Pivotal Scene in Dorne [Spoilers]

[duponthooch]

In the finale on Sunday, we're supposed to get a pivotal scene in Dorne that involves Varys and Olenna. Let’s remember that under Dornish law, the oldest child is the heir regardless of their sex. We've now got a family of bastard women in the Sand Snakes ruling the kingdom. With Cersei destroying the realm, bringing down both her house and house Tyrel and Loras set to renounce all lands and titles, Olenna is going to be looking for an out. That out lies with DORNISH LAW. If the realm accepts Dornish law of inheritance, it’s set to benefit all parties involved. And a season of Who Runs the World.... Girls, it makes so much sense that this idea will be the subject of the rendezvous.

 

First off, let’s start with Varys and by proxy Danaerys. Obviously, by changing the law to allow women inheritance, it sets the stage for her to take the Iron Throne as the daughter of the Mad King. I don’t think there’s too much to be added here. But something they’ve touched on several times is that for Danaerys to be a good ruler, she has to have the nobility on her side. So let’s go through the Kingdoms.

 

In Dorne the Sandsnakes are currently ruling and will probably continue to rule. They value their independence, and they get to continue it.

 

Now what to the Tyrel’s have to benefit from this law? Margaery is currently queen, and you would see her ultimate goals as diametrically opposed to Danaerys’s. But the Tyrel women and savvy and can see the writing on the wall. Margaery would be able to leave King’s Landing and become the heir to Highgarden, and in the likely event of Tommen’s death, this would be a good contingency plan. And if Tommen were to survive, he could renounced his throne upon Danaerys’s arrival, the Tyrel/Lannister/Baratheon alliance would control the Westerlands, the Reach and the Stormlands.

 

Sansa is also a key player in this deal as the now heir to Winterfell. On one hand she was married to Tyrion a key ally of Danerys. If that marriage were reinstituted, it would certainly benefit that angle. However, on the other side of things you have Little Finger, a key ally of Lady Olenna. It seems we may have ourselves a potential Little Finger/Sansa marriage coming soon. He’s the Lord of Harrenhall, Warden of the West and if you combine that with her hold over the north, you have another major power couple.

 

And this brings me to the next piece of the puzzle. Last season, in the Gift, Little Finger gave Lady Olenna a gift: "the same gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young lad". I know at the time I took this to mean Lancel or Olyvar, but honestly it really never made any sense. Now, I think it's GENDRY! First off, he very much is a handsome young lad if I do say so myself. Second, if I remember back to season 1, it was LF who gave Cersei the information about Gendry. He was the one who took Ned there and I imagine was Cersei's source when she was killing all the bastards. And let's remember that Dorne is the one kingdom where bastards aren't looked down upon.

 

Gendry could be important part of the puzzle here. With the entire Baratheon clan wiped out, Tommen's death will create a major power vacuum. On one hand, he could marry Danaerys and unite the Targaryen house with the Baratheon house. On the other hand, if and when Tommen dies, he could become Margaery’s 4th husband. The Tyrels are a family of matriarchs with token men and Gendry would fit right in. Also, I'd like to add that in the season where people who we haven't seen in a while keep coming back (Benjen, Rickon, Osha, the Hound, the Blackfish, Berick, Thoros, the Freys, Jon, Bran) wouldn't it just be fitting to have Gendry come back in the finale?

 

Cersei is a wrench in these plans. If the law were changed and Tommen dies, she would become the heir to Casterly Rock since she’s older than Jaime. Surely Olenna will be hoping for her demise.

 

How does this relate back to the books? Obviously there are some major changes. The complexion of Dorne is totally different and then there’s Aegon. But if you look at Margaery’s role compared to Arianne and Gendry to Aegon, you can see some parallels of where things might go. Varys is an ally of Aegon in the books and trying to broker a marriage with Danaerys, so I can see his role translating. Furthermore, riffing on the theme of bastardry and female inheritance, if Varys and Faegon are in fact Blackfyres running through the female line, this plot touches on both points.

