Not Confirmed

[TheGreatStallion]

44 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I did not know there was a theory that Ned and Ashara as Jon's parents would make Jon into AA. Did the theory insist that only this pairing would work? 

I'm pretty skeptical on the prophecies, or at least that they will be clear and helpful compared to the history. But I could see, at the end of all this, that Jon could look like AA to those in the story who believe in the prophecy. Also seems clear in the show and the books that Dany could seem that way to in-world people, too.

Specifically, Rhaegar's last words were "a woman's name." 

In those visions in the House of the Undying, Dany has no trouble hearing and understanding what people say. She understands Rhaegar's convo with Elia re: their son. She understands what Aerys says in the throne room. And she understands the words of the dying prince well enough to know it's a woman's name.

But she doesn't say WHAT name it is. 

So, could the whisper have threaded the needle well enough to be recognizable as a woman's name but not for Dany to realize it was a name she knew? Sure. But it could also be a woman's name Dany didn't know. And that's why she didn't say it. She knows Lyanna's name in the books--talks about her crowning to Barristan as though she's heard the story over and over and says Lyanna's name. And she thinks of Elia's name. So. . . seems like there's at least a chance Rhaegar said a name Dany didn't know. My current guess is Ashara and that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, but that's probably for another thread.

Good question. In the books, seems like Lord Commander Hightower is still in charge and they are all under orders from Rhaegar. So Arthur is following orders. In the show, Arthur flat out says that their prince wanted them here. And they are clearly angry about Rhaegar's defeat and want Ned's friend Robert dead. It seemed like that fight was about honor and holding the line until the end. It was a stupid fight otherwise, no matter who the father of Lyanna's baby is.

Very true. Unless Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna as a lover but as a hostage. Or even just ended up with her, as Beric and the Brotherhood ended up with Arya and then decided to use her for their own ends even as they protected her. Or even took her for his own ends, as Baelish takes Sansa.

Yup! We have no idea if that would be enough. All the SSM's and World Book tell us is that it must be a worthy knight of House Dayne. But until we get more info, a child of Rhaegar might fit the bill.

Yup! @Kingmonkey has done a fair amount of argument in this direction. That Starfall sounds like a grail castle. So, that could definitely be a possibility.

But so far in the books, World Book, and SSM's, Martin has only said that the Daynes choose a worthy Daynish knight to wield the sword. That the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises, until a worthy Dayne is deemed worthy enough to wield it. Could that change? Absolutely. But so far, Martin has only told us that Daynes alone wield Dawn.

Thank you for the answers !!

[TheGreatStallion]

3 hours ago, Marada78 said:

Did you see this infographic by HBO? http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

First they confirm Jon parentage.

Second leaving outside Tyrion they confirm something is going to be revealed about him also.

Very interesting point !!!!

I hope you are right ! I did not notice that in the first place, but yeah maybe ! 

Because it can just be that he is not relevant at that moment of the story. but I really hope you are right  

[brightflame princess]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But the show has Robert saying to Ned that he will kill every Targaryen he can get his hands on because of what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. That's vengeance, not his claim.

And in the books, Martin makes it VERY clear that Ned never thinks Robert wants to kill children over the succession. He thinks Robert condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children out of vengeance. And fears that Robert will kill Cersei's children out of rage and wounded pride. Even that Robert's rage could turn on him and Cat over Tyrion. 

I put up the quotes here if you want to see for yourself--Humph. I can't get it to embed. Sorry for the big loud graphic.

 

It really depends on why Rhaegar had Lyanna and what he was protecting. The books are NOT clear on the subject. The show and books have shown that people take hostages for all sorts of reasons--Arya is protected by the Brotherhood, but they still intend to ransom her. Same with the Hound. And Baelish has plenty of plans for Sansa. 

So, what was Rhaegar's endgame? Why did he sit out the war so long? The books make it clear that he wanted to depose his father and rule for himself--sitting out the war is a weird way to defend his throne, unless he intended to damage Aerys and swoop in as the savior at the end, proving himself more fit. The books show that Rhaegar was a political animal with political plots and games. If Lyanna is part of a political move, protecting her might be important to his endgame, baby or no baby.

Or there's the theory that they were guarding another royal baby mama--Ashara, pregnant with Rhaegar's daughter, Dany.

I agreed. He would not leave them there to guard Arthur's child. But he might very well leave them there to hold onto his hostage for later peace negotiations with the North. Or to guard his impending child by another woman.

That would be very cool. And would make me very happy. But I will not be surprised if they actually conflated Starfall and the tower. If Lyanna in the books was actually at Starfall and the fight at the tower was just a meeting place. 

