply an assassins guild then you probably expected things to go Lian Hearn style - vengeful ninjas hunting Arya 4life. If you think that FM are more like Keepers from the "Thief" games or D&D Druids (so called lawful neutral) - observers and careful manipulators, it makes much more sense.

The Waif was an awful example of FM because she enjoyed frightening, pursuing, torturing and killing her victims. We shouldn't treat her as a model FM. She understood nothing from the religious teachings. FM deliver "the gift" to save one from the unnecessary suffering and only if it is balanced by equally significant sacrifice. FM also demand that the one delivering "the gift" is to be indifferent and preferably doesn't even know a person he is supposed to kill.

The Waif repeatedly demanded the right to murder a girl she was jealous of. And her wish was granted: she was allowed to try. She failed because of her shortcomings and paid the ultimate price... for "Only death can pay for life". The outcome was decided from the start, at least this is what true FM believer would assume. Unlike the Waif, Arya have learned from her lessons by suffering as her victims had suffered. She have learned the value of life, the compassion, the mercy. By defeating Waif, a mirror image of her old spiteful self, Aria finally discards her old self. She has become No-One, thus she can become whomever she wants to be.

Let me sum this up with two quotes from one of the greatest games of old:

The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit.

and

The most promising acolyte left us, not out of the lesser folly of sentiment, but the greater folly of anger. His heart was clouded, and his balance was lost, but his abilities were unmatched. Even then, we knew to watch him most carefully.

I guess this works for people who think Arya is a vicious murderer... That's never how I've read her though. She kills people who are in her way, but she doesn't torture them. She doesn't chase down people weaker than her to also torture them. She doesn't hate people for what they were born as...

 

The waif doesn't seem like any version of Arya to me. She just seems like a 1-dimensional enemy for Arya that the show writers made up.

 

As for the FM(really just Jaqen as there are no others...) my best interpretation is that he likes Arya so he taught her some skills and gave her options for her life. Either to return to her home as she has chosen or to go anywhere she wants as she is offered in the books.

 

It really didn't show us anything of the larger purpose or goals of Jaqen... What's he do with all his resources besides training Arya to be a better person? 

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6 hours ago, Kienn said:

I guess this works for people who think Arya is a vicious murderer... That's never how I've read her though. She kills people who are in her way, but she doesn't torture them.

Stabbing Trant in the gut, gauging his eyes, mocking him as he helplessly awaited his fate and giving him enough time to experience the full extent of pain and fear before she finally slit his throat, was not vicious and sadistic enough for you?

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6 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

Stabbing Trant in the gut, gauging his eyes, mocking him as he helplessly awaited his fate and giving him enough time to experience the full extent of pain and fear before she finally slit his throat, was not vicious and sadistic enough for you?

No, viciousness is relative. Trant was vicious so he gets a vicious death. That doesn't mean Arya is.

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What bothers me about the whole storyline, is not really the waif because that is easily explained by her being a trainee too, but rather that it is simply so much better in the books, and would not have been difficult or expensive to follow more closely.  I mean she learned fighting while blind and that is about it.  In the book she figured out how to kill the insurance guy herself, becomes an excellent thief, learns multiple languages, poisons, to fight blind, mummery, and still has not learned the actual face switching techniques other than literally putting the face over her own.  In the show she also did not learn the face switching technique and that bothers me.  I feel like that is the real skill of the fm, it's in the name, she could learn everything else from anyone.

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The only way I can remotely reconcile the FM in the show back to the books is if the "contract" on Lady Crane was a test.

It feels to me that this is not a contract that the FM would accept, and certainly not one that a jealous jobbing actress could afford. 

So perhaps it was a test to ascertain whether or not a girl was the right type of person to be a FM.

Perhaps it was exactly the type of test the Waif had failed in the past... hence the "kid kept back in school" advanced training and jealousy situation... which is one of the many reasons that the Waif was never going to cut it as a FM.

It's a bit cacky to expect a casual viewer to join all the dots though..

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6 hours ago, Kienn said:

No, viciousness is relative. Trant was vicious so he gets a vicious death. That doesn't mean Arya is.

That is a very disturbing thought. Are you implying that killing someone vicious is a vicious way does not make you vicious?

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