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Valens

Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

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Orys must be the best Baratheon of all. He showed compassion for the house he defeated, Durrandon and even adopted their sigil and married the Storm King Arrec's daughter. However, other Baratheons don't exactly score high on the humanity scale, do they? Borros Baratheon let Aemond kill Lucerys and sent Lucerys away because he wouldn't marry any of his daughters. A good host would have sent one away and made the other stay, knowing they are mortal enemies. He also fought for the Blacks, which is a sin in itself. Lyonel Baratheon aka the Laughing Storm also rebelled against the throne because Duncan Targaryen wouldn't marry his daughter. Seems like they take the rebuking of their daughters badly, don't they? :P Robert, as we known, was full of flaws and his brothers weren't that much better. Their father seems to have been more sympathetic. All in all, the common traits of the Baratheons are: they are hotheaded, too proud and too hateful of their enemies. 

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Honestly most of these characters are until they have been beaten, maimed, and suffered. 

I dont find any of the Baratheons sympathetic except Shireen and that's because she's a child and have shitty parents. I also find Robert's bastards sympathetic because of the poverty they grew up in and the fact that such a worthless piece of shit like Robert is their father. 

 

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I completely and utterly disagree.

Lyonel risked his life in order to help a hedge knight and rebelled only after his daughter was gravely insulted.

Robert liked sex and drinking sure. But at the same time he wasn’t a cruel man, he had sent his own master to help one of his enemies, he was generous and charismatic. Heck even Barri told that Robert was a good man.

Stannis might be uptight and somehow humorless but he is a really just, who cares about what someone’s  actions not about where he was born, a man who knows who is the real enemy , a brave man and one of the best strategist in GRRTH.

 

Every family have good persons and bad persond, like Borros. I believe that the Targs are by far the worse family in Westerosi history.

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9 minutes ago, Valens said:

 Borros Baratheon let Aemond kill Lucerys and sent Lucerys away because he wouldn't marry any of his daughters. A good host would have sent one away and made the other stay, knowing they are mortal enemies. He also fought for the Blacks, which is a sin in itself.

He fought for the greens. Who were the real usurpers to Viserys' wishes.
 

9 minutes ago, Valens said:

All in all, the common traits of the Baratheons are: they are hotheaded, too proud and too hateful of their enemies. 

While the Greyjoys are obsessed with a lifestyle which celebrates abductions, rape, murder, and pillaging. The Starks support capital punishment and used to practice blood sacrifices. The Lannisters are greedy, ambitious Machiavellians, the Tyrells are snobbish southerners obsessed with chivalry. The Arryns are even more snobbish and treat the survivors of the First Men like the U.S. and Canada treat the surviving Aboriginals. The Tullys are dullards, the Targaryens are insane dictators, and the Martells are hot-blooded and love to pick fights even if it means their own destruction.

We can summarize all the Great Houses with recurring flaws, why pick on just the Baratheons?

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12 minutes ago, James Steller said:

While the Greyjoys are obsessed with a lifestyle which celebrates abductions, rape, murder, and pillaging. The Starks support capital punishment and used to practice blood sacrifices. The Lannisters are greedy, ambitious Machiavellians, the Tyrells are snobbish southerners obsessed with chivalry. The Arryns are even more snobbish and treat the survivors of the First Men like the U.S. and Canada treat the surviving Aboriginals. The Tullys are dullards, the Targaryens are insane dictators, and the Martells are hot-blooded and love to pick fights even if it means their own destruction.

We can summarize all the Great Houses with recurring flaws, why pick on just the Baratheons?

I mean, some of those are much weaker than others. I have a hard time hating the Tyrells for being snobbish and chivalrous, even if the last two generations of Tyrell Lords have been idiots (and I'm not so sure how true that is). Sure, it's bad to push your children to risk life and limb in stupid games, but it's nothing compared to the evils of house Greyjoy.

Also, I think you're a little off on House Stark. They don't particularly support capital punishment, they support a last chance for leniency. Criminals are beheaded in all of the Seven Kingdoms, it's only in the North that the headsman(/lord) has the right to relent if he can't go through with it. But yeah they totally fed people to trees and a bunch of them are literally monsters.

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11 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I mean, some of those are much weaker than others. I have a hard time hating the Tyrells for being snobbish and chivalrous, even if the last two generations of Tyrell Lords have been idiots (and I'm not so sure how true that is). Sure, it's bad to push your children to risk life and limb in stupid games, but it's nothing compared to the evils of house Greyjoy.

Also, I think you're a little off on House Stark. They don't particularly support capital punishment, they support a last chance for leniency. Criminals are beheaded in all of the Seven Kingdoms, it's only in the North that the headsman(/lord) has the right to relent if he can't go through with it. But yeah they totally fed people to trees and a bunch of them are literally monsters.

My point was that you could point at every House in the series and find some people who are less than admirable people. And even the admirable people have their flaws.

