Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[TheDemonicStark]

20 minutes ago, Britisher said:

He adopted a sigil of silver mockingbirds on a green field for House Baelish of Harrenhal, which is a cadet branch of House Baelish of the Fingers whose sigil is the head of the Titan of Braavos. Petyr Baelish is the incumbent lord of both houses.

I see. However, she might betray him in the Vale, and have him brought to Winter fell to face justice.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure Jon will be the KitN like Robb was... Remember when Tyrion told Jon to "embrace who you are" in AGoT? I think Jon will not change his name, he will embrace it. 

Jon Snow, the King of Winter.

He'll definitely be the guy in charge for the LN2.0. 

I can see that. I can even see him combine his two families like Diredragon or Snowdragon.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree, I don't think he'll want to take Winterfell from any of his siblings. 

Agree he will not take Winterfell.

46 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Alot of Jonsa shipping also started when GRRM's outline was revealed.  There were a few Jonsa shippers around already and they were encouraged with the idea that Jon wouldn't ship Arya but Sansa.  Quite the jump from Arya to Sansa but that didn't matter, several book threads went on about that. 

I know. However they spread everywhere after the series.

I see. However, she might betray him in the Vale, and have him brought to Winter fell to face justice.

Wut?

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Alot of Jonsa shipping also started when GRRM's outline was revealed.  There were a few Jonsa shippers around already and they were encouraged with the idea that Jon wouldn't ship Arya but Sansa.  Quite the jump from Arya to Sansa but that didn't matter, several book threads went on about that. 

The Jonsa shippers have even used quotes about Jon and Arya as evidence that a Jon/Sansa ship will happen.

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The snow castle being Winterfell is only your insertion. We saw GoHH's prediction coming true already - Sansa ripped the head off a doll that SR called a giant in a literal snow castle. GoHH's prediction foreshadows the snow castle scene, which is a foreshadowing scene by itself. The whole LF-Sansa interaction while building that snow castle has already majorly transpired since the moment that LF pushed Lysa out of the moon door in aFfC - from giving instructions to making his own hands dirty to accepting her own suggestions. aFfC ends right where SR and a giant is supposed to spoil the party. So, unless Sansa is going to teleport to WF, the destruction of the snow castle and Sansa putting a giant's head on a spike and walk away from the whole mess it's all going down at the Gates of the Moon.  

GRRM foreshadows in steps of 3: The Hand's tourney scene where a knight of the Vale in Arryn colors and moon symbols is killed by a giant's lance is the first foreshadowing. Then follows GoHH's prediction which points to the third foreshadowing. It'll happen in the Vale, not the North.

The snow castle is a snow castle modeled off of Winterfell, and the chapter is laden with symbolism relating to House Stark, Winterfell and the Old Gods. For me the chapter is foreshadowing the fact that a "giant" (Littlefinger) will try to enter Sansa's "castle" but that she will slay him, whilst also foreshadowing that Sansa will be the Stark to rebuild/retake Winterfell from the ashes and the one who will ultimately reunite the remaining members of the family.

Remember it was the giant who slew Hugh in the Tourney of the Hand, not the other way round. I would say his death underlines the identity of our giant (Littlefinger) and parallels the deaths of Jon and Lysa Arryn. Hugh himself parallels Robert Arryn most of all (unattractive loner whose only friend is his mother), so this could also be foreshadowing his demise at the hands of Littlefinger. I don't see how this links in to Sansa or suggests that she will slay Littlefinger in the Vale over Winterfell? Care to elaborate on why the Ghost of High Hart's prophecy implies that it will occur in the Vale and not the North? 

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Britisher said:

The snow castle is a snow castle modeled off of Winterfell, and the chapter is laden with symbolism relating to House Stark, Winterfell and the Old Gods. For me the chapter is foreshadowing the fact that a "giant" (Littlefinger) will try to enter Sansa's "castle" but that she will slay him, whilst also foreshadowing that Sansa will be the Stark to rebuild/retake Winterfell from the ashes and the one who will ultimately reunite the remaining members of the family.

And that model of the snow castle is Winterfell of the past, a building of a dream of the past.
 

