Final thoughts on Season 6.

[permaximum]

If it wasn't for the whole story of ASOIAF coming together, amazing directing of the last two episodes, GRRM's "hold the door" reveal and Jon Snow's hyped resurrection, this season was the worst, by far. I couldn't believe how bad were the writing and the isolated storylines of this season. All things considered, season 1 is the best and season 5 and 6 battled for the last spot by a large margin. Still, the worst season award goes to this one.

BTW I may sound like a book reader, but I'm not. So I'm not biased.

However, I must open a paranthese for Miguel Sapochnik. His directing was above everyone else in the series and I loved the directing in all 4 episodes he directed so far. His first job, "The Gift" in season 5 was not a great episode as far as the story and writing go but I noticed the amazing quality of directing as soon as I started to watch that episode. And then the Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards and the Winds of Winter. In those episodes there are such crucial details that almost none noticed but they developed the feel of those episodes wonderfully. For example in the finale episode, each one of the scenes justified the title "the Winds of Winter" by directing alone. And his decision to create a scene for the preperations (dressing) of major characters for the trial and the choice of piano for the score of such a scene. Very bold for GOT and very creative. And in the Battle of the Bastards, I didn't believe the showrunners could write such a strong scene like Jon Snow's burial and then I wasn't surprised to see that it wasn't in the script and he completely improvised and created that scene alone. He should won emmies for both episodes.

 

[Rubicante]

On 7/4/2016 at 2:45 AM, protar said:

Better than season five as it had less sandsnakes and less gross misogyny. But still fairly poor compared to the earlier seasons. The show is clearly relying on pleasing audience's with shocks so that they won't question and probe. For example Cersei blowing up the Sept is a shocking event and the scene was set up beautifully with great tension...but none of it makes any sense. Why does anyone accept Cersei as Queen when she just blew up the Great Sept? What happened to the now hostile Tyrell army stationed at the city? It's things like these which the show now overlooks. I don't think this is due to incompetence, I think at this point D+D just know that they don't have to worry about that sort of attention to detail. They know people will just buy it.

I totally agree with you.  I will admit there have been a few episodes where some type of shocking event distracts me from aspects leading up to said event which don't make any sense.  But then afterwards, I stop and think.  And then I start noticing plot holes and logical problems.

Your example of Cersei blowing up the Great Sept of Baelor is a good example.  As I am watching this event build up, I am questioning...

1. Why has Loras' trial started without King Tommen present?  I'm pretty sure Margaery would want Tommen there, not to mention the High Sparrow in order to demonstrate the alliance between the Faith and the Crown.

2. Considering how the last time the High Sparrow tried to get Cersei to leave the Red Keep resulted in one of the sparrows getting his head ripped off, don't you think he should have anticipated some form of resistance from Cersei in attending her trial?  For a person who is being accused of regicide, you would think that some type of guard would be established in advance to ensure that this person is being closely monitored.

3. How many sparrows did the High Sparrow send to get Cersei? Three?  So not only does he send sparrows to get Cersei, which didn't work last time, he actually sends less sparrows.

4. Why does Lancel suddenly become drawn to the activities of a little kid? 

5. Why do the faith militant prevent everyone from leaving the Great Sept of Baelor at the conclusion of Loras' trial?

6. Is a slowly burning, unsupervised candle the best way to ensure that the wildfire gets ignited? 

I'm sure I could come up with more, but generally D & D's stuff doesn't make it past the people on this forum.  Perhaps the majority of non-book readers, but not us.

[DMC]

Using this thread because I'm lazy and creating topics are for noobs

I think season 6 somewhat redeemed the mishegoss of 5.  As every amped-up bro-fan will remind you, The Door and the last 2 were totes awesome.  And I agree.  Plus, the bad was not nearly as bad as lotsa 5.  That whole season took me out of it.  To the apex of Shireen's burning, I just no longer cared about the show to the point just stopping was under serious consideration so as to not ruin the excitement of the books.  I never felt that this season, and that is saying something.

OTOH, seventy percent of the season demonstrated the show will almost certainly never recapture the high level it was on from 1-4 and consequently will never be in the discussion of great television that it had every opportunity to join.  Consistency and attention to detail be damned on the race to the finish; D&D have been pretty brazen about wantonly compromising quality for expedience.  Completely understandable.  I try to put things in perspective and like playing the comparative game, so let's look at a completely random collection of seasons six based on shows I've watched:

Shows Unquestionably Better the GoT:

Breaking Bad - Ozymandias FTW

Sopranos - If we're starting at "Members Only," there's actually some lulls that resemble GoT season 6.  However, if you begin at "Soprano Home Movies," Chase (and really Winter) ended on an undisputed high note that frankly makes any season of GoT look amateur.

