Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

53 minutes ago, lidsa said:

Your opinion or knowledge don't matter for something that is clearly defined, which emotional abuse is. And Catelyn's behaviour doesn't fit it. Just like it's not emotional abuse if a stranger that lives in your apartment building ignores you.

He says

He is talking about verbal and physical. He said nothing about emotional.

53 minutes ago, lidsa said:

Since Catelyn is not related to Jon, that is the only way that she could have emotionally abused him. And GRRM says she didn't.

So you believe that only people related with someone can emotionaly abuse him? Best joke of the year! 

 

Actually you know what I have lost every respect or interest I might had for this discussion. Defending something like Cat's actions is horrible. Ignore list.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Goddamn I hate "shipping". Why is everybody so keen for these characters to fuck their relatives? You people are gross, and from me that's saying something

[lidsa]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So you believe that only people related with someone can emotionaly abuse him? 

In the way you purport Catelyn did, yes, of course. Or are you actually suggesting that ignoring a stranger is emotionally abusing them? 

Because all Catelyn did, as per GRRM, is distance herself from Jon. And since Catelyn is not his mother or step-mother or otherwise a caregiver, ignoring him is perfectly fine. Unless of course you also want to accuse cook #272 or stableboy #91 of emotionally abusing Jon.

[Sly Wren]

On July 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

This is true for the Stark in Winterfell. I agree. There is a great chance that Jon won't be that Stark in Winterfell, especially when/if he finds out about his Targaryen father and how he is most likely a "legit" child (not a bastard). Jon may decide to take a new last name entirely??? Jon could be King in the North while one of his Stark siblings hold Winterfell.

Bloody hell, this thread moves fast!

While I can't take "Jon as Targaryen" as a settled thing, I do think that no matter what Jon's bastard status is important. And fits with what Ned's thinks of him.

That said, since according to Old Nan there was at one point a Stark in Winterfell and a Stark at the Wall, I could see the Starks having multiple ruling "stations." But Jon really wants Winterfell--feels guilty about it, but it fits. And fits with the Bael Tale.

On July 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I think Craster's curse is different than the Stark curse because one probably has to do more with broken pacts and one is an abomination against the gods... which are similar, but different, like how violating guest rights is a violation, but not the same as incest children.

This comparison Ygritte makes with Craster to Jon is how Jon is a typical crow. Well, Jon later shows how he is not a typical crow when he lets the wildlings through.

Right--but she's comparing Jon to Craster, who is not a typical crow. That Craster's father did steal a wildling woman BUT flew back to the Wall afterwards. Which is arguably exactly what Jon does.

And while Jon is not a typical crow, he most certainly chooses the Watch over his beloved. And he chooses his family over the objections of the Watch--wants to redefine the Watch and his role, not abandon it. Jon's all about wolves, swords, and sworn brothers. 

As for the curse--I agree that Craster is different. Craster is vile. But there's a history of blood sacrifice in the North. And of sacrifice of children. And the speculation that "Snowgate" was named for the potential sacrifice of bastards makes a lot of horrible sense. So, Craster may not be an entire anomaly.

But as for Jon--one way or another, Stark blood being in Winterfell is really, really important. And Starks typically marry in the North and even marry cousins. Jon wants to have a family at Winterfell. And the magical idea of Stark blood guarding Winterfell--that ties into Jon's and other Starks staying in Winterfell.

On July 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I think there are many more links to Jon ending up with who he is starting to identify himself as, in addition to Sansa in her own storyline being linked to other "knights" as well.

Yup! And Sansa thinks of Jon as a "black knight of the Wall." 

On July 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

If there is any symbolism in the Sansa-snow castle scene, I tend to see it as how the Stark kids will come back together with some work because the pack survives.

Very possible. Though, as @LmL and others have noted, Sansa, like Val and Mel before her, has a fair amount of Night's Queen imagery to her. As Jon has Night's King imagery.

But in the castle scene, Sansa talks back to Baelish. She rebuilds her castle. And when it gets smashed, when her perfect innocent, beautiful world gets smashed, for once Sansa does NOT just cry. The she wolf comes out. 

Quote

They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls." Storm, Sansa VII

No more crying Sansa. Territorial Sansa is defending her territory. Really think that kid's going home to Winterfell to a "black knight of the wall"

On July 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

This line about Arya does make me wonder if she will survive? "Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands."

Interesting. . . or if the things Arya plans might not come to fruition?

Might also be that since Winter isn't there yet, it can't empower them--Arya can't have her "weapon" as a snowball. And the snow just melts in Robb's hair. But when winter actually comes. . . things might be different for Arya. Not for Robb, who died before.  But maybe for Arya. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, lidsa said:

Your opinion or knowledge don't matter for something that is clearly defined, which emotional abuse is. And Catelyn's behaviour doesn't fit it. Just like it's not emotional abuse if a stranger that lives in your apartment building ignores you.

He says

Since Catelyn is not related to Jon, that is the only way that she could have emotionally abused him. And GRRM says she didn't.