Stannis Baratheon is an honest and just man who is committed to fighting the Others, freeing the North from Bolton rule and cares about his daughter and rewards people based on merit, even while he allows people to be burnt alive because his red-headed mistress says it must be done. He is neither a wholly bad or wholly good person. He is an interesting character, one of the most fascinating ones in the story.

Only a few people are completely irredeemable in the series. And there are no perfect saints either, unless you count Baelor Breakspear.

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There were good and bad Baratheons as were good and bad Starks or good and bad Targaryens. I don't think we can't consider an house as being bad, with a few exceptions, as the opposite is also true. 

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When you said the Baratheons are unsympathetic with all those qualities, you clearly ignored the bad qualities of other great houses. Also, there are so few examples of bad Baratheons you mentioned (Borros was a dick but Rhaenyra broke the marriage deal she promised and still expected him to fight for her (the Black had to make a marriage pact with the Starks during the Dance to get Cregan to move), Lyonel had his justified reason to rebell due to the insult done to his daughter and his missing chance to marry her to the crwon prince thanked to Prince Duncan's selfish action and Aegon V's only weakness).

Every great houses have had some good and bad rulers, with the Greyjoys having terrible people most of the time due to their already f**cked up culture. There had been some terrible Starks and Eddard's father wasn't such a good person either if Northern Ambition were real since he'd destabilize the realm to weaken the centralization of the Targaryens along with his cohorts. The Lannisters during Tywin's era sucks but we have no idea how they were in previous generations. I don't know much about the Tyrells and the Tullys. The Arryns are snobbish and discriminated against the Mountain Clans (although the Mountain Clans there are bandits, murderers and rapists descended from the First Men who also practive slavery before the Andals came, they weren't innocent harmless people at all). The Martells were as ambitious and greedy as the Lannisters and they were hypocrites who'd get mad and nationalistic about any wrongs done to them but ignorant of the wrongs they did to others. Dorne raided the Reach and the Marsch a lot in the past. Many of the young people were hotblooded and happy to go to war, yet they'd get mad if others invaded them.

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If you want to hold them to modern morality, which isn't fair given their society hasn't evolved to that point, sure most characters in ASoIaF are morally failing, that's hardly unique of the Baratheons. If you want to say that collectively the Baratheons are the worst, or even one of the worst families in Westeros, I find that conclusion laughable.

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Nah, the Baratheon's are alright. I love that the major 3 in the series cover a huge swath of the sexuality spectrum. Robert loves all the women, Renly loves all the men and Stannis appears to be asexual (Mel likely had to use some witchy potion/powder to ignite his lust).

It's true, they are unsympathetic: Robert was a sot who couldn't master himself, Renly was an entitled little snot and Stannis is incredibly unlikable in spite of being the most competent leader vying for the Iron Throne. What makes them compelling is how they are viewed by other characters. Ned's admiration for Robert, and what we are told of him in his Rebellion days, makes me like Robert. The way Renly brilliantly usurps most of the army that ought to be Stannis's after Robert's death makes me admire him, but his ego sobers me right up. And Stannis's own sarcasm and his sense of justice, as revealed by others, makes me cheer for him. But I never forget each man's flaws.

Even the Lannisters have Tyrion, Jaime, Genna and Daven that I can cheer for, despite the Lannisters killing everything I love. It's just one of the most beautiful aspects of GRRM's writing.

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I entirely disagree and find the Baratheons to among the most likeable Great Houses.

They got loyal Orys

Storm's End was the first to declare for Jaehaerys against the mad tyrant Maegor

Borros once more stood up to the same absoutistic whims of Viserys (and I recall that also the Starks demanded a royal marriage before they rose for Rhaenyra yet I don't see Cregan catching much flake because of that, so I don't see why it should be held against Borros)

The Baratheons were ready to fight the Blackfyres

Lyonel fought for Dunk and had a good cause for his rebellion (don't be suprised if you piss on someone, that they turn on you with a punch in the face)

Ormund lead the forces of the crown in the War of Ninepenny Kings and died for his king. And then Aerys sent Steffon on a mission which lead to his death and answered Steffon's loyalty with trying to kill Steffon's firstborn son. The Baratheons were totally right to rebel against yet another mad Targaryen king with pretensions to absolutism.

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Borros didn't seem like a nice guy but Lyonel just seemed to be true his house words. I mean, betrothals aren't for nothing. 

I think one of the main reason why the current Baratheon brothers are so separated because they didn't really grow up together(Robert was in the Vale, Stannis in Storm's End, Renly wasn't even born yet) and then Robert driftened them even more apart with his "careless generosity". They weren't the nicest persons in Westeros, I admit that but everyone has flaws.

4 hours ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

Nah, the Baratheon's are alright. I love that the major 3 in the series cover a huge swath of the sexuality spectrum. Robert loves all the women, Renly loves all the men and Stannis appears to be asexual (Mel likely had to use some witchy potion/powder to ignite his lust).