Quote

 

Dawn had not yet come. Sometimes she dreamed of Ser Ilyn Payne and woke with her heart thumping, but this dream had not been like that. Home. It was a dream of home.

Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

[Littlefinger] walked along outside the walls. "I used to dream of it, in those years after Cat went north with Eddard Stark. In my dreams it was ever a dark place, and cold."

"If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls."

"Those are only stories," she said, and left him there.

 

Winterfell is a dream of the past, and the dream is trashed, smashed. It's a dream she walks away from, a story that she dismisses. It's not her future.

Quote

Remember it was the giant who slew Hugh in the Tourney of the Hand, not the other way round. I would say his death underlines the identity of our giant (Littlefinger) and parallels the deaths of Jon and Lysa Arryn. Hugh himself parallels Robert Arryn most of all (unattractive loner whose only friend is his mother), so this could also be foreshadowing his demise at the hands of Littlefinger. I don't see how this links in to Sansa or suggests that she will slay Littlefinger in the Vale over Winterfell? Care to elaborate on why the Ghost of High Hart's prophecy implies that it will occur in the Vale and not the North? 

The giant is called the "Mountain" and its his "lance" that kills Hugh. What is the name of the "mountain" looming over the Gates of the Moon? The Giant's Lance.

The snow castle scene shows several "giants". The doll that knocks down "gates", but also Sweetrobin who trashes it completely, and Littlefinger. And one giant's head gets thorn off and put on a spike on the wall.

I already pointed you to read my "Sansa and the Giants" essay. You can find it by clicking the link in my sig. The tourney scene, Cat scenes while arriving at the Gates and going on the path to the Eyrie, GoHH, snow castle scene AND the looking down on the Gates of the Moon scenes plus a Bran scene before being saved by Leaf are deeply analysed in their entirety. That's my elaboraton.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No .Not because of the incest angle , of all the Stark children she is the one he is lease close to . Sansa's relationship with Jon was slightly better than that of Jon and Catelyn .This was evident when in a flashback Sansa had become flustered by Arya's actions and she complains that "...Arya even looks like Jon . "  And Catelyn responds " Arya looks like Lyanna ." . This is primarily a character development of Sansa not foreshadowing of a hook up .

[Sly Wren]

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I like how you point out that Sansa defends the ruin, and slays the giant in the process. But she also walks away from it. George spells out from the beginning that it's a dream, a dream that she builds, and the castle simply becomes the castle. Imo Sansa's not defending ruined WF - it already has been ruined anyway. She's defending her dream. But she also walks away from the dream.  

But she doesn't walk away from Winterfell. She walks away from Baelish. After claiming her castle. She walks away from his take on what's she's done.

Quote

 

A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls."

“Those are only stories,” she said, and left him there.

 

Then, once she gets back to her room, she thinks she won't put up with this. In part because of her status as heir to Winterfell. 

Quote

I will tell my aunt that I don’t want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. She wasn’t a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell. Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. If Lady Lysa knew that, surely she’d send her away …away from Robert’s pouts and shakes and runny eyes, away from Marillion’s lingering looks, away from Petyr’s kisses. I will tell her. I will!

She's not trying to get away from Winterfell. She's forming a plan to escape Robert, Baelish, and Marillion. In part because she's got status as the heir to Winterfell. She sees it as status and power. And that she can use information to get her way. 

And what happens next? Marillion takes her to Lysa, where she gets a HUGE info dump that, if she ever processes it, could be a big weapon against Baelish.

Plus, the death of Lysa puts Robin almost exclusively under her influence. He trusts and loves her most. Info and influence--the two things she wanted to get her way as a grown woman and heir to Witnerfell. And Martin gives them to her in one scene.

So, far, he hasn't used them--but he has revisited and shown repeatedly the level of Sansa's influence over Robin. Those weapons are just hanging there waiting for her, the "heir to Winterfell," to use.

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

ETA: a big reason for that is that the snow castle building heavily refers to the past as well. She's not as much rebuilding a future WF, but rebuilding her past. Her dream is about the past, and so is the snow castle. But the past has come and gone, and she's forced to let it go.

