Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

See this is what happens when a person argues false information.

There is no Lord Parmount of nuttin in the novels except LF being named because Arryns sickly child can’t rule.

 

 

Warden of the North, used to be Stark, but the the boy King gave that title to Roose Bolton.

Warden of East, used to be Jon Arryn

Warden of the South Mace Tyrell

Warden of the West held by Tywin, but now Tywin is dead.

This. And wasn't Jaime appointed WotE by Robert? I remember he had every intention of appointing him, much to Ned's dismay, but can't recall whether he actually did it before being boar'ed. 

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. And wasn't Jaime appointed WotE by Robert? I remember he had every intention of appointing him, much to Ned's dismay, but can't recall whether he actually did it before being boar'ed. 

Off the top of my head without doing a search there was a conversation between Robert & Eddard about Lannisters holding the East & West.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Off the top of my head without doing a search there was a conversation between Robert & Eddard about Lannisters holding the East & West.

Yeah, Ned was trying to convince Robert that appointing Jaime as WotE was a very bad idea b/c Tywin was already WotW. And Robert seemed determined to do it anyway. But I can't remember if he appointed him before dying or not. 

[kissdbyfire]

Ok, just read up on it. Robert does appoint Jaime, but later on Tywin restores the office/tittle to the Arryns. So after Jon Arryn dies, Jaime becomes WotE, but now it's Sweetrobin. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Warden_of_the_East

[Britisher]

32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No it won't come from Sansa. Sansa has no claim and no say on the Vale whatsoever. LF has no claim and no say on the Vale whatsoever without SR. That's what the chapter of the Lords Declarant is about - they do not recognize him as a legal political power in the Vale, after Lysa's death. He has no blood relation to SR at all. They wanted SR to be handed over. He had to bribe most of them to shush them into agreeing him 1 year as regent. That's it. 

And no, he had ZERO years to win over Harrold at all. SR hated Harrold and Lysa also always fed that paranoia. So Harrold was always kept far and clear from the Eyrie. Harrold is a ward of Lady Waynwood, a Lady Declarant, and Harrold has been groomed and pumped up by Yohn Royce who hates LF's guts. LF knows he has nothing he can give Yohn Royce to appease him. Yohn Royce is LF's political enemy. None of his children are at the Tourney even. And Harrold has shown up with a huge grudge and resentment - not hiding his dislike for LF and his bastard daughter (by extension), and strikes down the thought of accepting a betrothal in insulting words the first moment he can.

Yohn Royce made sure to make Harrold see why LF wants that marriage - to save his own skin. Now, while Sansa may be able to charm Harrold enough over the course of the tourney to say, "Why not," he's still not going to think that of LF, because he'll tell himself the daughter is not like her father.

Yohn Royce will never make peace with LF, and Lady Waynwood is just getting the most out of it, without committing herself. She'll make sure that Harrold won't see LF as the best daddy-in-law in Westeros.

As for my speculation: it takes all text regarding the Vale into consideration, including the world book. Yours requires to ignore pretty much everything that has been set up politically, geographically, romantically and most of the foreshadowing.

No, and I never stated otherwise: Sansa has her claim on the North. LF could manipulate this to maintain a position of power within the Vale. If Sansa marries Harrold she would become the Lady of the Vale. Would Harrold deny himself half of the realm assuming he marries Sansa? You claim Sansa will see witness the fall of House Arryn. Who is Harrold's heir? His bastard daughter?

Your suggestion would mean LF will no say over the Vale regardless of the outcome, even if SR survives the year. 

[kissdbyfire]

Sansa has no claim. It may appear that she has, but this appearance won't last b/c either the contents of Robb's will will be revealed or one of her brothers will turn up. Possibly both, with the will becoming known before Bran or Rickon turn up. 

[Britisher]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sansa has no claim. It may appear that she has, but this appearance won't last b/c either the contents of Robb's will will be revealed or one of her brothers will turn up. Possibly both, with the will becoming known before Bran or Rickon turn up. 

As I've explained Robb's will won't make a difference. Bran is still with Bloodraven well beyond-the-wall. Only Rickon can challenge Sansa's claim until Bran comes south. 

[kissdbyfire]

Robb very likely legitimised Jon and named him his heir, while he disinherited Lady Lannister. I'd say it matters a great deal. 

[Britisher]

If Rickon manages to reach White Harbor he would still need to take up arms against the Boltons. The Manderlys won't reveal him to the world until such a time. 

And regardless of this, did Renly have a stronger claim on the Iron Throne over Stannis? 

[Britisher]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Robb very likely legitimised Jon and named him his heir, while he disinherited Lady Lannister. I'd say it matters a great deal. 