 

Jon is another wildcard with these themes. He's the oldest child of Ned Stark, but a bastard, but if and when his true parentage emerges things will change.

 

And where does the Oldtown plot fit into this? Aegon supposedly has “friends in the Reach” which we’ve all taken to mean the Tarleys, and Sam is at the Citadel with Sarella/Alleras. How could they play into the plot?

 

Ultimately, I still think #TeamSansa will win the Game of Thrones, and I'm not sure how we will get there, but this law change would certainly benefit her. And Little Finger's insatiable ambition could both disrupt this power balance, and be his own downfall.

 

What do you guys think? At first, I thought this theory was total crackpot, but the more I've thought about it, the more I like it.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

I wouldn't like it. But it does make a lot of sense and you've reasoned it out well. Well thought out and said. Enough to make me think that at least some of this may be attempted. I agree about Gendry though. I've been saying he's the handsome young lad for a while. Even joked about him being legitimized in the same way the Tyrell support legitimized Renly's claim. (ie. it's only legit if they win and have the power to keep it legit.) and marrying Marge.

[Aryakills]

Show wise I wouldn't be surprised if a sand snake kills Marg and Olenna is poisoned. 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Is there any chance we will see FAegon?

[Tchzaelous]

Gendry - Only a King can legitimize a bastard, so I'm guessing you're thinking it'd be the reverse here? Dany legitimizing a Baratheon? Hope her personality does a 180 before she hits Westeros, since all she ever talks about is murdering the Usurper's dogs and how she wants to "break the wheel" of the class system. Of which she would be a part of still being Queen...

Sansa Lannister-Bolton won't be inheriting a whole lot unless that shift includes renouncing several marriages somehow as well. Even if Bran never comes back, or Jon never legitimized, wouldn't it fall to a Karstark (if there are any even left at this point... Karstarks being Starks from Karhold)?

 

But I totally agree Dorne is where Dany will come into Westeros. That's the only reason I can see to have butchered the Dorne plotlines as bad as they have these last 2 seasons.

 

[Tchzaelous]

24 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Is there any chance we will see FAegon?

No, they are closing up storylines and jackhammering characters actions, motivations, and locations to fit the-action-scene-to-shock-scene-to-action-scene season 6 we've been getting. No way they introduce anything big.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

8 minutes ago, Tchzaelous said:

No, they are closing up storylines and jackhammering characters actions, motivations, and locations to fit the-action-scene-to-shock-scene-to-action-scene season 6 we've been getting. No way they introduce anything big.

Did they say there will be no fAegon?

[The Lash]

There will be no pivotal scene in Dorne because the whole Dorne story line is crap.

[Rory Snow]

Hopefully this all leads to getting the short Sand Snake, the one who killed Hotah, back on screen again... she's gorgeous

[Aryakills]

It's only pivotal when it comes to Varys. Which side is he on? Dany or the realm of westeros?

 

House Sand needs chaos.  Theve already killed one of Cersie's kids, what's another?  And decapitate another house while doing so. Kill the king and queen, driving Cersie insane, and completely decapitate House Tyrell by killing Olenna. This leaves Mace and he's not fit to run the Lollipop Guild.

If showElleria wants revenge on theLannisters, this would do it. If she also wants independence for Dorne, then she does nott need an alliance with any other Westeros house as long as they're fighting amongst themselves or someone else. She really only needs Dany. The enemy of my enemies is my friend. 

[Illiterati]

4 hours ago, Tchzaelous said:

Gendry - Only a King can legitimize a bastard, so I'm guessing you're thinking it'd be the reverse here? Dany legitimizing a Baratheon? Hope her personality does a 180 before she hits Westeros, since all she ever talks about is murdering the Usurper's dogs and how she wants to "break the wheel" of the class system. Of which she would be a part of still being Queen...

Sansa Lannister-Bolton won't be inheriting a whole lot unless that shift includes renouncing several marriages somehow as well. Even if Bran never comes back, or Jon never legitimized, wouldn't it fall to a Karstark (if there are any even left at this point... Karstarks being Starks from Karhold)?