Again--she does not let it go int he scene. She plots to use Winterfell as part of her leverage to do what she wants. It's Baelish and Marillion and Robin she wants to get away from. She's not abandoning Winterfell. 

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But she doesn't walk away from Winterfell. She walks away from Baelish. After claiming her castle. She walks away from his take on what's she's done.

She left him "there". It's not just "him" she leaves but "there".

The scenes AFTER the snow castle, including Sansa going to her room and the confrontation with Lysa, are part of what is foreshadowed by the snow scene. Sansa leaves the snow castle scene, reset time, back to the start of the dream but now we see what's foreshadowed. The foreshadowing snow scene begins with identifying it as a dream and ends with her leaving "him there". And what comes immediately after and all of aFfC is what is foreshadowed. We've had the 3 foreshadowings, and immediately after George starts to slowly enfold what is foreshadowed - LF and Sansa carefully building and planning on a dream of WF in the Vale (end of aSoS+aFfC), but the dream is destroyed in the Vale, and so will LF in the Vale, and that's when Sansa leaves him and the Vale (tWoW).

We have allusions to the Night and "before Dawn" and Sansa being brought to her knees beside the fallen and broken statue of Alyssa. Meanwhile Alyssa's tears are mentioned several times. Those "tears" are coming down, while the end of House Arryn is nothing she'll cry over - just strangers from the Vale. 

What happens for Sansa after the Vale will be foreshadowed in the Vale tourney.

[Britisher]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

1. And that model of the snow castle is Winterfell of the past, a building of a dream of the past. Winterfell is a dream of the past, and the dream is trashed, smashed. It's a dream she walks away from, a story that she dismisses. It's not her future.

2. The giant is called the "Mountain" and its his "lance" that kills Hugh. What is the name of the "mountain" looming over the Gates of the Moon? The Giant's Lance.

1. I completely disagree with this analogy given the sheer amount of Winterfell/Stark references across the entire passage, which is beyond coincidental. This theme continues across the entirety of the chapter. 

2. That is a good point; I'll have a look at your essay later  

[Britisher]

43 minutes ago, Britisher said:

1. I completely disagree with this analogy given the sheer amount of Winterfell/Stark references across the entire passage, which is beyond coincidental. This theme continues across the entirety of the chapter. 

2. That is a good point; I'll have a look at your essay later  

I thought your essay was very interesting (particularly your suggestions of an avalanche at the Giant's Lance and the Burned Men invading the Bloody Gate) although I'm still not entirely convinced about your dismissal of the chapter's Stark/Winterfell/Old Gods references as simply being part of an unattainable "dream" of Sansa's and nothing more than a reflection of her past and your suggestion that Littlefinger will not die outside of the Vale. For me your parts about Littlefinger didn't tie in so well as your suggested foreshadowing of an avalanche at the Bloody Gate/invasion by the Burned Men.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

I thought your essay was very interesting (particularly your suggestions of an avalanche at the Giant's Lance and the Burned Men invading the Bloody Gate) although I'm still not entirely convinced about your dismissal of the chapter's Stark/Winterfell/Old Gods references as simply being part of an unattainable "dream" of Sansa's and nothing more than a reflection of her past and your suggestion that Littlefinger will not die outside of the Vale. For me your parts about Littlefinger didn't tie in so well as your suggested foreshadowing of an avalanche at the Bloody Gate/invasion by the Burned Men.

It's because of the timing. She wakes before "dawn" when it's still "night", then she wanders outside into a snow dream of Winterfell. She then seems to lose consciousness of what she was doing and finds herself standing next to the fallen statue of Alyssa (Alyssa's Tears is the frozen waterfall, and Alyssa's curse will end when her tears touch the Vale's soil... that can only happen if the frozen waterfall breaks and falls). By then "dawn has stolen into the garden like a thief".