And unless Dawn and the Daynes matter to future plots, I can't see D&D wasting time and budget on a trip to Starfall.

Martin has said in an SSM that Dawn waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises. But I could see the show just having Ned take it with him intending to give it to Jon when Jon is old enough to know the truth. 

HA! All fair. They could just be trying to appease Dawn-fanatics like myself. But they made sure a lot of the focus was on the sword. Not subtle at all.

As for the bleeding star, I could only find in the show where Mel says darkness will come and the stars will bleed. She never said anything about the hero's being born under a bleeding star, nor has anyone else. Unless you can remember the show's mentioning such a thing?

No--I think the sword covered in Arthur's blood at the foot of the bed covered in Lyanna's blood could very well be  connected--both died as Jon was born. His mother's blood and his father's blood--that would be personal and painful and explain why Ned never told the truth about Arthur's death. Any more than he talks about Lyanna. --a point the show hammered home.

But we need more info before we can possibly be sure.

I see your point. I guess tywin convinced Robert the murders were necessary to help him hold the throne,.

I hope you are right about ashara. She is one of.the most mysterious characters and I really hope she has a bigger role to play than just a red herring.

[Cantarella]

5 hours ago, Asvpxkvng said:

I hope they portray him well. I've always thought Jon Snow's almost naive idealism and honor comes from him. I would LOVE to see parallels. And I'd be excited to see his and Lyannas love affair.

Kinda hope they move Bran into the actual Stark plot line again after that though. Tired of him being used as a plot device. He needs to use his powers against the impending doom before.....

Yes Yes Yes. I expect a harrenhal tourney flashback next ss. IT HAS TO HAPPEN. They need to show us more about Rhaegar and Lyanna- what happened between them, and make a clear connection to Rhaegar being Jon's father, especially for show-only watchers. Unlike book readers, people who only watch the show have no idea who Rhaegar is and whats going on when they saw that scene (some of them still think Robert is Jon's dad, or even worse, Jon is a bastard of Ned and his sister Lyanna, like Jaime and Cersei, hell, some people dont even know that woman is Lyanna and think shes just a whore that gave birth Ned's bastard,   eh ). maybe a battle at the trident flashback too. I'd love to see the fight between Rhaegar and Robert. 

Michael Fassbender is my ideal Rhaegar Targaryen. I know hes 39 now, a bit too old for this role, but i really really want him to play Rhaegar :((

[Lord Friendzone]

5 hours ago, Marada78 said:

Did you see this infographic by HBO? http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

First they confirm Jon parentage.

Second leaving outside Tyrion they confirm something is going to be revealed about him also.

I don't think they would confirm his father with this infographic. It's implied that Rhaegar is his father but it would ned to be confirmed on the screen. Director would have to say it or D&D.

Or perhaps Tyrion's got nothing to do with this. As Isaac said Jon¨s father will be revealed as Bran needs to get full picture of it. Doubt they'll show Jon as a Targaryens and Tyrion too. It would be overkill. They had plenty of opportunity to hint at Tyrion being a Targaryen but not nearly enough evidence for it unlike with Jon and his parentage. 

[Marada78]

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I don't think they would confirm his father with this infographic. It's implied that Rhaegar is his father but it would ned to be confirmed on the screen. Director would have to say it or D&D.

They confirmed it on the Screen when they had Arthur say that Rhaegar wanted them to be there.

And still they make a point in the infographic to say that ser Arthur did not serve Rhaegar but the MK.

[CrypticWeirwood]

9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm blown away at what lengths people will go, and excuses they will make, in order to not see the obvious.

What you are seeing here is important, both to the story and the world. It’s a painfully familiar recurring part of human nature, an element Martin himself teaches us in his writings and which is also visible in the real world day in and day out:

• Where were there not just one but five Blackfyre rebellions? Heck, why were there any?
• Why does Jon Connington support an impostor who he so desperately wants to believe is his beloved hero’s only son that even he himself now believes this?
• Why does Cersei support Joffery even when he’s wrong?
• Why does Jaime so long support Cersei even when she’s wrong?
• Why is a bad candidate on “our” side preferred over a good candidate on “their” side?
• Where do the familiar (and related) refrains “My mother, drunk or sober?” and “My country, right or wrong?” come from?

Sometimes people who have devoted years of their lives to some cause will do anything to hang on to that cause even after utter defeat:

• They’ll discount and deny all evidence contrary to their viewpoint.
• They’ll make sorry excuses and facile justifications. 
• They’ll forgive their side’s atrocities as trivial peccadilloes yet proclaim the other side’s peccadilloes the worst atrocities in human history. 
• They’ll fabulate fairytales and fantasies, skewing and willingly twisting facts to allow them to draw the very connections and conclusions they started out wanting to be true in the first place, and so go at everything backwards.
• They’ll clutch at any straw they can, even imaginary ones.
• And the more they want to believe, the more they will believe.