 

But I totally agree Dorne is where Dany will come into Westeros. That's the only reason I can see to have butchered the Dorne plotlines as bad as they have these last 2 seasons.

 

Well, Tyrion >Lannister< has so far survived with her, has he not?

[Lord Lannister]

If they were going to make a big deal of the Dornish female succession rule, you think they'd have mentioned it a few times of late.

[Jedi Renee]

So Obara is the ruler of dorne now? She's the oldest  right 

[Jedi Renee]

On 24/06/2016 at 3:46 AM, duponthooch said:

In the finale on Sunday, we're supposed to get a pivotal scene in Dorne that involves Varys and Olenna. Let’s remember that under Dornish law, the oldest child is the heir regardless of their sex. We've now got a family of bastard women in the Sand Snakes ruling the kingdom. With Cersei destroying the realm, bringing down both her house and house Tyrel and Loras set to renounce all lands and titles, Olenna is going to be looking for an out. That out lies with DORNISH LAW. If the realm accepts Dornish law of inheritance, it’s set to benefit all parties involved. And a season of Who Runs the World.... Girls, it makes so much sense that this idea will be the subject of the rendezvous.

 

First off, let’s start with Varys and by proxy Danaerys. Obviously, by changing the law to allow women inheritance, it sets the stage for her to take the Iron Throne as the daughter of the Mad King. I don’t think there’s too much to be added here. But something they’ve touched on several times is that for Danaerys to be a good ruler, she has to have the nobility on her side. So let’s go through the Kingdoms.

 

In Dorne the Sandsnakes are currently ruling and will probably continue to rule. They value their independence, and they get to continue it.

 

Now what to the Tyrel’s have to benefit from this law? Margaery is currently queen, and you would see her ultimate goals as diametrically opposed to Danaerys’s. But the Tyrel women and savvy and can see the writing on the wall. Margaery would be able to leave King’s Landing and become the heir to Highgarden, and in the likely event of Tommen’s death, this would be a good contingency plan. And if Tommen were to survive, he could renounced his throne upon Danaerys’s arrival, the Tyrel/Lannister/Baratheon alliance would control the Westerlands, the Reach and the Stormlands.

 

Sansa is also a key player in this deal as the now heir to Winterfell. On one hand she was married to Tyrion a key ally of Danerys. If that marriage were reinstituted, it would certainly benefit that angle. However, on the other side of things you have Little Finger, a key ally of Lady Olenna. It seems we may have ourselves a potential Little Finger/Sansa marriage coming soon. He’s the Lord of Harrenhall, Warden of the West and if you combine that with her hold over the north, you have another major power couple.

 

And this brings me to the next piece of the puzzle. Last season, in the Gift, Little Finger gave Lady Olenna a gift: "the same gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young lad". I know at the time I took this to mean Lancel or Olyvar, but honestly it really never made any sense. Now, I think it's GENDRY! First off, he very much is a handsome young lad if I do say so myself. Second, if I remember back to season 1, it was LF who gave Cersei the information about Gendry. He was the one who took Ned there and I imagine was Cersei's source when she was killing all the bastards. And let's remember that Dorne is the one kingdom where bastards aren't looked down upon.

 

Gendry could be important part of the puzzle here. With the entire Baratheon clan wiped out, Tommen's death will create a major power vacuum. On one hand, he could marry Danaerys and unite the Targaryen house with the Baratheon house. On the other hand, if and when Tommen dies, he could become Margaery’s 4th husband. The Tyrels are a family of matriarchs with token men and Gendry would fit right in. Also, I'd like to add that in the season where people who we haven't seen in a while keep coming back (Benjen, Rickon, Osha, the Hound, the Blackfish, Berick, Thoros, the Freys, Jon, Bran) wouldn't it just be fitting to have Gendry come back in the finale?

 

Cersei is a wrench in these plans. If the law were changed and Tommen dies, she would become the heir to Casterly Rock since she’s older than Jaime. Surely Olenna will be hoping for her demise.