This gives a time frame. These things that we see happen with the snow castle (her starting to build it, LF helping her, SR destroying it, her walking away of it after slaying the giant) happen before "dawn", which means it's a foreshadowing of aFfC and tWoW arc. aFfC ends for Sansa with LF presenting her this dream on how she might end up using the Vale army to get WF back in a couple of years time, and he asks her for a kiss. So, here the foreshadowed analogy of LF and Sansa building the snow castle together and LF kissing her ends. That means tWoW is the breakdown and destruction half of the foreshadowing. It simply does not predict any further. Sansa will witness the fall of House Arryn and bring about LF's death. She's the sole POV in the Vale. And the ruining of the dream will need at least 4-5 Sansa chapters in tWoW, while things go down everywhere else too. And then she'll escape the mayhem. But where too? It's not foreshadowed yet. The Tourney at the Gates of the Moon will contain the first real inkling of what and where she escapes to.

The Hand's Tourney foreshadowed the war between Renly and Stannis, the Wo5K, the beggaring of house Stark, the rise of the BwB, the severing of the branch of the Baratheons and one of them comes from the common folk as a hero, the end of House Arryn and the Vale order as we know it, Ned's beheading (Gregor beheading his stallion), the betrothal plan of HtH to Sansa.

The Nameday Tourney foreshadows Crown versus Tyrells, Slynt getting his come-uppance at the NW (not how - as in hanging or beheading - but that it'll happen there), Tommen's reign trying to battle a strawman's war against Stannis but being beaten, the Silver Gryffon (Aegon and JonCon), and Tyrion returning to take the castle (CR? KL?) with barbarians.

The Vale Tourney will foreshadow parts of tWoW for other story arcs, and Sansa's arc for aDoS.

[Britisher]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's because of the timing. She wakes before "dawn" when it's still "night", then she wanders outside into a snow dream of Winterfell. She then seems to lose consciousness of what she was doing and finds herself standing next to the fallen statue of Alyssa (Alyssa's Tears is the frozen waterfall, and Alyssa's curse will end when her tears touch the Vale's soil... that can only happen if the frozen waterfall breaks and falls). By then "dawn has stolen into the garden like a thief".

This gives a time frame. These things that we see happen with the snow castle (her starting to build it, LF helping her, SR destroying it, her walking away of it after slaying the giant) happen before "dawn", which means it's a foreshadowing of aFfC and tWoW arc. aFfC ends for Sansa with LF presenting her this dream on how she might end up using the Vale army to get WF back in a couple of years time, and he asks her for a kiss. So, here the foreshadowed analogy of LF and Sansa building the snow castle together and LF kissing her ends. That means tWoW is the breakdown and destruction half of the foreshadowing. It simply does not predict any further. Sansa will witness the fall of House Arryn and bring about LF's death. She's the sole POV in the Vale. And the ruining of the dream will need at least 4-5 Sansa chapters in tWoW, while things go down everywhere else too. And then she'll escape the mayhem. But where too? It's not foreshadowed yet. The Tourney at the Gates of the Moon will contain the first real inkling of what and where she escapes to.

The Hand's Tourney foreshadowed the war between Renly and Stannis, the Wo5K, the beggaring of house Stark, the rise of the BwB, the severing of the branch of the Baratheons and one of them comes from the common folk as a hero, the end of House Arryn and the Vale order as we know it, Ned's beheading (Gregor beheading his stallion), the betrothal plan of HtH to Sansa.

The Nameday Tourney foreshadows Crown versus Tyrells, Slynt getting his come-uppance at the NW (not how - as in hanging or beheading - but that it'll happen there), Tommen's reign trying to battle a strawman's war against Stannis but being beaten, the Silver Gryffon (Aegon and JonCon), and Tyrion returning to take the castle (CR? KL?) with barbarians.

The Vale Tourney will foreshadow parts of tWoW for other story arcs, and Sansa's arc for aDoS.

That does not explain the necessity for LF to die in the Vale or the continuation of Winterfell imagery across the entire chapter. You are reading the passage as a chronological prophecy, I see it as a multifaceted one.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Britisher said:

That does not explain the necessity for LF to die in the Vale or the continuation of Winterfell imagery across the entire chapter. You are reading the passage as a chronological prophecy, I see it as a multifaceted one.

Of course it does. The Vale was what LF has used since the start (in aGoT) as his power base to get his nasty plots underway - Lysa's letter in a box to WF, Lysa withholding the Vale army from siding with Robb, bringing Sansa to the Vale, stocking up on all the food, regency of SR. George isn't going to destroy his food stock and his hold on Vale lords by turning the political order upside down, only to keep him around as a meaningless nobody on the run to be killed somewhere else.

