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Valens

Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

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Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't recall Martells saying something like that, just the GoT's Oberyn mentioning that Robert wasn't one of those who blamed. In any case, Robert wasn't formally crowned when this happen and it's not logical for someone to punish his most dangerous and powerful new ally for something he did before he had any actual power. By the same logic Robb should had punished Hoster for his crimes before he became the King. Also it wasn't Robert who rewarded Tywin, it was Jon Arryn, if you, in general, have to blame Robert for not ruling but left the ruling to his Hand and small council, you have no reason to blame him for something that he hadn't done. Should he had punished Tywin? In a perfect world where Tywin was a common Lord yes. In Westeros where Tywin wasn't his man from the beginning and he was dangerous and powerful I see no reason to do it. 

 

Inncorrect. That's a direct quote from Arianne, Robert was already dead by the time Oberyn was introduced. I think Robert getting a pass is laughable, horrible king from the moment he placed the crown on his head till the wonderful day that he died..

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4 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Inncorrect. That's a direct quote from Arianne, Robert was already dead by the time Oberyn was introduced. I think Robert getting a pass is laughable, horrible king from the moment he placed the crown on his head till the wonderful day that he died..

I don't recall that but in either case I don't care what Arianne thinks. Robert wasn't to blame for what happened to Elia and her children and in Westeros he had no reason to punish Tywin. If you don't agree with me that is fine but I will not change my opinion or particularly care.

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't recall that but in either case I don't care what Arianne thinks. Robert wasn't to blame for what happened to Elia and her children and in Westeros he had no reason to punish Tywin. If you don't agree with me that is fine but I will not change my opinion or particularly care.

“My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man’s hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs,” she went on, “so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you’ve called your brothers.”

That cut too close to the bone. “Robert was no monster.” “

He climbed onto his throne over the corpses of children,” she said..

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On 7/24/2016 at 5:18 PM, Valens said:

Orys must be the best Baratheon of all. He showed compassion for the house he defeated, Durrandon and even adopted their sigil and married the Storm King Arrec's daughter. However, other Baratheons don't exactly score high on the humanity scale, do they? Borros Baratheon let Aemond kill Lucerys and sent Lucerys away because he wouldn't marry any of his daughters. A good host would have sent one away and made the other stay, knowing they are mortal enemies. He also fought for the Blacks, which is a sin in itself. Lyonel Baratheon aka the Laughing Storm also rebelled against the throne because Duncan Targaryen wouldn't marry his daughter. Seems like they take the rebuking of their daughters badly, don't they? :P Robert, as we known, was full of flaws and his brothers weren't that much better. Their father seems to have been more sympathetic. All in all, the common traits of the Baratheons are: they are hotheaded, too proud and too hateful of their enemies. 

But don't forget that The Laughing Storm stood at Duncan's side for the trial by 7 when all the other knights at the tourney turned away. Robert Baratheon totally dropped the ball as a human being when it came to the Targaryen kids, but he showed mercy and treated Selmy honorably after the trident. The same was said of how he treated Balon Greyjoy.

But there isn't a whole lot there, in general to praise or condemn their house entirely.

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Robert is such a good guy that Ned hid Jon from him and didn't want to be his hand. Ned is not impressed with his kingship. 

Robert washed his hands of Lady being killed.

He made no attempt to have a good marriage, and beat his wife. He was a crappy alcoholic father and let Cersei ruin the kids.

He was a disinterested, lazy ruler. He has costly jousts and feasts and let's the kingdom run into debt.

He didn't make much personal effort to get along with his brothers.

 

Stannis got tangled up with Melisandre and was okay with burnings and his own brothers assassination.

Renly didn't mind starting a war.

these guys are not even the worst of all the people in the books. Martin specializes in grey, no?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

He made no attempt to have a good marriage

Not true. Cersei herself has told that Robert had tried to bond with her and she didn't wanted that.

22 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

snip

You seriously refer to a woman who tried a miserable coup that ended up in bloos as an expert about what the Martells believed or not? Seriously? In any way I said that I don't really care what the Martells thought.