The Wire - ______________

Mad Men - Oof.  I'll take BoB and tits & dragons over this one.  The last season was somewhat redeeming, but not much unless you really love Coke.

West Wing - Meh.  I guess started out strong with Leo's heart attack, but mostly meandered afterwards as they figured out how to end the show.

Shows on About GoT's Level:

Dexter - Tom Hanks' son gets weird with Latino pizza-face.  A slight parallel to GoT in terms of being of higher quality after a disastrous 5.

Lost - I really think GoT is the new Lost in many ways.  This is one of them:  Season 6 reminded and even played upon the quality of past seasons, but ultimately disappointed.

House - ROAD House.  I dunno, trying to think of other shows.  Using this as a demonstration of how pretty good shows can go down the shitter six year in, which brings me to:

True Blood:  Yikes.

Honorable Mention:  Penny Dreadful - Sure it got canceled for poor ratings and otherwise likely would have continued one way or another.  But John Logan had a vision for Vanessa Ives' fate and executed it in a heartbreaking fashion at the end of Season 3.  Think about how GoT would be viewed if it ended at Season 3 - which seems to be D&D's original goal.

In conclusion, it definitely sucks GoT will in all likelihood never reach, or even end, at the heights of the first five named above.  That being said, the quality the show has achieved overall is laudable; and the ability to rely upon at least one or two super-momenty-awesome eps a year is a testament to D&D.  I was just rewatching season 1 of Lost and couldn't help but think about how even those offerings - when it was at its best - could/would be torn apart by the likes of the tragically pathetic internet fans we all are, know, and love.  So, for fun, let's review the Breaking Bad series finale "Felina" with a rant-and-rave eye:

• So none of the presumably thousands of cops notice Walt because he took refuge in a snowed-in car?  LOL, ridiculously horrible mistake that has no logic.  
• On top of that, the key of said car is miraculously hidden between the visor?  This show has jumped the shark, reminds me of the retardedness of Arya getting repeatedly stabbed and being all good.  
• Once Walt makes his way back to NM, he apparently has the ability to make everyone he talks to stupid - the Gray Matter assistant nonsensically gives him Elliott and Gretchen's HOME ADDRESS.  
• How does Walt all of a sudden have $9 million?!?  He clearly only brought $100 K to the NH bar, and Robert Forster was pretty clear on what would happen if Walt went AWOL.  
• Are we just supposed to believe he conveniently made his way back to the unabomber shack?  Another plot fail.  
• Speaking of which - Walt managed to talk to Skyler in her house.  Apparently the FBI was not only awed by the shot that hides Walt in the frame, they were tricked by it!  Worst Stakeout Ever.
• Finally, I love how the neo-nazi fucks just let Walt park in a totally conspicuous way.  Surprised they didn't help him load the M60.  Almost as convenient as Lydia choosing the ricin stevia. 

Man am I glad that's not how I watch television.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

On 7/10/2016 at 10:14 PM, Rubicante said:

I totally agree with you.  I will admit there have been a few episodes where some type of shocking event distracts me from aspects leading up to said event which don't make any sense.  But then afterwards, I stop and think.  And then I start noticing plot holes and logical problems.

Your example of Cersei blowing up the Great Sept of Baelor is a good example.  As I am watching this event build up, I am questioning...

1. Why has Loras' trial started without King Tommen present?  I'm pretty sure Margaery would want Tommen there, not to mention the High Sparrow in order to demonstrate the alliance between the Faith and the Crown.

2. Considering how the last time the High Sparrow tried to get Cersei to leave the Red Keep resulted in one of the sparrows getting his head ripped off, don't you think he should have anticipated some form of resistance from Cersei in attending her trial?  For a person who is being accused of regicide, you would think that some type of guard would be established in advance to ensure that this person is being closely monitored.

3. How many sparrows did the High Sparrow send to get Cersei? Three?  So not only does he send sparrows to get Cersei, which didn't work last time, he actually sends less sparrows.

4. Why does Lancel suddenly become drawn to the activities of a little kid? 

5. Why do the faith militant prevent everyone from leaving the Great Sept of Baelor at the conclusion of Loras' trial?

6. Is a slowly burning, unsupervised candle the best way to ensure that the wildfire gets ignited? 

I'm sure I could come up with more, but generally D & D's stuff doesn't make it past the people on this forum.  Perhaps the majority of non-book readers, but not us.

oh JFC.  This is literally "ASOIAF Book fans are just plain smarter and more perceptive than other people."  What a load of baloney.  People who read asoiaf are of totally average intelligence.  

