Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[LmL]

Ok here you go: grass taller than a man = Doran Martell, the grass in which the red viper hides. White Lion is Jaime, a Lannister of the KG, and he's going to literally run Doran through with a sword. 

#notexactly 

[LmL]

I should start a series called "Bad Myth-Reading" which would be like bad lip-reading. Hah. Sometimes strange and obviously wrong interpretations of symbolism occur to me, sometimes they are quite funny. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, LmL said:

I don't think this is Brienne because she is nowhere called lion-hearted that I can recall, nor any other lion symbol. She is also not associated with white.

Ive always figured that was Tyrion - he's a white lion because he has partially white hair and is foreshadowed to ride Viserion possibly. It's easier for grass to be taller than a man if that man is a half-man. 

Yes it could be.  If you recall Jon's first POV; Tyrion's shadow as tall as a king.  Symbolically, when Jaime raises her up, gives her armor and Oathkeeper; she is really carrying out her vows and his.  She's his proxy in that sense, commissioned by the LC of the white cloaks himself. But I could go for either one.   

[LmL]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes it could be.  If you recall Jon's first POV; Tyrion's shadow as tall as a king.  Symbolically, when Jaime raises her up, gives her armor and Oathkeeper; she is really carrying out her vows and his.  She's his proxy in that sense, commissioned by the LC of the white cloaks himself. But I could go for either one.   

If Brienne had been labeled as a lion, I would say ok perhaps. IMO, if George wanted her to be the white lion she would need to be specifically labeled with white and with lions. She has a lion sword, but no white whatsoever. And no association with grass or something that grass symbolizes, so it doesn't seem like a strong contender. She is pretty clearly associated with a color, and that is blue. A blue lion vision would make sense for Brienne, possibly, though I do no let think George is telling us to think of Brienne as a lion. She is a cow person though, which means lunar, and her birthplace and lineage make her a Morningstar / Evenstar person.

I am far from certain it is Tyrion, fwiw. Could be Jaime. We will have to wait until the grass part of it makes sense. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

That's a great scene indeed, although the double meaning of "bay" has somehow never occurred to me. Blood bay, duh! Nice one. The main thing I remember from that one is the throwing of Lion's Tooth into the river - I mentioned that while talking about Joff a couple of essays ago. I'm not sure Joff is ever a moon figure though is he? One thing to remember is that it's not just the sun killing the moon - the moon kills the sun right back because it's explosion and the impact of its meteors is what blocks out the sun. That's what happens when Joff is poisoned by Sansa'a hairnet. Those are purple amethyst moon snakes darkening the sun's face. 

I've never seen Joff as moon figure before, but when I was reading that scene again, I couldn't help it! He's all sun when he's attacking Mycah or fighting back against Arya, but when Arya attacks Joff there's her sword smashing into his head with a loud crack, his head bleeding, her sword breaking, etc. That's why I thought maybe he's sun when in attack mode and moon when under attack (in this scene).

I thnk the moon attacking back is symbolised in this scene by the grey blur sent into the air (Nymeria) to retaliate against the sun (Joff), taking away his power.

You're right though, with 6 massive books full of this stuff you could be writing essays for the next 10 years!! 

That Joffrey death scene is another fantastic one (and never fails to make me smile!)

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

I am far from certain it is Tyrion, fwiw. Could be Jaime. We will have to wait until the grass part of it makes sense.

The parting of the grass sea?  LOL!  I don't want to take your thread off track.  There must be something more to the 'white' lion as opposed to the golden lion.  Jaime is the 'golden man' is he not?  So perhaps, Tyrion fits the bill for a white lion.  There is very little on the mythology of the white lion (which can actually be blond with blue eyes), but I think you will find this African legend interesting since it involves a falling star:

Oral traditions recalls the appearance of white lions over 400 years ago during the reign of Queen Numbi in the region now known as Timbavati. A shining star was seen to fall to the ground, but when Queen Numbi and her people approached, they found it to be a shining ball of metal, brighter than the sun. Queen Numbi, who was an elderly and infirm woman, was swallowed by its light and received by strange beings. When she emerged again, she had been restored to health and youth. The fallen star remained there for some days and then rose back into the sky.

I'm actually surprised to find this reference.  It might not be a stretch to think that Martin knows about while lion conservation efforts or even the legends about them; given his interest in wolf conservancy.  White lions are as rare in Westeros as they are in Africa.  

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

20 hours ago, LmL said:

Volcanism is interesting because the concept of terrestrial fire is sometimes associated with the "Night Sun," such as in Mesoamerican myth. They thought of the sun journeying through the underworld at night, and this is represented by the idea of fire under the earth. Thus Akbal, the Night Sun deity, is called "the Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire and War."