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. Cersei herself has told that Robert had tried to bond with her and she didn't wanted that.

You seriously refer to a woman who tried a miserable coup that ended up in bloos as an expert about what the Martells believed or not? Seriously? In any way I said that I don't really care what the Martells thought.

I think she's right and hope ever last Barathron dies s horrible painful death worse that the Targ babies whose deaths he is fully accountable for, I hope Storm's End gets hit by a tidal wave and is washed away into the sea and is filled with kraken dung..

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3 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I think she's right and hope ever last Barathron dies s horrible painful death worse that the Targ babies whose deaths he is fully accountable for, I hope Storm's End gets hit by a tidal wave and is washed away into the sea and is filled with kraken dung..

Hate rants! But just humour me can you prove that he had any involvement at what happened to Rhaegar's children and that he knew what Tywin would do?

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So Robert solved his marital problems with beatings, womanizing, public humiliations, yearning for a lost love who didn't like him or want to marry him, and drinking.  And being a lousy ruler, and father. He did not train his heir in any positive way, which was irresponsible.

I don't consider Robert very reliable about his attempts to bond. JQC may be sympathetic to those behaviors but I'm not.

He also had power to be constructive and did nothing, except chop down his enemies and be willing to kill opponents, even youths or children.

The sympathy I have for Robert is that Cersei was not a good wife either, the times were brutal, and the books show that ruling is imperfect at best.

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7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I live the hate rant! But just humour me can you prove that he had any involvement at what happened to Rhaegar's children and that he knew what Tywin would do?

Not doing anything to the perpetrators was his involvement. It was in his power to punish them and they were rewarded, as the king it was his responsibility. This reminds of political loyalist who are outraged by the opposition party but make excuses for their own. I have no great love for Targaryens either, but those children and Elia Martell were innocents, Arianne isn't perfect by any means, but in this case their poor view of Robert is justifiable..

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5 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

So Robert solved his marital problems with beatings, womanizing, public humiliations, yearning for a lost love who didn't like him or want to marry him, and drinking.  And being a lousy ruler, and father. He did not train his heir in any positive way, which was irresponsible.

I don't consider Robert very reliable about his attempts to bond. JQC may be sympathetic to those behaviors but I'm not.

He also had power to be constructive and did nothing, except chop down his enemies and be willing to kill opponents, even youths or children.

The sympathy I have for Robert is that Cersei was not a good wife either, the times were brutal, and the books show that ruling is imperfect at best.

My point was that he did tried to make the marriage work. Now what he did after that doesn't mean that he didn't tried in the beginning.

2 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Not doing anything to the perpetrators was his involvement. It was in his power to punish them and they were rewarded, as the king it was his responsibility. This reminds of political loyalist who are outraged by the opposition party but make excuses for their own. I have no great love for Targaryens either, but those children and Elia Martell were innocents, Arianne isn't perfect by any means, but in this case their poor view of Robert is justifiable..

Not doing something for something that happened in the past doesn't mean that he was involved in what happened. 

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3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

My point was that he did tried to make the marriage work. Now what he did after that doesn't mean that he didn't tried in the beginning.

Not doing something for something that happened in the past doesn't mean that he was involved in what happened. 

Oh ok, the king is only involved when it's done directly by his hand. He's responsible for nothing others do or implementing justice in any form. Gotcha! 

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6 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Oh ok, the king is only involved when it's done directly by his hand. He's responsible for nothing others do or implementing justice in any form. Gotcha! 

That is not what I said. You can claim that he had to punish Tywin, I disagree because in that case Robb should had punished Hoster for his crimes and in that logic everyone had to punish the people for the crimes they had committed in the past. What I am saying is that he had no blame for their deaths, that was Tywin's, the Mountain's and Amory Lorch's and he couldn't had done nothing to prevent it. You can blame Tywin and his men for their deaths but Robert for not punish them, you cannot blame Tywin, his men and Robert for their deaths.