People can invest so much of themselves in some cause that that attachment becomes more important that anything, more important than right or wrong, rhyme or reason.  When it extends past the point where all hope is lost, indefatigable support can become unreasoned and irrational.

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

What you are seeing here is important, both to the story and the world. It’s a painfully familiar recurring part of human nature, an element Martin himself teaches us in his writings and which is also visible in the real world day in and day out:

• Where were there not just one but five Blackfyre rebellions? Heck, why were there any?
• Why does Jon Connington support an impostor who he so desperately wants to believe is his beloved hero’s only son that even he himself now believes this?
• Why does Cersei support Joffery even when he’s wrong?
• Why does Jaime so long support Cersei even when she’s wrong?
• Why is a bad candidate on “our” side preferred over a good candidate on “their” side?
• Where do the familiar (and related) refrains “My mother, drunk or sober?” and “My country, right or wrong?” come from?

Sometimes people who have devoted years of their lives to some cause will do anything to hang on to that cause even after utter defeat:

• They’ll discount and deny all evidence contrary to their viewpoint.
• They’ll make sorry excuses and facile justifications. 
• They’ll forgive their side’s atrocities as trivial peccadilloes yet proclaim the other side’s peccadilloes the worst atrocities in human history. 
• They’ll fabulate fairytales and fantasies, skewing and willingly twisting facts to allow them to draw the very connections and conclusions they started out wanting to be true in the first place, and so go at everything backwards.
• They’ll clutch at any straw they can, even imaginary ones.
• And the more they want to believe, the more they will believe.

People can invest so much of themselves in some cause that that attachment becomes more important that anything, more important than right or wrong, rhyme or reason.  When it extends past the point where all hope is lost, indefatigable support can become unreasoned and irrational.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GL8QXYUKatA/T3ORe07boBI/AAAAAAAAA3g/WbX4xEzYmig/w1200-h630-p-nu/the-rock-clapping.gif

[ShadowKitteh]

14 hours ago, Asvpxkvng said:

I fully agree with all of this. After being lost for awhile I am now in acceptance of the obvious. But since you seem to have great handle on this I have still have a few lingering questions I wanna see if you can clear up for me if you would. Why do you think they castes a baby with blonde hair? It's certainly not out of their casting range to get a black haired baby. Not sure what it means but it's a possibility it could mean something right? Also what's your take on the suspicious removed sound bite of his name? These were all the things that swayed me not to see the obvious but now that I do these still bother me. It keeps me wondering if something is afoot. Also totally agree about your Lightbringer hypothesis.

Go back and watch the episode on a large screen TV in HD. The baby is BLACK OF HAIR. There isn't much hair, because he's an infant, but what he has is BLACK.  know I didn't notice it the first time though, because i was too busy noticing it's dark brown, not blue eyes that most infants have, even ones who end up with brown eyes later.

I  take the name thing to be that's she's telling Ned the child is a TARG, which is why Robert wold want to kill him, so it doesn't really matter what his first name is,

[TheGreatStallion]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Go back and watch the episode on a large screen TV in HD. The baby is BLACK OF HAIR. There isn't much hair, because he's an infant, but what he has is BLACK.  know I didn't notice it the first time though, because i was too busy noticing it's dark brown, not blue eyes that most infants have, even ones who end up with brown eyes later.

I  take the name thing to be that's she's telling Ned the child is a TARG, which is why Robert wold want to kill him, so it doesn't really matter what his first name is,

Exactly besides it is a baby so it does not have much hair, and whatever hair he has is very sparse and thin.

Secondly I understand why people can see blond hair or at least light hear it is because of the sunlight on the left top of the baby's head

[MtnLion]

15 hours ago, Cantarella said:

Yes.

Listen: 1:30- 2:30. They played this part right before Jon executed olly and the traitors.

You can hear it in this video, when Jon drawn his sword at 2:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zah6Tvb1fr8

Awesome catch.  

[MtnLion]

11 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I begin to wonder if when this, which has been obvious for years and years, is revealed in the books, as it has now been in the show, will people still try to find a way that it isn't true?   Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.  The end.  

There will always be those that profess that it cannot be so, no matter how it is revealed.  If Bran says it is so, then Bran may be mistaken.  If Jon says it is so, then Jon may be mistaken.  If Wylla says that it is so, then perhaps she is lying, or mistaken.  These same people will refuse any indication that Jon is legitimate, as well.  While it has been clear for the astute reader that Jon is the legitimate heir tot he throne, since the first book.  (I had to wait until I read ASoC to find the answers that I needed.  Hats off to those that found it earliest.)  