Tezcatlipoca as well the smoking mirror of Mexica/Aztec culture. 

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Tezcatlipoca as well the smoking mirror of Mexica/Aztec culture. 

The obsidian mirror thing is wicked. Associated with sorcery and astral travel. Venus, aka Quetzalcoatl, is also called the "smokey-eyed star."

[LmL]

@LynnS, very cool find, I'll respond a bit later when I get home

[Pain killer Jane]

5 minutes ago, LmL said:

The obsidian mirror thing is wicked. Associated with sorcery and astral travel. Venus, aka Quetzalcoatl, is also called the "smokey-eyed star."

[Pain killer Jane]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

The obsidian mirror thing is wicked. Associated with sorcery and astral travel. Venus, aka Quetzalcoatl, is also called the "smokey-eyed star."

He is also called Bolon Tzcab or better spelled  Balon Zacab and is related to Huracan the Ki'che Maya deity.

Plus you would also like Ix Chel (red woman) and Goddess I (white woman) lunar deities.

[sweetsunray]

On 17-9-2016 at 7:09 PM, LmL said:

Currently re-listening to ADWD, I just heard that when Roose Bolton enters Ramsay's feast while at Harwood Stout's keep on the way to WF, Roose enters the hall with 12 men in grey mail and a "wash of wind." Ramsay smiles a wet, greasy smile and greats his father. Greasy for greasy stone, making Ramsay a bloodstone type (confirmed elsewhere as well, he's a parallel to Jon as a Lord Snow). His dad a Last Hero type? I've noticed a lot of the 12+1 equations place very bad people in the role of LH. Joffrey one time, now Roose. Could be nothing, because people like Sam and Ghost are also placed in this role, but it's worth noting. Roose clearly has Other symbolism, and he's a LH type?

Just noticed a monstrous cod was part of the meal brought by Manderly. Dagon Codd is an Ironborn fellow, and Dagon is of course a Sumerian fish-man deity. Monstrous, surely. More clues about the Ironborn as fish people. 

Pondering about the 12+1.  tWoW, Alayne I

Spoiler

There's a mention of Cersei having 12 dwarf heads already, but none of them are Tyrion

I'm wondering whether the 13th we see pop up are possible candidates toform a team of 13 at present. We can rule out Joffrey for that already, since he's dead. Or, possibly they are LH descendants? After 8000 years you'd have lots of descendants, no?

ETA: here's a 12+1 quote for Arya, aCoK, Arya III: Arya makes water on the way to the Gods Eye with Yoren, and a pack of 12 wolves approach and surround her. Arya is the 13th wolf.

Quote

She was making water, her clothing tangled about her ankles, when she heard rustling from under the trees. Hot Pie, she thought in panic, he followed me. Then she saw the eyes shining out from the wood, bright with reflected moonlight. Her belly clenched tight as she grabbed for Needle, not caring if she pissed herself, counting eyes, two four eight twelve, a whole pack . . .

One of them came padding out from under the trees. He stared at her, and bared his teeth, and all she could think was how stupid she'd been and how Hot Pie would gloat when they found her half-eaten body the next morning. But the wolf turned and raced back into the darkness, and quick as that the eyes were gone. Trembling, she cleaned herself and laced up and followed a distant scraping sound back to camp, and to Yoren. Arya climbed up into the wagon beside him, shaken. "Wolves," she whispered hoarsely. "In the woods."

In a Davos chapter 12 ships managed not to regroup after being blown across the Narrow Sea by a storm. aCoK, Davos III

Quote

The winds had not used them kindly on the voyage up from Storm's End. They had lost two cogs to the rocks of Shipbreaker Bay on the very day they set sail, a poor way to begin. One of the Myrish galleys had foundered in the Straits of Tarth, and a storm had overtaken them as they were entering the Gullet, scattering the fleet across half the narrow sea. All but twelve ships had finally regrouped behind the sheltering spine of Massey's Hook, in the calmer waters of Blackwater Bay, but not before they had lost considerable time.

leeches in aSoS, prologue, Roose or one of the maesters

Quote

ometimes he made Chett help pull the leeches off. One had attached itself to his palm once, and he'd smashed it against a wall in revulsion. His father beat him bloody for that. The maesters bought the leeches at twelve-for-a-penny.

apprentice seamstress (needlework), in aSoS, Sansa II

Quote

"Oh, sooner, much sooner, Her Grace insists. I have six seamstresses and twelve apprentice girls, and we have set all our other work aside for this. Many ladies will be cross with us, but it was the queen's command."