What. Are you seriously saying that someone can only suffer emotional abuse from a relative? 

And more, the way Martin talks about that suggests that although she didn't "verbally abuse or attack him", she did not treat him well. Also, why didn't you quote the whole thing? Because it wouldn't help your case much, perhaps? 

CHRONOLOGY, TIMELINE, AND CATELYN

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

[lidsa]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue

So did Ned.

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

Yes, this would've been the best outcome. Catelyn shouldn't have given in to Ned's antics, she should've made him pack Jon off to the Cerwyns or another equally loyal house. Both Catelyn and Jon would've been better off for it.  

But that's not Catelyn's fault, that's Ned's. He was the only one who could change the situation.

[Le Cygne]

Context. She says in the songs the men at the Wall are called the black knights of the Wall. She thought of Uncle Benjen that way. And realizes they weren't like that.

And again as noted upthread, in the snow castle scene, there's destruction at the end. There's very dark symbolism there, that reads like LF attempting to rape Sansa.

[Sly Wren]

On July 21, 2016 at 11:45 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

This is where it seems Jon parallels Rhaegar more than what seems clear on page. History is important here.

Really? Jon abandoned Ygritte for his sworn brotherhood. Rhaegar, if he is the father of Lyanna's child, seemed to fully intend to come back--at least according to what he told Jaime. Jon seems to believe he's given Ygritte up for his vows. 

If there's a "father" parallel, that would seem to fit much better if Jon's father was a "sworn brother."

On July 21, 2016 at 11:45 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Rhaegar dies by blade as he crosses the trident for his lady love that he kept safe in a guarded tower.

But that's not Jon at all. He abandons Ygritte for his oaths. 

On July 21, 2016 at 11:45 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon dies by blade by letting the wildlings cross the wall for his lady love who he kept guarded in a tower.

But Jon thinks that he's not the one to steal Val. She's not his lady love. He finds her "comely" and even thinks she looks right with Ghost and imagines her as his wife at Winterfell, even though he'd prefer Ygritte.

But he hasn't stolen her. He's stabbed for of trying to change the Watch, not just for the wildlings. 

[Sly Wren]

On July 21, 2016 at 0:35 PM, Britisher said:

On the side:

From Jon's perspective marriage to Sansa would allow him to consolidate his support across the North and the Vale (and possibly even the Riverlands), whilst allowing him to remain at Winterfell/Castle Black. Marrying Val would serve little politically: freefolk are freefolk. Marrying Daenerys could force him south and leave him without support from much of the North.

 Jon flat out insists that Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

On July 21, 2016 at 0:35 PM, Britisher said:

From Sansa's perspective marriage to Jon would allow her to remain at Winterfell and it could safe-guard her from being forced to remarry. Marrying Tyrion or Aegon would drag her into the wars of the south.

I think Sansa will end up at Winterfell due to the heavy symbolism of the snow castle chapter, and that Jon, Arya and Bran will join her.

On the bolded: Martin has given Sansa weapons to get the Vale Army--the info she learned but has not yet processed at Lysa's Moon Door Confessional. And her uncanny effect on Sweetrobin, as well as his dependence on her.

Neither of those things has played out to any fruition yet. They are just hanging there. Now, maybe Martin will never have Sansa process Lysa's confession, but I doubt it.

Stannis' army came out of nowhere to squash Mance after we only see Davos get that letter, but no plan is formed on page. Similarly, I won't be surprised if Sansa hears gossip about Arya at Winterfell and then, out of nowhere, shows up with the Vale Knights while Jon is retaking Winterfell.

As for Arya and Bran coming home--fingers crossed on that. Bran's homecoming seems more likely that I'd originally thought. But I still worry about Arya.

[kissdbyfire]

Well, Jon believes Bran and Rickon are dead, so he tells Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa Lady Lannister. So what? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, Jon believes Bran and Rickon are dead, so he tells Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa Lady Lannister. So what? 

My question would had been if even after Rickon returns home the majority of the Northerner will care. I believe that LN2.0 is the perfect time for the people to decide who will be the new King and make someone worthy the King. 

[Sly Wren]

21 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Context. She says in the songs the men at the Wall are called the black knights of the Wall. She thought of Uncle Benjen that way. And realizes they weren't like that.

Yes--in Game, about Yoren. But she isn't sure what to think. This is part of her beginning realization that many of those who call themselves knights aren't "true knights." And she notes the discrepancy between Ned's idea of honor (taking the black) and the southern idea (refusing, and thus Ned must resort to the dungeons).

Throughout the novels, Sansa's been holding to her ideal of knighthood, an ideal she shares with Ned and Bran. An ideal Jon also holds--staying true to the ideals of a sworn brotherhood and his oaths to protect.

Quote

And again as noted upthread, in the snow castle scene, there's destruction at the end.

