Tyrion and Petyr

[Maxxine]

3 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Mayhaps not but Tyrion (correct me if I am wrong) is aware that he framed him for that dagger business with Bran and I think it is safe to assume that him and Sansa will meet at some stage as both will be important players on their respective sides and also they might need to sort out once and for all their marriage.  It would only take a little talk which does not even require for them to be even very good friends.  Sansa knows Tyrion is a capable player and has reason to go against Petyr, why not use him to help her with this?

True Tyrion does know LF framed him for the dagger.  I just don't think that is enough that for LF to really be on Tyrion's "list." Considering the OP's question of does the plot demand a LF/Tyrion reckoning I don't think it does because of what the characters know. If Tyrion and LF never meet again I don't think it takes anything away from the plot. There are a lot of other reunions that I would put ahead of LF/Tyrion. I'm not saying there's no way Tyrion could be involved in LF's death. The idea you mentioned would be a good one. However, I do think LF will be dead before Tyrion can even get back to Westeros and even think about killing him.

[John Suburbs]

Just now, Morgana Lannister said:

I have always wondered if in fact Tyrion knows or Petyr thinks knows something really, really big about him because yes he seems to be tireless when it comes to trying to get him killed.  I thought maybe some deals LF did as Master of Coin but of course the dagger business happens before Tyrion got the job replacing Petyr so probably something else.

I'm thinking, at the beginning of Thrones, Petyr looks at Tyrion as a potential threat -- someone he can use as a patsy to get the ball rolling. Once Tyrion becomes Hand, and then MoC, of course, he is an immediate and significant threat who has to be removed right away.

[Maxxine]

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Most people disagree, and the explanation is long and convoluted, but the fact is that the poison at the Purple Wedding was in Tyrion's pie, not the wine, which means both LF and Lady O were trying to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

What reason would Olenna have to kill Tyrion. Kill Sansa's husband to leave her open for Willas? Also, did Joffrey eat Tyrion's pie? Didn't the pie he ate come from the wedding pie that he and Marg had just cut and hadn't been served to anyone else yet?

[FacelessDude]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

This is going to be a twist, I think. Penny will kill Baelish when she figures out that he killed Groat and made it look as if it had been part of the general dwarf-killing spree in response to the reward offered for Tyrion's death.

Hmmm. I always figured it would be Sansa once she fully realizes what role Petyr played in her father's death. Especially after Littlefinger teaches her everything she needs to know about the game of thrones. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I don't see Arya becoming a real Faceless agent and don't see Tyrion hiring/being able to hire one. Arya may be adding Baelish to her list of "to do" people if she learns that LF engineered Ned's death, but that's a different story.

Well, maybe Tyrion does say a little prayer, but maybe Arya joins team Daenerys, and maybe Tyrion's learns to employ her special skills. Tyrion knows that Petyr betrayed Arya's father, and at least in the beginning, The George wanted to put Tyrion and Arya together. I am not suggesting he would fall for her, just that they might still interact. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Mayhaps not but Tyrion (correct me if I am wrong) is aware that he framed him for that dagger business with Bran and I think it is safe to assume that him and Sansa will meet at some stage as both will be important players on their respective sides and also they might need to sort out once and for all their marriage.  It would only take a little talk which does not even require for them to be even very good friends.  Sansa knows Tyrion is a capable player and has reason to go against Petyr, why not use him to help her with this?

Tyrion knows that Petyr set him for Bran's murder, but he knew that since before the Battle of the Blackwater, and he didn't move against Petyr before Petyr left for the Vale, so it would take something more. If he were to figure out that Petyr had Mandon Moore try to kill him, that would certainly do it. Or the jousting dwarfs. Penny might let slip some more information on that. Tyrion also knows a bit about Jeyne Poole, and that Petyr informed on Tyrell's plan to wed Sansa to Willas. If he figures out that Petyr set up Joffrey's murder and learn that Petyr is currently manipulating his wife, whom he still might feel some obligation to protect, that could motivate him too. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Petyr has been trying to get rid of Tyrion since the beginning of the story, probably because he knows T is the one person in Westeros -- perhaps besides Varys -- who can unravel all of his plotting. Note:

Petyr fingered (sorry) Tyrion as the owner of the knife, implicating him in Bran's attempted murder.

Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater, which Tyrion concluded was at Cersei's direction. But Ser Mandon -- a truly weird character if there every was one -- comes from the Vale and was named to the KG at Arryn's request. So LF's stink is all over this.

Most people disagree, and the explanation is long and convoluted, but the fact is that the poison at the Purple Wedding was in Tyrion's pie, not the wine, which means both LF and Lady O were trying to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

GRRM's plots don't work in perfect symmetry where the righteous vanquish the wicked and all justice is served, but there is unfinished business between these two.