jade monkey (Tyrion hint) and pickled cave fish, in aSoS, Dany III

Quote

Ser Jorah barked a command, and the trade goods were brought forward. Six bales of tiger skins, three hundred bolts of fine silk. Jars of saffron, jars of myrrh, jars of pepper and curry and cardamom, an onyx mask, twelve jade monkeys, casks of ink in red and black and green, a box of rare black amethysts, a box of pearls, a cask of pitted olives stuffed with maggots, a dozen casks of pickled cave fish, a great brass gong and a hammer to beat it with, seventeen ivory eyes, and a huge chest full of books written in tongues that Dany could not read. And more, and more, and more. Her people stacked it all before the slavers.

12 kings, in aSoS, Arya II

 

Quote

 

Well, here's to His Grace," Anguy the Archer called out cheerfully, lifting a toast. "Seven save the king!"

"All twelve o' them," Lem Lemoncloak muttered. He drank, and wiped the foam from his mouth with the back of his hand.

 

 

12 houses of heaven, in aSoS, Jon III

Quote

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning.

12 turnkeys, in aFfC, Jaime I, possible a reference to Varys who masked as a turnkey.

Quote

"Gaolers?" Longwaters sniffed. "Those were no gaolers. They were merely turnkeys. The crown pays wages for twenty turnkeys, my lord, a full score, but during my time we have never had more than twelve. We are supposed to have six undergaolers as well, two on each level, but there are only the three."

12 lost lives, sailors (and 3 of them Dornish), in aDwD, the Merchant's Man

Quote

The corsairs had come aboard in the darkness before the dawn, as the Meadowlark was anchored off the coast of the Disputed Lands. The crew had beaten them off, at the cost of twelve lives.

12 dragons, in aDwD, Davos I

Quote

"M'lord," said the captain, "we found this man in the Belly o' the Whale, trying to buy his way off island. He had twelve dragons on him, and this thing too." The captain put it on the table by the lord: a wide ribbon of black velvet trimmed with cloth-of-gold, and bearing three seals; a crowned stag stamped in golden beeswax, a flaming heart in red, a hand in white.

12 spearwives, in aDwD, Jon VII

Quote

"Hardin's Tower." Of the sixty-three who had come back with him from Mole's Town, nineteen had been women and girls. Jon had housed them in the same abandoned tower where he had once slept when he had been new to the Wall. Twelve were spearwives, more than capable of defending both themselves and the younger girls from the unwanted attentions of black brothers.

There's a hint for The Norrey as the 13th, in aDwD, Jon X

 

Quote

 

Old Flint and The Norrey had been given places of high honor just below the dais. Both men had been too old to march with Stannis; they had sent their sons and grandsons in their stead. But they had been quick enough to descend on Castle Black for the wedding. Each had brought a wet nurse to the Wall as well. The Norrey woman was forty, with the biggest breasts Jon Snow had ever seen. The Flint girl was fourteen and flat-chested as a boy, though she did not lack for milk. Between the two of them, the child Val called Monster seemed to be thriving.

For that much Jon was grateful … but he did not believe for a moment that two such hoary old warriors would have hied down from their hills for that alone. Each had brought a tail of fighting men—five for Old Flint, twelve for The Norrey, all clad in ragged skins and studded leathers, fearsome as the face of winter. Some had long beards, some had scars, some had both; all worshiped the old gods of the north, those same gods worshiped by the free folk beyond the Wall. Yet here they sat, drinking to a marriage hallowed by some queer red god from beyond the seas.

 

Catelyn (now LS) seems a 13th. She manages to rouse a dozen swords to arrest Tyrion

Quote

 

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face. (aGoT, Catelyn V)

A good dozen swords had responded to the Stark woman's plea for help: the Harrenhal man, the three Brackens, a pair of unsavory sellswords who looked as though they'd kill him as soon as spit, and some fool field hands who doubtless had no idea what they were doing. (aGoT, Tyrion IV)

 

Lord Nestor reference as the 13th.

Quote

"She says yes, provided she finds a man who suits her," Brynden Tully said, "but she has already rejected Lord Nestor and a dozen other suitable men. She swears that this time she will choose her lord husband." (aGoT, Catelyn VI)

A woman as the 13th

 

Quote

 

An hour later the horses had been rubbed down and fed, the fire was crackling away merrily, and a haunch of a young goat was turning above the flames, spitting and hissing. "All we lack now is some good wine to wash down our kid," Tyrion said.

"That, a woman, and another dozen swords," Bronn said. (aGoT, Tyrion VI)

 

 

etc...