Jon is a man of the Night's Watch AND he will still be considered a bastard: Sansa is the trueborn daughter of Catelyn and Eddard Stark, Jon contesting her claim over the North will only further her cause. Jon would be considered a turncoat for betraying his half-sister and for betraying the watch. Robb Stark was a traitor, and would imagine any Will legitimising Jon Snow would be ignored by the Lords of the Vale. It will be taken as a forgery, and beyond that words are wind. 

EDIT: to clarify, it is unrealistic for Jon to rise up against Sansa and contradictory to his established character. I believe he would bow down to Sansa's claim on WF even if he is revealed as Robb's heir. The purpose of the post was to outline the fact that the Lords of the Vale would ignore Jon's claim to the North over that of Sansa's claim (so long as Sansa remains unchallenged by Bran and Rickon).

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Jon is a man of the Night's Watch AND he will still be considered a bastard: Sansa is the trueborn daughter of Catelyn and Eddard Stark, Jon contesting her claim over the North will only further her cause. Jon would be considered a turncoat for betraying his half-sister and for betraying the watch. Robb Stark was a traitor, and would imagine any Will legitimising Jon Snow would be ignored by the Lords of the Vale. It will be taken as a forgery, and beyond that words are wind. 

Then why are you shipping Jon and Sansa? It really seems like your loyalties lie in the southron way of thinking and not knowing the historical truth of the NW vows and how the political environment is about to change in huge ways. Also, Robb, as king, can legitimize a bastard.

Adding: I don't think anyone who knows Jon will question the fact that Jon will not take anything away from his Stark siblings.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Britisher said:

If Rickon manages to reach White Harbor he would still need to take up arms against the Boltons. The Manderlys won't reveil him to the world until such a time. 

And regardless of this, did Renly have a stronger claim on the Iron Throne over Stannis? 

Rickon won't go to WH. Skagos is very near EbtS, and with the seas so dangerous, that's where Davos will take him. 

Renly had no claim whatsoever, but what's that got to do with anything?

7 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Jon is a man of the Night's Watch AND he will still be considered a bastard: Sansa is the trueborn daughter of Catelyn and Eddard Stark, Jon contesting her claim over the North will only further her cause. Jon would be considered a turncoat for betraying his half-sister and for betraying the watch. Robb Stark was a traitor, and would imagine any Will legitimising Jon Snow would be ignored by the Lords of the Vale. It will be taken as a forgery, and beyond that words are wind. 

I disagree, I think you're making huge leaps here with nothing to back them up. I suppose we'll have to wait to see how it plays out.

ETA: and I agree with everything @The Fattest Leech said above as well. 

[Britisher]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Then why are you shipping Jon and Sansa? It really seems like your loyalties lie in the southron way of thinking and not knowing the historical truth of the NW vows and how the political environment is about to change in huge ways. Also, Robb, as king, can legitimize a bastard.

Adding: I don't think anyone who knows Jon will question the fact that Jon will not take anything away from his Stark siblings.

I'm outlining the improbablities of it all. The Vale of Arryn is in the South. I agree, he would not deny any of his siblings. 

[Britisher]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rickon won't go to WH. Skagos is very near EbtS, and with the seas so dangerous, that's where Davos will take him. 

Renly had no claim whatsoever, but what's that got to do with anything?

I disagree, I think you're making huge leaps here with nothing to back them up. I suppose we'll have to wait to see how it plays out.

I agree that Rickon will probably be sent to Eastwatch.

He did have a claim as the brother of Robert Baratheon, but it was a weak one as he was below the line of succession from Stannis. My point is that even with his weak claim he had a significant level of support which overshadowed Stannis's own support.

Well whatever happens most men will probably see Jon leaving the NW as a betrayal of his vows and his solemn oath to the Old Gods. 

[Britisher]

5 minutes ago, Britisher said:

I agree that Rickon will probably be sent to Eastwatch.

He did have a claim as the brother of Robert Baratheon, but it was a weak one as he was below the line of succession from Stannis. My point is that even with his weak claim he had a significant level of support which overshadowed Stannis's own support.

Well whatever happens most men will probably see Jon leaving the NW as a betrayal of his vows and his solemn oath to the Old Gods. 

If he deserts after being resurrected.

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Britisher said:

I agree that Rickon will probably be sent to Eastwatch.

He did have a claim as the brother of Robert Baratheon, but it was a weak one as he was below the line of succession from Stannis. My point is that even with his weak claim he had a significant level of support which overshadowed Stannis's own support.

Well whatever happens most men will probably see Jon leaving the NW as a betrayal of his vows and his solemn oath to the Old Gods. 

Renly was able to get the support he did because of his personality (a plus), Stannis' personality (a minus), and the general messy and chaotic situation after Robert died. But his claim was that of a younger brother; he'd have a claim to the crown if Stannis was dead, or after his death his claim would came from Stannis. 