[yakisikli123]

19 hours ago, Cantarella said:

Yes.

Listen: 1:30- 2:30. They played this part right before Jon executed olly and the traitors.

You can hear it in this video, when Jon drawn his sword at 2:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zah6Tvb1fr8

 

 

 

 

Maybe Olly was Targaryen 

[yakisikli123]

I understand that all deniers believe the child is Jon, this is enough for the time being.

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

On 27/06/2016 at 2:03 PM, SheepStealer said:

It was confirmed! Lyanna whispered to Ned that "Robert would kill him if he found out. Please protect him. Promise me ,Ned!" 

100℅ R+L=J is confirmed!

That brings the question bellow

"Would Robert kill Lyanna's baby because he was Rhaegar's son or would he kill him just because she had a baby with someone else?" 

Because people argue that as Lyanna said that Robert would kill the baby if he finds out, it means that the baby is a Targaryen. Maybe just because Roberts didn't want Lyanna to be with anyone other than himself... No man would like that anyways. Like Caitlyn wanted to see Jon dead not because she has no heart but because everytime she sees Jon, she remembers that Ned betrayed her.

But I'm convinced that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Otherwise, why would the Prince Rhaegar put Ser Arthur Dayne, the best kings guard at that time, at the tower of joy? 

And Arthur Dayne should've just cooperate with Ned because Ned wouldn't hurt his nephew... anyways, that's another topic...not important really... 

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

On 01/07/2016 at 4:33 PM, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I'm still here laughing at the people who keep denying that Jon is a half Targ half Stark. 

yeah right, Rhaegar told his king guards to stay at the ToJ to protect Lyanna and a Dayne's unborn kid. How logic.

People believe in what they want to. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is not. 

I read a thread about Maergery Tyrell. Someone said 'Maybe she's not dead, who knows? They showed us the high sparrow burning but they didn't show Maergery..." 

And the funniest part is that, I started to interrogate myself... "Yeah! Maybe she's not dead... Ooh shit! wake up baby! What do you want to see? (Olenna's voice) Do you want the show runners to show her skin burning turning her flesh onto a fried lamb?"

Someone compared that tragedy (Sept Trial) to the 9/11... Some people were still alive. They escaped from the twin towers. Maybe Maergery saved her life. 

Ok. They might be true, but I'm sorry. If Maegery is alive, then Khal Drogo is, so is the sorcerer who shouted at Khaleesi (You will not hear me scream)!

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

On 02/07/2016 at 9:30 AM, Asvpxkvng said:

Mmmmm I swear these writers are tricky as hell. I had to go back and forth a couple of times to make sure because they made sure to use the part of Fire and Blood that sounds like any regular somber music so no one would even notice! Great catch! Gots to believe now.

totally agree with you. Perverse. They sit there playing with people... And after you wonder why I don't trust people in this world?

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

On 30/06/2016 at 7:07 AM, Millimidget said:

No, that's part of the given backstory to Jon. So, he believes the lie. Which is unusual, because usually he has a strong grasp on the truth of things.

How do you know he believes the lie? Dorne is in the south. Where is the lie here? 

[MtnLion]

7 hours ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

But I'm convinced that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Otherwise, why would the Prince Rhaegar put Ser Arthur Dayne, the best kings guard at that time, at the tower of joy? 

And Arthur Dayne should've just cooperate with Ned because Ned wouldn't hurt his nephew... anyways, that's another topic...not important really... 

Ned was one of the leaders of a rebellion that had seen all of the known Targaryens slaughtered.  But, you are aware of something amiss in the Kingsguard fighting Ned and friends to the death.  Reflect on the vow that Brienne recites twice (so far), to Catelyn and to Sansa.  "... Die for you if need be."  

What was Brienne?  She was no ordinary knight, she was a Kingsguard for Renly.  It is painfully obvious that the Kingsguard are fighting to protect a Targaryen king at the tower.  If they win, they can keep their location secret a bit longer, and they are unaccustomed to losing.  (Every Kingsguard that we have seen in battle has killed at least a dozen before being killed or laid low.)  

To back it all up, Bran asked Ned about the best knights, and Ned's response was the Kingsguard, they were a shining example to the world.  Was there one that best among them?  Ser Arthur Dayne, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.  Clearly Ned knows that they were doing as they had pledged to do, by standing in his way to that tower, and giving their lives in defense.  

[Darksky]

It's funny to see all those updated House Targaryen family trees on various websites. It's finally happened.