[The Fattest Leech]

@LmL Any idea on when you will have your next essay recorded? You mentioned one in the Grey King chapter that was upcoming and had to do with moon, or fallen moons?
 My apologies if you have already answered this 100 times. I scanned and did not see the answer.

Also, loving the GK chapter and I love that  you record these things. It makes it so much easier to do two things at once and keep up with the lightening fast information that moves through the threads. I have been taking lotsa' notes in this listen because I hear a some things that could possibly be a crossover to my own little pet project as well

[Pain killer Jane]

@LmL

You know how we have been talking about fire and stone. What do you make of the saying about Astapor?

Dany V, aDwD

Quote

Brick and blood built Astapor, and brick and blood its people. The old rhyme rang in her head. Ash and bone is Astapor, and ash and bone its people

Bricks are fired clay. 

Ash is anything reduced by fire and devoid of moisture or just pure carbon especially if it is wood ash.

Blood- ?

Bone- ?

I have an inclining but it is a thought that isn't put together yet. 

[LmL]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@LmL Any idea on when you will have your next essay recorded? You mentioned one in the Grey King chapter that was upcoming and had to do with moon, or fallen moons?
 My apologies if you have already answered this 100 times. I scanned and did not see the answer.

Also, loving the GK chapter and I love that  you record these things. It makes it so much easier to do two things at once and keep up with the lightening fast information that moves through the threads. I have been taking lotsa' notes in this listen because I hear a some things that could possibly be a crossover to my own little pet project as well

The one I was talking about is actually a series I am going to do about "moons of ice and fire," probably 3 essays total, which explore the ice moon / fire moon idea. Next up will be the Great Empire of the Dawn episode with Aziz of History of Westeros, and then I will be going back to the weirwood compendium and greenseers, where we will follow up on the Grey King episode and get further into that whole ball of wax. 

I'm glad you're enjoying the podcasts, it's a lot of fun to make them, though it is time consuming. That's why I have started a patreon account to allow people to sponsor the podcast project if they so desire. That's helped a great deal, and has been very encouraging.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

@LmL

You know how we have been talking about fire and stone. What do you make of the saying about Astapor?

Dany V, aDwD

Bricks are fired clay. 

Ash is anything reduced by fire and devoid of moisture or just pure carbon especially if it is wood ash.

Blood- ?

Bone- ?

I have an inclining but it is a thought that isn't put together yet. 

Blood and bone is the description of the weirwood coloring, as well as Ghost's. I have had a thought about this line before but I would need to review the symbolism round Astapor to draw any conclusions. They sound like bleeding and burned people. Is that talking about bleeding stars that burn and trail ash? Or weirwood trees, which look like a person weeping blood with flaming hands and hair. 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

Blood and bone is the description of the weirwood coloring, as well as Ghost's. I have had a thought about this line before but I would need to review the symbolism round Astapor to draw any conclusions. They sound like bleeding and burned people. Is that talking about bleeding stars that burn and trail ash? Or weirwood trees, which look like a person weeping blood with flaming hands and hair. 

Could be both since the greenseers are drowned stone dragon/crow meteor people. 'The bleeding stars that burn and trail ash' reminds me of the River Ash. And that leads me to Huzhor Amai and his Gipps wife and her lime stiffened hair (which is the residue when coral- bones of sea creatures- is burned and used to protect from the sun). 

[LmL]

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

12 dragons, in aDwD, Davos I

Quote

"M'lord," said the captain, "we found this man in the Belly o' the Whale, trying to buy his way off island. He had twelve dragons on him, and this thing too." The captain put it on the table by the lord: a wide ribbon of black velvet trimmed with cloth-of-gold, and bearing three seals; a crowned stag stamped in golden beeswax, a flaming heart in red, a hand in white.

This is actually what we want - a group of twelve plus some interesting 13th. Here we have 12 dragons - fire people, the 12 NW companion of the Last Hero - and the 13th thing is a burning stag related thing. That's what we want. 

I think the Bronn quote about another dozen swords places Bronn as the 13th - he is the first "sword," if which they need twelve more. I have never examined Bronn's symbolism though. However I am not against the idea of a girl playing some part of this role of course. 

Quote

 

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face. (aGoT, Catelyn V)

A good dozen swords had responded to the Stark woman's plea for help: the Harrenhal man, the three Brackens, a pair of unsavory sellswords who looked as though they'd kill him as soon as spit, and some fool field hands who doubtless had no idea what they were doing. (aGoT, Tyrion IV)

 

Yes, Cat is a Nissa Nissa reborn, which is just a female AA reborn. She's an undead fire person. He association with hanging may be a link to Odin and the idea of being hung on the tree, as Bloodraven is. 