 

How does this relate back to the books? Obviously there are some major changes. The complexion of Dorne is totally different and then there’s Aegon. But if you look at Margaery’s role compared to Arianne and Gendry to Aegon, you can see some parallels of where things might go. Varys is an ally of Aegon in the books and trying to broker a marriage with Danaerys, so I can see his role translating. Furthermore, riffing on the theme of bastardry and female inheritance, if Varys and Faegon are in fact Blackfyres running through the female line, this plot touches on both points.

 

Jon is another wildcard with these themes. He's the oldest child of Ned Stark, but a bastard, but if and when his true parentage emerges things will change.

 

And where does the Oldtown plot fit into this? Aegon supposedly has “friends in the Reach” which we’ve all taken to mean the Tarleys, and Sam is at the Citadel with Sarella/Alleras. How could they play into the plot?

 

Ultimately, I still think #TeamSansa will win the Game of Thrones, and I'm not sure how we will get there, but this law change would certainly benefit her. And Little Finger's insatiable ambition could both disrupt this power balance, and be his own downfall.

 

What do you guys think? At first, I thought this theory was total crackpot, but the more I've thought about it, the more I like it.

I'm unsure if Oberyns other 5 daughters will appear  (although he told Cersei in s 5 he has 8 daughters ). Wud love to see sarella tho.

[Aryakills]

Would love to see the look on Olenna's face if a marriage is brought up and one of the snakes says, "I've yet to have a queen" or "it's not Loras I'll marry".

[OtusUmbra]

Great thread! This all seems very likely, in fact the OP story set out would redeem the oddball arc that entire location has had since its appearance in the show. 

I wonder why Doran was killed in the show, whereas in the books he sort of reveals himself as Bosley to Dorne's Charlie's Angels? I also wonder why one sand snake was hiding out in oldtown in the books? 

How Dorne fits in with the endgame of the books has always been puzzling for me. 

[lakin1013]

Only slightly to the left of topic, but on the tv show, there was some chemistry between Gendry and Arya.  She is on her way.  If only he could stop rowing....  :-) That gives us a Stark/Baratheon marriage, and Queen Arya???

[Ice Spider]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 11:46 AM, duponthooch said:

In the finale on Sunday, we're supposed to get a pivotal scene in Dorne that involves Varys and Olenna. Let’s remember that under Dornish law, the oldest child is the heir regardless of their sex. We've now got a family of bastard women in the Sand Snakes ruling the kingdom. With Cersei destroying the realm, bringing down both her house and house Tyrel and Loras set to renounce all lands and titles, Olenna is going to be looking for an out. That out lies with DORNISH LAW. If the realm accepts Dornish law of inheritance, it’s set to benefit all parties involved. And a season of Who Runs the World.... Girls, it makes so much sense that this idea will be the subject of the rendezvous.

 

First off, let’s start with Varys and by proxy Danaerys. Obviously, by changing the law to allow women inheritance, it sets the stage for her to take the Iron Throne as the daughter of the Mad King. I don’t think there’s too much to be added here. But something they’ve touched on several times is that for Danaerys to be a good ruler, she has to have the nobility on her side. So let’s go through the Kingdoms.

 

In Dorne the Sandsnakes are currently ruling and will probably continue to rule. They value their independence, and they get to continue it.

 

Now what to the Tyrel’s have to benefit from this law? Margaery is currently queen, and you would see her ultimate goals as diametrically opposed to Danaerys’s. But the Tyrel women and savvy and can see the writing on the wall. Margaery would be able to leave King’s Landing and become the heir to Highgarden, and in the likely event of Tommen’s death, this would be a good contingency plan. And if Tommen were to survive, he could renounced his throne upon Danaerys’s arrival, the Tyrel/Lannister/Baratheon alliance would control the Westerlands, the Reach and the Stormlands.

 

Sansa is also a key player in this deal as the now heir to Winterfell. On one hand she was married to Tyrion a key ally of Danerys. If that marriage were reinstituted, it would certainly benefit that angle. However, on the other side of things you have Little Finger, a key ally of Lady Olenna. It seems we may have ourselves a potential Little Finger/Sansa marriage coming soon. He’s the Lord of Harrenhall, Warden of the West and if you combine that with her hold over the north, you have another major power couple.

