Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[LmL]

11 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

First off, LmL, I have to thank you for giving me so much enthusiasm and respect for the books. The mythology that you're digging out is just so awesome, and I would definitely have missed out on a lot without your essays. 

Right on @Jon Ice-Eyes, that's music to my ears. It's all for the glory of Martin's writing.  The number one goal is to get people looking at this stuff and appreciating what Martin has done. It's fun to draw conclusions and theorize, but the main thing is the use of metaphor and symbol itself as a phenomena. 

11 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

As for the above poster, I think that there actually is something to be gotten by looking at different types of fire, namely earth-fire vs. star-fire.

The notion I have is that the naughty greenseers (yeah, I'm sticking with that one as long as possible!)

I think that title works well, too, actually...

11 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

brought down star-fire and created -- or tamed, or engineered -- dragons thereby. In the Long Night they became the fledgling Valyrian Empire, using their Lightbringer dragons (and swords probably) to end the darkness, out of the corpse of the GEotD -- bloodstone => valerian, as you figured out. Think of the Medes starting the Persian Empire as a rebellion that toppled the Babylonians. Being evil they enslaved widely and fell to corrupt ways; but at length, they were extinguished by volcanoes. 

The point here is that they started in star-fire, which is corrupting, and were annihilated by earth-fire, which acts to balance. 

I'm just spitballing here. It's been a thought that has been with me since your early essays. 

Ok, interesting angle here. I tend to agree that the black meteors were used to create the current form of the dragon bond, something like that. All the hints about the BSE involve blood magic, necromancy, etc, and one wonders if the experiments with human-animal hybrids rumored about on Gorgossos might be a remnant of the Bloodstone Emperor's experiments. Hell, I've even theorized that Sothroyos is basically overrun with monsters the BSE created with his experimentation... but that's pretty out there in speculation land. I tend to think that the GEOTD had a way to control dragons prior to the LN, because they were making fused stone structures like the 5 Forts and Battle Isle before the LN, and those can only made with dragonfire and sorcery.

But I wonder about the methods of bonding with dragons... Dany has a psychic bond more like a skinchanger bond, but less direct; we've also been shown the dragonbinder horn which may or may not bind dragons to your will. I personally believe that the dragon bond may be a mutation of greenseer magic, and that's how I think this all makes sense - the GEotD were greenseers who bonded with dragons in a fairly natural, mutually agreeable fashion (more like the Starks with their wolves as opposed to Varymyr mind-raping his snow bear and shadow cat). I think the BSE / AA transformed himself with fire magic, as the burning tree story suggests, and out of this transformation was born the idea of a person who is fire made flesh, whose body is sustained by fire magic, as Melisandre's is. The black meteors seem to have triggered this transformation, so it follows that this new type of undead or transformed fiery greenseer is someone who gained power during the Long Night, just as the BSE was said to do. The Valyrians seem to have inherited the darker magic of the BSE, so one wonders if the "blood of the dragon" thing was established at the time of the BSE. Perhaps he had to become a being of fire to master dragons the way he wanted to? The symbolism is one of AA becoming the dragon here, being reborn as a dragon, just as the sun and moon fucked each other to make dragon offspring. 

This is one of those areas which is ripe for speculation. I hope that we will get some kind of answer before the series is over. My own thoughts turn to Daenerys, who has a healthy dose of Blackwood blood in her views. Did some amount of greenseer ability allow Dany to wake the dragon eggs? Is Jon's blood important because it combines FM (skinchanger / greenseer) blood with the blood of the dragon?

[LmL]

By the way, I just realized on another great thread by @hiemal that the name of the Castle Pyke is a big clue. The word pyke suggests both a fish and a pointy stabbing weapon, and that's what the sea dragon is all about, being both a fish and a pointy weapon - a sword meteor which thrust into the bowels of the sea. Pyke sits at the end of the broken sword point of land, so all in all the symbolism is very consistent. 

[Bluetiger]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

By the way, I just realized on another great thread by @hiemal that the name of the Castle Pyke is a big clue. The word pyke suggests both a fish and a pointy stabbing weapon, and that's what the sea dragon is all about, being both a fish and a pointy weapon - a sword meteor which thrust into the bowels of the sea. Pyke sits at the end of the broken sword point of land, so all in all the symbolism is very consistent. 