I mostly agree with except for the bit about the pie. But you don't need the bit about the pie to make your point. 

[Morgana Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion knows that Petyr set him for Bran's murder, but he knew that since before the Battle of the Blackwater, and he didn't move against Petyr before Petyr left for the Vale, so it would take something more. If he were to figure out that Petyr had Mandon Moore try to kill him, that would certainly do it. Or the jousting dwarfs. Penny might let slip some more information on that. Tyrion also knows a bit about Jeyne Poole, and that Petyr informed on Tyrell's plan to wed Sansa to Willas. If he figures out that Petyr set up Joffrey's murder and learn that Petyr is currently manipulating his wife, whom he still might feel some obligation to protect, that could motivate him too. 

I agree with all of that; he really has plenty of motive.  I always wondered why he didn't just have him thrown into a pot of brown in Flea Bottom lol at the time but Tyrion is a player and he probably couldn't afford to wreck that sort of havoc at the time or needed him for his own schemes but I doubt he has forgotten.  Penny, yes, that could be the connection, he could find out that it was FL who hired the dwarves (although that in itself wouldn't push him over the edge at this stage I don't think).  Sansa and him talking though...  I reckon that will be the detonator.  I reckon they will meet for other reasons, or just will happen to be in the same negotiating table or something but it would be awesome if they had "that talk"

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

True Tyrion does know LF framed him for the dagger.  I just don't think that is enough that for LF to really be on Tyrion's "list." Considering the OP's question of does the plot demand a LF/Tyrion reckoning I don't think it does because of what the characters know. If Tyrion and LF never meet again I don't think it takes anything away from the plot. There are a lot of other reunions that I would put ahead of LF/Tyrion. I'm not saying there's no way Tyrion could be involved in LF's death. The idea you mentioned would be a good one. However, I do think LF will be dead before Tyrion can even get back to Westeros and even think about killing him.

I respect your opinion, and the way you present it. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm thinking, at the beginning of Thrones, Petyr looks at Tyrion as a potential threat -- someone he can use as a patsy to get the ball rolling. Once Tyrion becomes Hand, and then MoC, of course, he is an immediate and significant threat who has to be removed right away.

Petyr simply saw Tyrion as an easy mark. It was purely opportunistic on Petyr's part, classic Littlefinger. And it fit so nicely with the intrigue the George had going on in early Game. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

What reason would Olenna have to kill Tyrion. Kill Sansa's husband to leave her open for Willas? Also, did Joffrey eat Tyrion's pie? Didn't the pie he ate come from the wedding pie that he and Marg had just cut and hadn't been served to anyone else yet?

Joffrey, being the ass that he was, was eating from Tyrion’s pie. Tyrion, apparently did not. Although one could argue (probably not persuasively) that Tyrion might have taken a bite or two. 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

This is going to be a twist, I think. Penny will kill Baelish when she figures out that he killed Groat and made it look as if it had been part of the general dwarf-killing spree in response to the reward offered for Tyrion's death.

That's funny:  the former master of coin killed by a penny of his own making!

P.S.  Where is the text reference to the dragon eggs you mentioned?

2 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I originally thought it would be Tyrion flying up to the Vale

I think flying will be involved in Littlefinger's death -- with him flying down through the moon door!  After all, he always wanted to be a bird and escape his station (actually, my impression is he's a snake masquerading as a bird).  There's also Sweetrobyn's eternal plaintive request, 'to make the bad man fly'...So a moonflight would satisfy two wishes at once:  one could say 'kill two birds with one stone'!  Exiting via a 'weirwood' door would also be poetic justice, considering how much damage Littlefinger's wrought on the north.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Petyr has been trying to get rid of Tyrion since the beginning of the story, probably because he knows T is the one person in Westeros -- perhaps besides Varys -- who can unravel all of his plotting. Note:

Petyr fingered (sorry) Tyrion as the owner of the knife, implicating him in Bran's attempted murder.

Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater, which Tyrion concluded was at Cersei's direction. But Ser Mandon -- a truly weird character if there every was one -- comes from the Vale and was named to the KG at Arryn's request. So LF's stink is all over this.

Most people disagree, and the explanation is long and convoluted, but the fact is that the poison at the Purple Wedding was in Tyrion's pie, not the wine, which means both LF and Lady O were trying to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

GRRM's plots don't work in perfect symmetry where the righteous vanquish the wicked and all justice is served, but there is unfinished business between these two.