I'm not really sure about Mel's witchy potion, maybe Stannis was just really awkward around women because Robert's ridiculous behaviour and then he was married to Selyse who is really ugly but he still didn't want to cheat on her. But he can be asexual, sure, Mel's special case. 
I don't think Renly "loved all the men" more like only men. I mean Loras is his only lover mentioned and he seems perfect in all counts(highborn, really hot, they actually seemed to love each other. )

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13 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I completely and utterly disagree.

Lyonel risked his life in order to help a hedge knight and rebelled only after his daughter was gravely insulted.

Robert liked sex and drinking sure. But at the same time he wasn’t a cruel man, he had sent his own master to help one of his enemies, he was generous and charismatic. Heck even Barri told that Robert was a good man.

Stannis might be uptight and somehow humorless but he is a really just, who cares about what someone’s  actions not about where he was born, a man who knows who is the real enemy , a brave man and one of the best strategist in GRRTH.

 

Every family have good persons and bad persond, like Borros. I believe that the Targs are by far the worse family in Westerosi history.

 

Whilst I agree with most of the points made here, calling Stannis one of the best strategists in GRRTH is somewhat overselling his military capabilities.

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45 minutes ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

Shireen is not the same with her family. She is kind, good-hearted and seems to care for lowborn/"simple" people (Edric, Davos,Patchface)

How Shireen is not the same? Robert was kind and good hearted and Stannis has proved that doesn't care if someone is highborn or lowborn.

28 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Whilst I agree with most of the points made here, calling Stannis one of the best strategists in GRRTH is somewhat overselling his military capabilities.

I don't agree. I believe that he has proved how good he is since he was 17 years old.

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14 hours ago, James Steller said:

He fought for the greens. Who were the real usurpers to Viserys' wishes.
 

While the Greyjoys are obsessed with a lifestyle which celebrates abductions, rape, murder, and pillaging. The Starks support capital punishment and used to practice blood sacrifices. The Lannisters are greedy, ambitious Machiavellians, the Tyrells are snobbish southerners obsessed with chivalry. The Arryns are even more snobbish and treat the survivors of the First Men like the U.S. and Canada treat the surviving Aboriginals. The Tullys are dullards, the Targaryens are insane dictators, and the Martells are hot-blooded and love to pick fights even if it means their own destruction.

We can summarize all the Great Houses with recurring flaws, why pick on just the Baratheons?

Thats right, sorry. My mistake.  And I pick on them because they are very powerful and because they exhibit traits I don't like. Aggression, bigheadedness, arrogance and lust for power. And I object on that about Tully's!

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15 hours ago, Valens said:

Orys must be the best Baratheon of all. He showed compassion for the house he defeated, Durrandon and even adopted their sigil and married the Storm King Arrec's daughter. However, other Baratheons don't exactly score high on the humanity scale, do they? Borros Baratheon let Aemond kill Lucerys and sent Lucerys away because he wouldn't marry any of his daughters. A good host would have sent one away and made the other stay, knowing they are mortal enemies. He also fought for the Blacks, which is a sin in itself. Lyonel Baratheon aka the Laughing Storm also rebelled against the throne because Duncan Targaryen wouldn't marry his daughter. Seems like they take the rebuking of their daughters badly, don't they? :P Robert, as we known, was full of flaws and his brothers weren't that much better. Their father seems to have been more sympathetic. All in all, the common traits of the Baratheons are: they are hotheaded, too proud and too hateful of their enemies. 

Orys also took a cruel vengeance on Wyl's son, Walter. :P 

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How Shireen is not the same? Robert was kind and good hearted and Stannis has proved that doesn't care if someone is highborn or lowborn.

Robert was kind and good-hearted too, but he was also a terrible husband and father.

Stannis doesn't care if someone is highborn or lowborn but his is not kind and good-hearted.

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16 hours ago, Valens said:

Orys must be the best Baratheon of all. He showed compassion for the house he defeated, Durrandon and even adopted their sigil and married the Storm King Arrec's daughter. However, other Baratheons don't exactly score high on the humanity scale, do they? Borros Baratheon let Aemond kill Lucerys and sent Lucerys away because he wouldn't marry any of his daughters. A good host would have sent one away and made the other stay, knowing they are mortal enemies. He also fought for the Blacks, which is a sin in itself. Lyonel Baratheon aka the Laughing Storm also rebelled against the throne because Duncan Targaryen wouldn't marry his daughter. Seems like they take the rebuking of their daughters badly, don't they? :P Robert, as we known, was full of flaws and his brothers weren't that much better. Their father seems to have been more sympathetic. All in all, the common traits of the Baratheons are: they are hotheaded, too proud and too hateful of their enemies. 

Orys was a bastard who ended up marrying a defeated queen whose house is hundreds of years old, securing legitimacy in the process. Was that out of charity? Hmm...

Call me a cynic but I think he was brighter then Robert B was. 

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