[Britisher]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course it does. The Vale was what LF has used since the start (in aGoT) as his power base to get his nasty plots underway - Lysa's letter in a box to WF, Lysa withholding the Vale army from siding with Robb, bringing Sansa to the Vale, stocking up on all the food, regency of SR. George isn't going to destroy his food stock and his hold on Vale lords by turning the political order upside down, only to keep him around as a meaningless nobody on the run to be killed somewhere else.

Sorry but no, that's pure speculation.

6,000 men of the Vale are gathered at the Gates of the Moon of a possible 20,000 which the six Lord Declarants of the Vale can muster. Littlefinger anticipates the death of SR and hopes to maintain his hold over the Vale through Sansa and Harrold.  

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Sorry but no, that's pure speculation.

6,000 men of the Vale are gathered at the Gates of the Moon of a possible 20,000 which the six Lord Declarants of the Vale can muster. Littlefinger anticipates the death of SR and hopes to maintain his hold over the Vale through Sansa and Harrold.  

LF's sole political power in the Vale comes from being regent over SR. SR is a minor and therefore needs a regent. Lysa was a Tully, and her sole power over the Vale was because she acted as SR's regent. Without the regency, LF solely has a tower at the Fingers, and gets packed faster than he can say "Harrenhall" to that accursed castle in the RL, of which he's the official Warden by the crown.

Harrold is off age. LF cannot be his regent. And even if Harrold marries Sansa, Harrold is not just going to keep LF as advizor around, just because he's the father-in-law (and when Harrold learns she's Sansa and not Alayne, LF isn't even the father-in-law anymore), when he spent much more time with Yohn Royce and has been groomed by Yohn Royce. That's the reason why LF says 'in several years', to give him time to make himself invaluable to Harrold. But without those years, Harrold will just send him to HH, as the Lords Declarant attempted before when they demanded LF to surrender SR to them.

And NO, very clearly it's "not just speculation" that LF used the Vale for all his nefarious plotting from the start of the series. We know Lysa's letter was a lie. We know Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn because LF told her to. We know LF wanted war between Lannisters and Starks. We know LF told lies to Cat about the dagger. And we know Lysa wouldn't do anything without LF saying so.

[Britisher]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

LF's sole political power in the Vale comes from being regent over SR. SR is a minor and therefore needs a regent. Lysa was a Tully, and her sole power over the Vale was because she acted as SR's regent. Without the regency, LF solely has a tower at the Fingers, and gets packed faster than he can say "Harrenhall" to that accursed castle in the RL, of which he's the official Warden by the crown.

Harrold is off age. LF cannot be his regent. And even if Harrold marries Sansa, Harrold is not just going to keep LF as advizor around, just because he's the father-in-law (and when Harrold learns she's Sansa and not Alayne, LF isn't even the father-in-law anymore), when he spent much more time with Yohn Royce and has been groomed by Yohn Royce. That's the reason why LF says 'in several years', to give him time to make himself invaluable to Harrold. But without those years, Harrold will just send him to HH, as the Lords Declarant attempted before when they demanded LF to surrender SR to them.

And NO, very clearly it's "not just speculation" that LF used the Vale for all his nefarious plotting from the start of the series. We know Lysa's letter was a lie. We know Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn because LF told her to. We know LF wanted war between Lannisters and Starks. We know LF told lies to Cat about the dagger. And we know Lysa wouldn't do anything without LF saying so.

No I agree that the Vale represents Littlefingers power - the rest of what you suggest is pure speculation. 

Littlefinger's power upon the death of SR will come from Sansa: it would be to the mutual benefit of LF, Harrold and Yohn to press her claim on the North and unite the North and the Vale under House Hardyng, empowering all parties. Her betrothal could be utilised by Littlefinger as a bargaining tool alongside his undeniable resourcefulness. Littlerfinger's plans have been years in the making - surely he would have the foresight to see the possibility of SR dying prematurely given his health! He also had years to win over Harrold...