A destruction Sansa reacts to by beheading Robin's toy. With violence and symbolic vengeance. Staking the head on the the wall. She doesn't fold. When her territory is attacked, she takes it back, even though others around her are aghast. Potentially shows her mindset re: her territory and her willingness to defend even the ruins of said territory.

Quote

There's very dark symbolism there, that reads like LF attempting to rape Sansa.

Yes--the Baelish stuff is horrifying. And makes me think again that a conflict is inevitable. But in the scene, it comes after she's staked her claim to Winterfell. Literally.

[Le Cygne]

The true knights theme is explored in depth over and over and over again in Sansa's story with Sandor, not Jon. Sandor is Sansa's knight.

And the conflict with LF is throughout the entire scene. He strides over the wall, he says can I come into your castle, she says don't break it, etc.

[Britisher]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. Because when Jon wakes up from his stabbings (however) he will know the truth about many things in the world he was wrong about. His own legitimacy is one. Bran will have a chance to connect with Jon as he is unconcious and Bran (who has a wealth of knowledge by now) will teach Jon a few things. Jon will awake a MAN because the BOY was killed and now he KNOWS it... and it will be awesome.

2. So, are you saying you do believe in Val's importance to Jon?

3. Here are two quick examples. This is all I have time for at the moment because I have to get ready to go to dinner with friends. The rest of the homework is up to you.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

[Bran] "It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

 

When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he'd left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth. Some of the cakes had pinenuts baked in them and some had blackberries. Bran ate one of each, and still did not know which sort he liked the best. One day there would be Starks in Winterfell again, he told himself, and then he'd send for the Liddles and pay them back a hundredfold for every nut and berry.

 

4. So, Val is important to Jon?

Sorry for the late response: this thread is moving so quickly I didn't notice this!

1.Sorry but I just don't see how this all fits in.

2. I'm not denying the possibility of Val and Jon ending up together or that Val and Jon are connected in some capacity, what I'm saying is that within Jon's fantasy Val is there out of convenience - she is playing the role of his wife because there's nobody else to fulfil that role, that doesn't mean they will end up together any more than Jon will end up with Sansa.

3. Yes I actually just reread that chapter today and was about to mention it although I wouldn't say it necessarily underlines that Bran will restore Winterfell, or that he even wants to restore it, but that there will be a Stark in Winterfell again.

4. I'm not sure, but probably.

[Sly Wren]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, Jon believes Bran and Rickon are dead, so he tells Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa Lady Lannister. So what? 

So, Stannis is offering it to Jon, and Jon is refusing. Sees it as hers.

Point being: he's unlikely to want to take it from his "sisters" or "brothers" wholesale. Has felt guilty on that score for a WHILE, wanting "another man's birthright."

An interesting mindset, is all re: Jon getting Winterfell. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

My question would had been if even after Rickon returns home the majority of the Northerner will care. I believe that LN2.0 is the perfect time for the people to decide who will be the new King and make someone worthy the King. 

I'm not sure Jon will be the KitN like Robb was... Remember when Tyrion told Jon to "embrace who you are" in AGoT? I think Jon will not change his name, he will embrace it. 

Jon Snow, the King of Winter.

He'll definitely be the guy in charge for the LN2.0. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, Stannis is offering it to Jon, and Jon is refusing. Sees it as hers.

Point being: he's unlikely to want to take it from his "sisters" or "brothers" wholesale. Has felt guilty on that score for a WHILE, wanting "another man's birthright."

An interesting mindset, is all re: Jon getting Winterfell. 

Agree, I don't think he'll want to take Winterfell from any of his siblings. 

[The Fattest Leech]

@Sly Wren. Thanks for the responses. I will have to reply more in depth later (I'm out to dinner right now) but real quickly, all do respect to lml, but there is just as much symbolism to Sansa and her Whent family and Harrenhal and her accepting her skinchange talents into something with flight.  

[Raisin' Bran]

1 hour ago, King Crow said:

Actually I don't watch the show and I've been on this ship for years...

(This is not sarcasm) Well that does surprise me quite a lot. When did you begin to believe in this 'ship?

At least I can give you credit for sticking to your guns.

[Sly Wren]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

The true knights theme is explored in depth over and over and over again in Sansa's story with Sandor, not Jon.

Yes--with Sandor, a burned man, like Jon. And not a "real, anointed" knight, like Jon isn't. Like most of the heroes from the time of the long knight aren't. Like Florian the Fool. 

Sansa's figuring out the ideal of knighthood she shares with her family (like Ned and Bran) while Jon's figuring out what it means to fully fulfill his ideals as a sworn brother. Both arrive at "protection" as an ideal. 

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

And the conflict with LF is throughout the entire scene. He strides over the wall, comes into her castle, she says don't break it, etc.

Of course. It's a worry--at some point there will be a conflict.

But she goes for Winterfell and insists on even defending the ruin. And what he heard at the Moon Door is just waiting for her to realize and use. Her influence on Sweetrobin is just waiting for her to use.

Really think that kid's going north to Winterfell at the same time Jon will come south for it.