Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, King Crow said:

Normally you have to earn someones trust. You wouldn't trust someone you barely know. My evidence that Val is untrustworthy is that most people you barely know are untrustworthy.

Also there has not been any texual evidence that proved Val is trustworthy, none.

Not even when Jon releases her to go fetch Tormund and the other wildlings and she returns on time as she promised?

Not even when Val knelt to Selyse because she knew that was the right thing to do in that moment for the good of Jon?

Adding: Or the fact that even though Val is kept as a hostage in the tower, she is allowed a bit of free range outside of her room. And on top of that she is not kept in isolation.

[King Crow]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What do you think Jon is struggling with personally with Val, with his NW vows and politically with Stannis and the wildlings and Bowen Marsh???

I don't ship Jon and Val because he is cute and she is hot. The story and the characters are showing me what is happening. It is making narrative sense. And you responded way too fast to have actually read any book evidence I gave to you before you just shot it down. 

I certainly did read all your points, and I've read the thread you refered to me up thread. I still don't see anything that makes Val seem trustworthy.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, King Crow said:

I certainly did read all your points, and I've read the thread you refered to me up thread. I still don't see anything that makes Val seem trustworthy.

 

Not even when Jon releases her to go fetch Tormund and the other wildlings and she returns on time as she promised?

Not even when Val knelt to Selyse because she knew that was the right thing to do in that moment for the good of Jon?

Or the fact that even though Val is kept as a hostage in the tower, she is allowed a bit of free range outside of her room. And on top of that she is not kept in isolation.

[King Crow]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not even when Jon releases her to go fetch Tormund and the other wildlings and she returns on time as she promised?

Not even when Val knelt to Selyse because she knew that was the right thing to do in that moment for the good of Jon?

Doesn't Mel advise Jon not to send out scouts, and devises a plan to help get what she thought would be his sister. Trying to win someone over is not the same as being trustworthy. Mance could be up to something, and if he is Val will most likely act as his agent. We can't be sure if her loyalties are to the wildlings or to Mance.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, King Crow said:

1) Agreed, but it might favor Jon/Sansa

How?

Just now, King Crow said:

2 Disagree, in a way your first point refutes your second. If we don't know what the political climate will be how can you be certain there won't be a benefit to marrying Jon to Sansa at some point. I can think of scenarios where there would be some benefit.

The political landscape will change. To me it seems a lot of the old ways of doing things, especially in a political sense, will be drastically different. I honestly have no idea how Jon marrying Sansa would be a good/positive thing unless things are exactly the same afterwards, and even then I see no benefit to either Jon or Sansa, or the Starks.

Just now, King Crow said:

3) Sure its character driven, but there is more to a character than just who they are romantically involved with. Putting duty before his personal feelings could be within their character.

Jon has made this decision already, he chose love and honour above duty. 

“Snow?” said Tormund Giantsbane. “You look like your father’s bloody head just rolled out o’ that paper.”

<snip>

“I won’t say you’re wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?”
Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”

 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, King Crow said:

Normally you have to earn someones trust. You wouldn't trust someone you barely know. My evidence that Val is untrustworthy is that most people you barely know are untrustworthy.

Also there has not been any texual evidence that proved Val is trustworthy, none.

I'm sorry, but this makes zero sense. "Most people you barely know are untrustworthy" is not evidence, it's a biased opinion. 

And there's lots of evidence that Val is very trustworthy, from Ghost trusting and liking her, to her coming back with Tormund when she said she would, and more. Those are in the text and are not someone's opinion based on nothing.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, King Crow said:

Doesn't Mel advise Jon not to send out scouts, and devises a plan to help get what she thought would be his sister. Trying to win someone over is not the same as being trustworthy. Mance could be up to something, and if he is Val will most likely act as his agent. We can't be sure if her loyalties are to the wildlings or to Mance.

Mel interprets her flame reading incorrectly just about every time she stares. Her final vision may be her most accurate, but it was only for her at the time. Jon already knows that what Mel tells him is not accurate and he was warned by Dalla and Val not to trust such magic.

Jon went behind Stannis' back and released Val into the wild where she could have blended right back into the trees forever. She did not. She went and did her duty, kept her promise to Jon, and returned knowing she would be a captive again... because she sees herself as Jon's wife already. She is loyal to Jon, not trying to win him over.

We can't be sure if her loyalties are to the wildlings or Mance??? Well, first off, the lesson readers and Jon are all learning right now is that there is really no such division between wildlings and people south of the wall. Mance is a wildling, so yeah, Val is also loyal to her people. One thing Jon recognizes and she respects in him.

Please show me some examples of things that tell a different, more sinister version of Val, or Mance, that you see.

[King Crow]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm sorry, but this makes zero sense. "Most people you barely know are untrustworthy" is not evidence, it's a biased opinion. 

And there's lots of evidence that Val is very trustworthy, from Ghost trusting and liking her, to her coming back with Tormund when she said she would, and more. Those are in the text and are not someone's opinion based on nothing.

I'm not saying "people suck."  I am saying that confidence and trust have  to be cultivated.  How could you expect the trust of someone you barely know to mean more to you than the trust of a loved one.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there's lots of evidence that Val is very trustworthy, from Ghost trusting and liking her, to her coming back with Tormund when she said she would, and more. Those are in the text and are not someone's opinion based on nothing.

Personally I would trust Ghost more than any human oath. From what we have seen the wolves are there to protect the children and we already have seen that they know who is untrustworthy *cough* Rolph and Sybel*cough*. Similarly they know who to trust like Val.