 

And this brings me to the next piece of the puzzle. Last season, in the Gift, Little Finger gave Lady Olenna a gift: "the same gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young lad". I know at the time I took this to mean Lancel or Olyvar, but honestly it really never made any sense. Now, I think it's GENDRY! First off, he very much is a handsome young lad if I do say so myself. Second, if I remember back to season 1, it was LF who gave Cersei the information about Gendry. He was the one who took Ned there and I imagine was Cersei's source when she was killing all the bastards. And let's remember that Dorne is the one kingdom where bastards aren't looked down upon.

 

Gendry could be important part of the puzzle here. With the entire Baratheon clan wiped out, Tommen's death will create a major power vacuum. On one hand, he could marry Danaerys and unite the Targaryen house with the Baratheon house. On the other hand, if and when Tommen dies, he could become Margaery’s 4th husband. The Tyrels are a family of matriarchs with token men and Gendry would fit right in. Also, I'd like to add that in the season where people who we haven't seen in a while keep coming back (Benjen, Rickon, Osha, the Hound, the Blackfish, Berick, Thoros, the Freys, Jon, Bran) wouldn't it just be fitting to have Gendry come back in the finale?

 

Cersei is a wrench in these plans. If the law were changed and Tommen dies, she would become the heir to Casterly Rock since she’s older than Jaime. Surely Olenna will be hoping for her demise.

 

How does this relate back to the books? Obviously there are some major changes. The complexion of Dorne is totally different and then there’s Aegon. But if you look at Margaery’s role compared to Arianne and Gendry to Aegon, you can see some parallels of where things might go. Varys is an ally of Aegon in the books and trying to broker a marriage with Danaerys, so I can see his role translating. Furthermore, riffing on the theme of bastardry and female inheritance, if Varys and Faegon are in fact Blackfyres running through the female line, this plot touches on both points.

 

Jon is another wildcard with these themes. He's the oldest child of Ned Stark, but a bastard, but if and when his true parentage emerges things will change.

 

And where does the Oldtown plot fit into this? Aegon supposedly has “friends in the Reach” which we’ve all taken to mean the Tarleys, and Sam is at the Citadel with Sarella/Alleras. How could they play into the plot?

 

Ultimately, I still think #TeamSansa will win the Game of Thrones, and I'm not sure how we will get there, but this law change would certainly benefit her. And Little Finger's insatiable ambition could both disrupt this power balance, and be his own downfall.

 

What do you guys think? At first, I thought this theory was total crackpot, but the more I've thought about it, the more I like it.

Sorry, won't happen. No where enough time to cram that all in.

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 7:55 PM, Tchzaelous said:

Gendry - Only a King can legitimize a bastard, so I'm guessing you're thinking it'd be the reverse here? Dany legitimizing a Baratheon? Hope her personality does a 180 before she hits Westeros, since all she ever talks about is murdering the Usurper's dogs and how she wants to "break the wheel" of the class system. Of which she would be a part of still being Queen...

Sansa Lannister-Bolton won't be inheriting a whole lot unless that shift includes renouncing several marriages somehow as well. Even if Bran never comes back, or Jon never legitimized, wouldn't it fall to a Karstark (if there are any even left at this point... Karstarks being Starks from Karhold)?

 

But I totally agree Dorne is where Dany will come into Westeros. That's the only reason I can see to have butchered the Dorne plotlines as bad as they have these last 2 seasons.

 

None of Roberts bastards were acknlowledged, so there is no way they can be legitimized. Their claim to be bastards rests on what their mothers said and/or rumors, and that would not be good enough. Jon is in a different class because Ned had acknowledged him

In any case, Robert's eldest bastard is Mya Stone. So if you wanted to apply "Dornish rules" (which would not apply in the rest of Westeros anyway), she would be the eldest. And in her case at least, even though she was not acknowledged, it was never the less common knowledge that she was Robert's bastard, unlike all the rest.