Quote

"She says yes, provided she finds a man who suits her," Brynden Tully said, "but she has already rejected Lord Nestor and a dozen other suitable men. She swears that this time she will choose her lord husband." (aGoT, Catelyn VI)

Nestor Royce is a great Last Hero, especially since I believe Waymar plays that role in the prologue. First Man, magic sword and armor, runes and shit... sigil with black iron studs on a field of bronze.. Robar becomes Robar the Red (think AA) in Renly's guard, then was slain by Loras in a rage, making him a sacrifice. He also aided Brienne and Cat, letting them escape after Renly's murder. 

Quote

"Hardin's Tower." Of the sixty-three who had come back with him from Mole's Town, nineteen had been women and girls. Jon had housed them in the same abandoned tower where he had once slept when he had been new to the Wall. Twelve were spearwives, more than capable of defending both themselves and the younger girls from the unwanted attentions of black brothers.

Interesting that 19 appears he also, since there are 19 forts on the Wall. 19 should be a symbol of the NW, and so that make sit more likely the 12 spear wives are too. Who would be the 13th though?

Quote

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning.

13 here would be the SOTM, I am fairly certain. The ice dragon represents the Others, I would think, the Shadowcat is the Lion of Night or the Night Sun, and the Moonmaid would be Nissa Nissa / the moon that died. 

Quote

 

Well, here's to His Grace," Anguy the Archer called out cheerfully, lifting a toast. "Seven save the king!"

"All twelve o' them," Lem Lemoncloak muttered. He drank, and wiped the foam from his mouth with the back of his hand.

 

I believe these 12 undead greenseers m,right have been kings or royalty in some sense. The 13th here would be Robert, the real king Anguy is toasting. Dead Robert, that is, heh.

Let's take a closer look at the Arya quote you pulled:

Quote

 

She was making water, her clothing tangled about her ankles, when she heard rustling (communication of the weirwood leaves) from under the trees (where greenseers live). Hot Pie, she thought in panic, he followed me. Then she saw the eyes shining out from the wood (where greenseers come from), bright with reflected moonlight (shining moon eyes = meteors). Her belly clenched tight as she grabbed for Needle (almost as if Needle were already stuck in her gut?), not caring if she pissed herself (stick a man and the water leaks out), counting eyes, two four eight twelve, a whole pack . . .

One of them came padding out from under the trees (again, where greenseer come from). He stared at her, and bared (bare branches / bear ideas?) his teeth, and all she could think was how stupid she'd been and how Hot Pie would gloat when they found her half-eaten body (Last Hero = sacrifice, but resurrected, a.k.a. "half dead")  the next morning (the dawn after the LN). But the wolf turned and raced back into the darkness, and quick as that the eyes were gone. Trembling, she cleaned herself and laced up and followed a distant scraping sound back to camp, and to Yoren. Arya climbed up into the wagon beside him, shaken. "Wolves," she whispered hoarsely. "In the woods."

 

Gives a new spin to "Wolfswood" doesn't it? That's the forest that used to maybe be known as the Blackwood, right? 

So far most of these clues tend to jibe with my thinking on the Last Hero - he was a sacrificed solar person or a morningstar / son of the sun person (this is how Joffrey ties in ). He was a greenseer: Joffrey part Stag, Arya skinchanger, Cat hangwoman, burning stag, and the twelve zodiacs are tied to the 12 children of Garth the Green from the Worldbook (episode forthcoming on that).  His companions, the first 12 NW, were greenseers or skinchangers are quite possibly of royal or special blood. They may have been green men / horned lords or hybrid offspring of some kind. And so on. 

Thanks for grabbing all of these! There are a ton more. 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Could be both since the greenseers are drowned stone dragon/crow meteor people. 'The bleeding stars that burn and trail ash' reminds me of the River Ash. And that leads me to Huzhor Amai and his Gipps wife and her lime stiffened hair (which is the residue when coral- bones of sea creatures- is burned and used to protect from the sun). 

But to see which if these ideas Astapor might be a clue about we need to look at Astapor and those chapters. Astapor os the red city, so I would tend to think it's bricks and people who are blood and ash and bone are meteor people. 

I saw your comment about the Gipps and lime but I am not quite sure where you mean to go with that.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

I saw your comment about the Gipps and lime but I am not quite sure where you mean to go with that.

I found it interesting that Huzor Amai was the descendant of the Fisher Queens and one of his wives has the burned bones of dead sea creatures in her hair and I was looking for an instance in real life and it was mostly practiced in the Samoas and only used when fishing.