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3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is not what I said. You can claim that he had to punish Tywin, I disagree because in that case Robb should had punished Hoster for his crimes. What I am saying is that he had no blame for their deaths, that was Tywin's, the Mountain's and Amory Lorch's and he couldn't had done nothing to prevent it. You can blame Tywin and his men for their deaths but Robert for not punish them, you cannot blame Tywin, his men and Robert for their deaths.

Sure I can, it's all opinion, all accounts suggest Ned felt as I do. This was the beginning of the rift between the two. I never said he was involved, I said the actions afterwards was where he is held accountable. Argue for the drunken halfwit all you'd like..

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Two innocent children? Who were they? Because Viserys wasn't a child and Dany was active conspiring to attack Westeros.

Aegon and his sister. Also Viserys and Dany were children when they left dragonstone. Dany was still a child when she married Khal Drogo

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Just now, OuttaOldtown said:

Sure I can, it's all opinion, all accounts suggest Ned felt as I do. This was the beginning of the rift between the two. I never said he was involved, I said the actions afterwards was where he is held accountable. Argue for the drunken halfwit all you'd like..

Ned was a honorable idiot, he was the man who caused a war because he could't understood how politics work.

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

Aegon and his sister. Also Viserys and Dany were children when they left dragonstone. Dany was still a child when she married Khal Drogo

When Robert ordered the death of Aegon, Rhaenys and Viserys? If you have to blame him for ordering Dany's death after her marriage you have to blame Dany for ordering the death of those 12 years old who wear tokars, those were children too.

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3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ned was a honorable idiot, he was the man who caused a war because he could't understood how politics work.

No character is without flaws, in this case Ned was right. Robert is exactly what Arianne called him, a monster, a dumb monster at that. He let the murderers go on murdering, instead of sending Tywin and his children back to CR and limiting their future influence he married one, what did she do again? Oh yeah, illegitamized his bloodline and caused more war..

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Just now, OuttaOldtown said:

No character is without flaws, in this case Ned was right. Robert is exactly what Arianne called him, a monster, a dumb monster at that. He let the murderers go on murdering, instead of sending Tywin and his children back to CR and limiting their future influence he married one, what did she do again? Oh yeah, illegitamized his bloodline and caused more war..

Ned also gave his daughters to his enemy by bringing them to KL, so he is partly to blame what happened to his family. He could had claimed that because of what had happened to Bran the girls should stay in WF. No one would had cared. If Robert was a monster like you said the Iron Isles would had been a pile of bones and Dany along with Viserys would had died long ago.

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ned also gave his daughters to his enemy by bringing them to KL, so he is partly to blame what happened to his family. He could had claimed that because of what had happened to Bran the girls should stay in WF. No one would had cared. If Robert was a monster like you said the Iron Isles would had been a pile of bones and Dany along with Viserys would had died long ago.

I disagree, he knew they were in a mance guarded by unsullied and would've had them killed if it were possible. He expresses the desire to have them killed not long after naming him hand and leaving for KL. I'm not saying Ned is always right, just that my opinion of his handling of the Sack of KL in the aftermath was poor and its acknowledged by Ned, and its a hint of the kind of king he'd be, a poor one. Yes, letting Gregor live when you have the power to execute him for a crime makes him a monster in my eyes. He could've gone to the privy and died taking a shit in the days following, he'd have died a monster..

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2 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I disagree, he knew they were in a mance guarded by unsullied and would've had them killed if it were possible. He expresses the desire to have them killed not long after naming him hand and leaving for KL. I'm not saying Ned is always right, just that my opinion of his handling of the Sack of KL in the aftermath was poor and its acknowledged by Ned, and its a hint of the kind of king he'd be, a poor one. Yes, letting Gregor live when you have the power to execute him for a crime makes him a monster in my eyes. He could've gone to the privy and died taking a shit in the days following, he'd have died a monster..

:bs: They were also living at the streets with no one to protect them and they were not killed, also even in a palace a hired knife can kill. If anything Robert was lenient and generous, the Iron Isles, the royalists during RR and the Targ children are the proofs.

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