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Britisher said:

No I agree that the Vale represents Littlefingers power - the rest of what you suggest is pure speculation. 

Littlefinger's power upon the death of SR will come from Sansa: it would be to the mutual benefit of LF, Harrold and Yohn to press her claim on the North and unite the North and the Vale under House Hardyng, empowering all parties. Her betrothal could be utilised by Littlefinger as a bargaining tool alongside his undeniable resourcefulness. Littlerfinger's plans have been years in the making - surely he would have the foresight to see the possibility of SR dying prematurely given his health! He also had years to win over Harrold...

Bronze Yohn and LF as allies? I don't see that happening. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Sansa's claim to Winterfell"... Sansa has no claim, her younger brothers are alive, and she was probably disinherited by Robb.  

[Britisher]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bronze Yohn and LF as allies? I don't see that happening. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Sansa's claim to Winterfell"... Sansa has no claim, her younger brothers are alive, and she was probably disinherited by Robb.  

Rickon and Bran are believed dead. If Sansa is revealed to the lords of the Vale she will be the last remaining trueborn heir of Eddard and Catelyn Stark as far as they are concerned. If Robb disinherited Sansa I don't believe it would have a substantial impact on the opinions of the lords of the Vale: Robb was a traitor to the crown and Sansa is the last remaining Stark to challenge the Boltons hold over the North. That gives her a strong claim on Winterfell and the North.

 

 

 

 

I did not say they would ally but it would be in both parties interests to see Sansa as the Lord Paramount of the North. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

Littlefinger's power upon the death of SR will come from Sansa: it would be to the mutual benefit of LF, Harrold and Yohn to press her claim on the North and unite the North and the Vale under House Hardyng, empowering all parties. Her betrothal could be utilised by Littlefinger as a bargaining tool alongside his undeniable resourcefulness. Littlerfinger's plans have been years in the making - surely he would have the foresight to see the possibility of SR dying prematurely given his health! He also had years to win over Harrold...

No it won't come from Sansa. Sansa has no claim and no say on the Vale whatsoever. LF has no claim and no say on the Vale whatsoever without SR. That's what the chapter of the Lords Declarant is about - they do not recognize him as a legal political power in the Vale, after Lysa's death. He has no blood relation to SR at all. They wanted SR to be handed over. He had to bribe most of them to shush them into agreeing him 1 year as regent. That's it. 

And no, he had ZERO years to win over Harrold at all. SR hated Harrold and Lysa also always fed that paranoia. So Harrold was always kept far and clear from the Eyrie. Harrold is a ward of Lady Waynwood, a Lady Declarant, and Harrold has been groomed and pumped up by Yohn Royce who hates LF's guts. LF knows he has nothing he can give Yohn Royce to appease him. Yohn Royce is LF's political enemy. None of his children are at the Tourney even. And Harrold has shown up with a huge grudge and resentment - not hiding his dislike for LF and his bastard daughter (by extension), and strikes down the thought of accepting a betrothal in insulting words the first moment he can.

Yohn Royce made sure to make Harrold see why LF wants that marriage - to save his own skin. Now, while Sansa may be able to charm Harrold enough over the course of the tourney to say, "Why not," he's still not going to think that of LF, because he'll tell himself the daughter is not like her father.

Yohn Royce will never make peace with LF, and Lady Waynwood is just getting the most out of it, without committing herself. She'll make sure that Harrold won't see LF as the best daddy-in-law in Westeros.

As for my speculation: it takes all text regarding the Vale into consideration, including the world book. Yours requires to ignore pretty much everything that has been set up politically, geographically, romantically and most of the foreshadowing.

[Clegane'sPup]

48 minutes ago, Britisher said:

I did not say they would ally but it would be in both parties interests to see Sansa as the Lord Paramount of the North. 

See this is what happens when a person argues false information.

There is no Lord Parmount of nuttin in the novels except LF being named because Arryns sickly child can’t rule.

 

Warden of the North, used to be Stark, but the the boy King gave that title to Roose Bolton.

Warden of East, used to be Jon Arryn

Warden of the South Mace Tyrell

Warden of the West held by Tywin, but now Tywin is dead.