[King Crow]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Personally I would trust Ghost more than any human oath. From what we have seen the wolves are there to protect the children and we already have seen that they know who is untrustworthy *cough* Rolph and Sybel*cough*. Similarly they know who to trust like Val.

The wolves also pick up on their human's feelings. Ghost may have liked Val, because Jon is infatuated with Her. The same way Ghost attacked Tyrion.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, King Crow said:

I'm not saying "people suck."  I am saying that confidence and trust have  to be cultivated.  How could you expect the trust of someone you barely know to mean more to you than the trust of a loved one.

Yes, and that's what's happened. Jon and Val trust each other because each has shown and proven to the other that they're trustworthy. I won't give examples yet again since plenty have been posted already, by me and @The Fattest Leech. And who are the "loved ones" that would trust each other implicitly here, Jon and Sansa? Because at this point in the story, Jon has plenty of reasons to trust Val, and pretty much none to trust Mrs Lannister. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

I'm sorry @King Crow, I don't really see what you are basing your assumptions that Jon/Sansa will be a good match either politically or personally, other than wish-fulfillment. Jon/Val and Sansa/Sandor are actually backed up by the text as romantic possibilities for the characters, and as to the political matches, we have absolutely no idea how Westeros will look like at the end of ADOS, leave alone marriages for the characters.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, King Crow said:

I'm not saying "people suck."  I am saying that confidence and trust have  to be cultivated.  How could you expect the trust of someone you barely know to mean more to you than the trust of a loved one.

Because Jon tested her and she passed the test.

Because Ghost likes her (without spells) and the direwolves are part of the Stark kids psyche.

Because at Winterfell, Jon and Sansa had little interaction with each other and maintain a sibling level of respect. We have both Jon and Sansa's internal thoughts. Please show me where they think romantically of each other. Please show me how the idea of Starks not expanding their loyalties by tying in with other families makes better political sense.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Personally I would trust Ghost more than any human oath. From what we have seen the wolves are there to protect the children and we already have seen that they know who is untrustworthy *cough* Rolph and Sybel*cough*. Similarly they know who to trust like Val.

Exactly that. Come on, Martin didn't write this to show that Val is untrustworthy or unimportant:

“Did you follow me as well?” Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. “Snow,” it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
“Have you been trying to steal my wolf?” he asked her.”

[King Crow]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because Jon tested her and she passed the test.

Because Ghost likes her (without spells) and the direwolves are part of the Stark kids psyche.

Because at Winterfell, Jon and Sansa had little interaction with each other and maintain a sibling level of respect. We have both Jon and Sansa's internal thoughts. Please show me where they think romantically of each other. Please show me how the idea of Starks not expanding their loyalties by tying in with other families makes better political sense.

I think people are taking things that are just infatuation and are proposing they are more meaningful. Dany has fantasized about Darrio "stealing" her. Does that mean they too will be married.

There are no romantic feelings between Jon and Sansa when they were children, but your relationship as children is not indicative of your relationship as adults. From events in their chapter it can be inferred that their relationship will be a lot different when they reunite. It will be dynamic, satisfying, and quite possibly romantic.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Off-topic for the OP, I guess:

The Jon/Val and Jon/Mel dichotomy in ADWD is really interesting. In a way, Val seems like the "icy" counterpart to "firey" Mel.

Jon very consciously rejects Mel, though she continually tries to win him over, while he is effortlessly attracted to Val. 

Could have interesting implications for future revelations regarding Jon 

[BeeStark]

no noo nooo noooo

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, King Crow said:

I think people are taking things that are just infatuation and are proposing they are more meaningful. 1. Dany has fantasized about Darrio "stealing" her. Does that mean they too will be married.

There are no romantic feelings between Jon and Sansa when they were children, but your relationship as children is not indicative of your relationship as adults. 2. From events in their chapter it can be inferred that their relationship will be a lot different when they reunite. It will be dynamic, satisfying, and quite possibly romantic.

1. Nope. Dany only had a fantasy because Daario never went through the "ritual" of stealing (marriage). And, Dany has left Daario in a very nasty predicament where he is set to betray her for leaving him as hostage to the Yunkai.

2. What events? This is what posters who don't see what you are getting at are asking for. There is no evidence, gut feelings don't count, so please post what you see. I can understand Sansa mellowing on the "bastard brother" identity, but not to fall into his arms for ??? reasons.

Sansa is set to have her own romances, union, heroics somewhere else with someone else. Same as Jon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, King Crow said:

The wolves also pick up on their human's feelings. Ghost may have liked Val, because Jon is infatuated with Her. The same way Ghost attacked Tyrion.

Robb wouldn't had a reason to feel anything negative towards Rolph and Sybel. That doens't mean that Grey Wind was feeling the same. It seems that what Cat told was correct the wolves are sent by the Gods to protect them.

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly that. Come on, Martin didn't write this to show that Val is untrustworthy or unimportant:

“Did you follow me as well?” Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. “Snow,” it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
“Have you been trying to steal my wolf?” he asked her.”

I just love that quote.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Robb wouldn't had a reason to feel anything negative towards Rolph and Sybel. That doens't mean that Grey Wind was feeling the same. It seems that what Cat told was correct the wolves are sent by the Gods to protect them.

I just love that quote.

Me too. I love it as much as I love the one below. Which, btw, further links Ghost, Jon and Val to the Old Gods and the north. 

“He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”