Ask yourself.  Do you ask such ridiculous questions about any other show / book / movie?  No.  you don't.  Because they are questions that are easily answered by subtext or thinking even just 1 millimeter below the surface.  

If anything you're making the argument for the opposite case of how much more brilliant ASOIAF book fans are than the rest of the universe.  That is to say that apparently some people on this forum are simply unable to do any kind of thinking of their own and need to be spoon fed irrelevant and banal details at the expense of storytelling.  

[JonSnow4President]

12 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

oh JFC.  This is literally "ASOIAF Book fans are just plain smarter and more perceptive than other people."  What a load of baloney.  People who read asoiaf are of totally average intelligence.  

Ask yourself.  Do you ask such ridiculous questions about any other show / book / movie?  No.  you don't.  Because they are questions that are easily answered by subtext or thinking even just 1 millimeter below the surface.  

If anything you're making the argument for the opposite case of how much more brilliant ASOIAF book fans are than the rest of the universe.  That is to say that apparently some people on this forum are simply unable to do any kind of thinking of their own and need to be spoon fed irrelevant and banal details at the expense of storytelling.  

On phone (Comcast deserves the Cersei treatment since this is the4th night it's gone out), so please excuse the short length . The major problem is that those explanations are ludicrous or defy something already established in the show, far beyond "banal details". Arya, Sansa, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Stannis, Davos, Dany, Tyrion, Yara, Theon, Everything Dorne, and the Tyrells have all had major logic fails or universe defying things happen that Can't be adequately quickly explained via common sense. Others, like the Hound this season, or Loras, or Mel, just fall remarkably flat, with their stories accomplishing nothing whatsoever.  It's not like I'm listing a small fraction of the cast. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

@JonSnow4President

the "plot holes" listed by the person I quoted are all very easily explained or don't need to be explained because they aren't holes in the first place but rather make sense once you consider context and character. 

i could go through each one but I think people ought to be able to use their own brains and put the pieces together themselves.  Like any filthy casual does.  

[Rubicante]

12 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

oh JFC.  This is literally "ASOIAF Book fans are just plain smarter and more perceptive than other people."  What a load of baloney.  People who read asoiaf are of totally average intelligence.  

Ask yourself.  Do you ask such ridiculous questions about any other show / book / movie?  No.  you don't.  Because they are questions that are easily answered by subtext or thinking even just 1 millimeter below the surface.  

If anything you're making the argument for the opposite case of how much more brilliant ASOIAF book fans are than the rest of the universe.  That is to say that apparently some people on this forum are simply unable to do any kind of thinking of their own and need to be spoon fed irrelevant and banal details at the expense of storytelling.  

Okay, you're right about me having an unfair bias, which I need to drop and I apologize for.  The truth is I don't know who on this forum are book readers and who are not.  However, from my experience on this message board over the years, most people are quick to point out many things that don't make any sense.  Could it be that the majority of us just enjoy nitpicking?  I'll own up to that to a certain degree.  Do the majority of us nitpickers think we are smarter than other people?  Possibly, although I personally don't claim to be anything but a person of average intelligence.  However, I do feel experienced in understanding what good story telling is as a result of reading George R.R. Martin's books.  Big moments in his books are "earned".  They are set up well, and they are executed well.

I also understand that GRRM has the luxury of something that the showrunners D & D do not have, that being time.  D & D have a deadline to produce an entire season every single year.  GRRM seemingly has no deadlines, even though he should have had a deadline to finish writing the series before the show concluded.  As a book reader, I cannot express how disappointing it is that show has surpassed the book material, and will tell the ending of the series before George ever does.  D & D are probably also completely burnt out, and are trying to do the best they can.  But it seems as though they tend to go for big shocking events too often without the proper buildup.  Or they force characters to be in certain locations or stories because they need to give their leading actors more screen time (ex. Season 5 Sansa in Winterfell).  This is what I find to be so frustrating about the show.

What I don't agree with you on is calling my questions "ridiculous".  I think the six questions I asked related to the wildfire explosion of the Great Sept of Baelor to be reasonable questions.  There aren't any quick answers to these questions.  If there were, I wouldn't bring them up.

Lastly, don't think I haven't come down hard on any other tv series or films.  The newest Battlestar Gallactica series, which I thought was phenomenal, had possibly the worst series finale I have ever seen as it failed to address many questions which had been building up for years.  The new Star Wars movie, which I thought looked fantastic, also has many problems in terms of setting things up and reusing plot elements from previous Star Wars movies.