That's a neat summary. Both Littlefinger and Tyrion speak about people as pieces and life as a cyvasse game.  If Westeros is the board, then they're both engaged in facing off against each other in a cyvasse game.  Tyrion is a known cyvasse master, and not taken in by Littlefinger in the least, so it behooves Littlefinger to 'remove' Tyrion from the board.  I agree with your first statement which I've bolded.  I think it's as simple as fearing Tyrion's intelligence.  Tyrion's not fooled and therefore can't be played.  Not only is he of no use to Littlefinger, he's a risk he can't afford.

Of everyone, Tyrion 'gets' Littlefinger best of all, as evidenced by the following quote which I've always loved:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Catelyn paid dearly for her blind spot when it came to sweet little Petyr.  Tyrion sees matters clearly, and this makes him dangerous.

As to 'fingering Tyrion' -- that dwarf keeps slipping through his finger(s)!

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But maybe, just maybe, Sansa is not that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow?

It has to be Sansa.  There's not enough dramatic irony with Arya or Tyrion for that matter.  

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, FacelessDude said:

Hmmm. I always figured it would be Sansa once she fully realizes what role Petyr played in her father's death. Especially after Littlefinger teaches her everything she needs to know about the game of thrones. 

Or maybe Arya?

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree with all of that; he really has plenty of motive.  I always wondered why he didn't just have him thrown into a pot of brown in Flea Bottom lol at the time but Tyrion is a player and he probably couldn't afford to wreck that sort of havoc at the time or needed him for his own schemes but I doubt he has forgotten.  Penny, yes, that could be the connection, he could find out that it was FL who hired the dwarves (although that in itself wouldn't push him over the edge at this stage I don't think).  Sansa and him talking though...  I reckon that will be the detonator.  I reckon they will meet for other reasons, or just will happen to be in the same negotiating table or something but it would be awesome if they had "that talk"

I just can't see Tyrion and Sansa meeting as long as Petyr is alive. Tyrion learning that Petyr has Sansa might be enough to motivate Tyrion though. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

That's funny:  the former master of coin killed by a penny of his own making!

P.S.  Where is the text reference to the dragon eggs you mentioned?

This was one  of the posts where I put out what I believe to be GRRM's clue regarding the dragon eggs. This is an older post with some other details. I'm no longer entirely convinced about all the details, but the general "A Grand Gift" idea seems promising to me.

I recently read a passage where Tyrion, as the new Master of Coins, is trying to figure out the "maze" where Littlefinger hid dragons (meaning the coins) or something to that effect. Ah, here's the quote:

He went back to work after she left, trying to track some golden dragons through the labyrinth of Littlefinger's ledgers. Petyr Baelish had not believed in letting gold sit about and grow dusty, that was for certain, but the more Tyrion tried to make sense of his accounts the more his head hurt. It was all very well to talk of breeding dragons instead of locking them up in the treasury, but some of these ventures smelled worse than week-old fish. (ASoS, Tyrion VI)

There is also the dialogue where Petyr tells Sansa that Cersei coming unhinged is accelerating the timetable he had in mind - I think he wanted time for his dragons to mature, but he is willing to carry on.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Seams said:

There is also the dialogue where Petyr tells Sansa that Cersei coming unhinged is accelerating the timetable he had in mind - I think he wanted time for his dragons to mature, but he is willing to carry on.

That reminds me of that quote about Littlefinger's 'dragon-breeding' talents...'rubbing two dragons together to breed a third.'  I think 'breed' is mentioned twice in connection with LF, perhaps so we take note of it.  Previously, I had linked 'breed' with human sexuality, but perhaps there's something to your dragon angle!  Then, there's all the connections you've unearthed for him in relation to eggs, juggling, and hatching, which I suppose might be applicable.

[Seams]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

That reminds me of that quote about Littlefinger's 'dragon-breeding' talents...'rubbing two dragons together to breed a third.'  I think 'breed' is mentioned twice in connection with LF, perhaps so we take note of it.  Previously, I had linked 'breed' with human sexuality, but perhaps there's something to your dragon angle!  Then, there's all the connections you've unearthed for him in relation to eggs, juggling, and hatching, which I supposed might be applicable.

There's also a scene with Catelyn at Oldstones, recalling playing Jenny of Oldstones as a kid, with Petyr playing the Prince of Dragonflies.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Seams said:

Prince of Dragonflies

Subtle!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hmm... your dragon breeding comments have wondering... Petyr is expecting Daenerys to come with fire and blood and dragons. 

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hmm... your dragon breeding comments have wondering... Petyr is expecting Daenerys to come with fire and blood and dragons. 

She could be the third queen in his statement to Sansa that Westeros will have a war time surviving the three queens, behind Cersei and Marge. He might have been paying closer attention to Essos than most, I am sure his friends in the trading industry are.