As @The Fattest Leech noted, you seem to be cherry picking here. Because the OP is about Jon and Sansa becoming a couple, but now if Jon leaves the NW and is declared Robb's heir as per the will, he is a traitor? So, which is it? Is Sansa going to get romantically involved with a traitor? Or leaving the NW is OK if it means he'll marry Sansa? 

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Renly was able to get the support he did because of his personality (a plus), Stannis' personality (a minus), and the general messy and chaotic situation after Robert died. But his claim was that of a younger brother; he'd have a claim to the crown if Stannis was dead, or after his death his claim would came from Stannis. 

As @The Fattest Leech noted, you seem to be cherry picking here. Because the OP is about Jon and Sansa becoming a couple, but now if Jon leaves the NW and is declared Robb's heir as per the will, he is a traitor? So, which is it? Is Sansa going to get romantically involved with a traitor? Or leaving the NW is OK if it means he'll marry Sansa? 

That's not cherry-picking, it's fact: some people would see it as treason, they would not believe Jon and they would not appreciate his Wildling army or the fact that they believe he has forsaken his vow to the NW (even if his watch really has ended). That doesn't mean to say it won't happen, but if it does it would be a major contradiction on the established Jon character. And it would be poor (fantasy) writing imo. It is very unlikely that Jon would attempt to become the Lord of Winterfell in the place of Bran, Rickon, Sansa or Arya unless there is a major shift in his character arc. I believe that he might attempt to install one of the Stark children as the Lord/Lady of Winterfell but I'm not certain that he would ever presume to take the lordship for himself, even if he is declared Robb's heir unless he has no other alternative, and even so I believe he would bow down to one of the Stark children if they revealed themselves. 

My point is about how infeasible it would be for Jon to rise up against Sansa if the Lords of the Vale do attempt to install her as the Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North. His claim would be based on a piece of paper which many people might disregard as a forgery - Sansa's claim is a matter of blood. Abandoning the NW would only further speculation of Jon being a power hungry traitor.

I am not "about" Jon and Sansa becoming a couple, I just recognise it as a possibility which I believe is quite likely (running under the scenario of Jon aiding one of the Stark children in reclaiming WF, whose name is Sansa Stark).

Adding: to clarify I do not believe that Jon will go to arms against Sansa to press his claim on WF! I did not specify in my original post that I was just pointing out all the impracticabilities of Jon attempting to take the title, sorry for any confusion, it was a poorly written post.

[Lord Lannister]

Skimming through this thread, it just seems like it drew it's inspiration from episode 4 of season 6 of the show and really belongs on that forum.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Britisher said:

My point is about how infeasible it would be for Jon to rise up against Sansa if the Lords of the Vale do attempt to install her as the Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North. His claim would be based on a piece of paper which many people might disregard as a forgery - Sansa's claim is a matter of blood.

A piece of paper that several lords of the North and the Riverlands signed and sealed - all alive still: Edmure, Glover, Maege, Mallister and Greatjon. They are all still alive. We may not know where they all are exactly, but none of them are dead. House Tully, House Glover, House Mormont, House Mallister and House Umber will back Robb's will. That's Sansa's own uncle and great-uncle, another Riverlands House and 3 houses of the North. Meanwhile Manderly is backing a surviving Stark boy. And those Mountain Clans have come to check out Jon at the Wall as well already. Alys Karstark and her Thenn are more likely to back Jon than any claim of Sansa's, certainly when there's a will legitimizing Jon. House Blackwood will follow Edmure & Blackfish and Mallister. The same can be argued for Pinkmaiden and Vance.

Only Houses left are Redwyn, Dustin aside from the Boltons and Freys (traitors).

I'll put a "no idea" for House Cerwyn, but I'm pretty sure they'll follow the majority, since they're a smaller house.

Neither the Northernerns nor the Riverlanders will allow the Vale to dictate who rules them from WF, because the Vale forfeited any such right when they refrained from coming to Robb's aid. They certainly wont have anything to do with LF either - the man who was gifted HH and made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands by the much hated Lannisters around the time of the RW.

If any of the Lords of the Vale, evenYohn Royce, tries to meddle with who the Northerners believe is Robb's heir they'll shut their doors and let that army freeze and starve to death.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Skimming through this thread, it just seems like it drew it's inspiration from episode 4 of season 6 of the show and really belongs on that forum.

 Just before reading your post, I had scrolled up to check if I was in the book forum, like I thought I was.

Honestly, I don't think any of this Jon/Sansa fan-fic has any business being in this forum. I haven't seen a single line from the books that I would interpret to indicate that this is even remotely possible. Jon/Sansa is clearly derived from show fans shipping their favorite characters and actor/actresses.