Robert's warhammer is spiked as well: 

Quote

Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.

And:

Quote

Ser Rodrik shouted "Winterfell!" and rode to meet him, with Bronn and Chiggen beside him, screaming some wordless battle cry. Ser Willis Wode followed, swinging a spiked morningstar around his head. "Harrenhal! Harrenhal!

Usullied have spikes on theirs helmets - 1 for soldiers and 3 for officers.

 

Idk what's the deal with spikes and and number 3 and 9 - number of big dragon meteors?

Vylarr grew hesitant. "His Grace has told us he wishes the traitors' heads to remain on the walls until he fills those last three empty spikes there on the end.

Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black ironspikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

 

"And who are you, old man? One of Lord Beric's cravens?" called the knight in the spiked helm. "If that fat fool Thoros is in there, ask him how he likes these fires."  

There are also 3 castles of House Peake - Starpike, Dunstonebury and Whitegrove (Weirwood grove?)

Shagwell dropped from the weirwood, braying laughter. He was garbed in motley, but so faded and stained that it showed more brown than grey or pink. In place of a jester's flail he had a triple morningstar, three spiked balls chained to a wooden haft. He swung it hard and low, and one of Crabb's knees exploded in a spray of blood and bone. "That's funny," Shagwell crowed as Dick fell.

 

Btw, I noticed this while reading SoS Jaime's first chapter:

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The range was less than twenty yards. The archers could scarcely have missed, but as they pulled on their longbows a rain of pebbles cascaded down around them. Small stones rattled on their deck, bounced off their helms, and made splashes on both sides of the bow. Those who had wits enough to understand raised their eyes just as a boulder the size of a cow detached itself from the top of the bluff. Ser Robin shouted in dismay. The stone tumbled through the air, struck the face of the cliff, cracked in two, and smashed down on them. The larger piece snapped the mast, tore through the sail, sent two of the archers flying into the river, and crushed the leg of a rower as he bent over his oar. The rapidity with which the galley began to fill with water suggested that the  smaller fragment had punched right through her hull. The oarsman's screams echoed off the bluff while the archers flailed wildly in the current. From the way they were splashing, neither man could swim. Jaime laughed.

 

[LmL]

On September 6, 2016 at 8:59 AM, sweetsunray said:

George can play around with that. Bears in folklore are actually just men who can skinchange into the bear animal, with a bird spirit on top of it. In his den a bear is a man. When he leaves his den he turns into a bear. Tolkien used that for his Beorn character in The Hobbit. George uses it mostly symbolically with men being naked bear-characters. Some of them might actually be skinchangers - Varamyr skinchanges a bear for example. Abd if characters in the books are actual in-world skinchangers I also think that like Varamyr they can don on multiple "skins". So, Jon can be a shadowcat one time, a stand in bear double another time, a wolf in sheepskin, etc...

Currently re-listening to ADWD, I just heard that when Roose Bolton enters Ramsay's feast while at Harwood Stout's keep on the way to WF, Roose enters the hall with 12 men in grey mail and a "wash of wind." Ramsay smiles a wet, greasy smile and greats his father. Greasy for greasy stone, making Ramsay a bloodstone type (confirmed elsewhere as well, he's a parallel to Jon as a Lord Snow). His dad a Last Hero type? I've noticed a lot of the 12+1 equations place very bad people in the role of LH. Joffrey one time, now Roose. Could be nothing, because people like Sam and Ghost are also placed in this role, but it's worth noting. Roose clearly has Other symbolism, and he's a LH type?

Just noticed a monstrous cod was part of the meal brought by Manderly. Dagon Codd is an Ironborn fellow, and Dagon is of course a Sumerian fish-man deity. Monstrous, surely. More clues about the Ironborn as fish people. 

[LmL]

9 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Robert's warhammer is spiked as well: 

And:

Usullied have spikes on theirs helmets - 1 for soldiers and 3 for officers.

 

Idk what's the deal with spikes and and number 3 and 9 - number of big dragon meteors?

Vylarr grew hesitant. "His Grace has told us he wishes the traitors' heads to remain on the walls until he fills those last three empty spikes there on the end.

Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black ironspikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

Nice collection of spike quotes there Blue Tiger. I usually think of three in regards to three heads of the dragon, three main dragon meteors. Sometimes I think I am seeing it depicted as three meteors, with one breaking apart into the thousand dragon meteor shower of smaller fragments. That's what I see in the Jaime scene with Brienne you quoted - two big rocks and a shower of pebbles. That chapter has a lot of mythical astronomy... There's a nice comet splitting thing when Brienne splits off from Jaime and his cousin, impacts with the cliff and caused a cow sized rock to break off... Then she dives into the water like a sea dragon. 

9 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

"And who are you, old man? One of Lord Beric's cravens?" called the knight in the spiked helm. "If that fat fool Thoros is in there, ask him how he likes these fires."  

There are also 3 castles of House Peake - Starpike, Dunstonebury and Whitegrove (Weirwood grove?)

I've mentioned the three black castles of Starpike before, when the heads of Gorman Peake and Black Tom Heddle were mounted on spears by Bloodraven. Three black castles associated with a Starpike? Yeah, that's not even very cryptic. So one of those castles was called whitegrove? That's fascinating. Dun means sand colored, so "sandy stone berry?" Not sure what to make of that. 

9 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Shagwell dropped from the weirwood, braying laughter. He was garbed in motley, but so faded and stained that it showed more brown than grey or pink. In place of a jester's flail he had a triple morningstar, three spiked balls chained to a wooden haft. He swung it hard and low, and one of Crabb's knees exploded in a spray of blood and bone. "That's funny," Shagwell crowed as Dick fell.

 

Btw, I noticed this while reading SoS Jaime's first chapter:

 

It's interesting, Brienne defeats Loras at the tourney with a Morningstar, but here fights against the one with a Morningstar (a triple Morningstar for good measure). Briennes dad is the Evenstar, so she herself is a Morningstar (I believe). She's also playing a kind of cold moon maiden (again, so I think, need more study), being a blue cow person. The whole thing is that the moon meteors have Morningstar symbolism, because the moon meteors are the child of the sun, and that's the role the Morningstar often plays in mythology. So it's moon - turned - Morningstar. I feel like there is some meaning behind her fighting with and hen against a Morningstar, but I am not sure what it is. 

I do know that there is a little story about someone named Lucifer Long right before the fight with Shagwell et al, and then we have a weirwood which gets to drink blood at the end when Brienne kills people beneath it and then buries Dick Crab beneath it as well. Lots going on in that chapter, including the whispering heads. I think all whispering in ASPIAF essentially goes back to the weirwoods and their communication. The heads speak from beyond the grave, and that's more or less the idea with weirwoods. 

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, LmL said:

It's interesting, Brienne defeats Loras at the tourney with a Morningstar, but here fights against the one with a Morningstar (a triple Morningstar for good measure). Briennes dad is the Evenstar, so she herself is a Morningstar (I believe). She's also playing a kind of cold moon maiden (again, so I think, need more study), being a blue cow person. The whole thing is that the moon meteors have Morningstar symbolism, because the moon meteors are the child of the sun, and that's the role the Morningstar often plays in mythology. So it's moon - turned - Morningstar. I feel like there is some meaning behind her fighting with and hen against a Morningstar, but I am not sure what it is.

I agree.  There is more to Brienne than meets the eye.  She is proving her worth in the manner of a true knight.  She represents the evening star to Ser Arthur's morning star; both heralding the dawn.  She has been recognized and raised up the Jaime as Lord Commander of the white cloaks.  She is unique and stands alone among men. And she is carrying Ned's sword Oathkeeper.  It seems she will keep not only Jaime's oath but also Ned's and redeem both of them.

I think Dany has also seen her in the HoU:

" A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. "  In italics, a white lion taller than a man.   Brienne taller than a man, lion heart, the Blue Maid.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Dunk.png 

 

[hiemal]

Could the Gray King and the Horned Lord be the same? Perhaps becoming Gray after being exiled from the main land, for example? I ask because of the Dagda, the Horned Lord of the Tuatha De Dannon, who possessed a magic cauldron that brought the dead back to life (what is dead can never die...) and a magic club (shades of the Drowned God's priests?). I could see that fitting the Bloodstone Emperor/Azor Ahai profile (heck, we could even throw Ice in there as a Lightbringer precursor, tempered in Nagga's flame and quenched in the wide salt sea).

Incidentally, Azor Ahai/The Smith/Hephaestus/Volcanism? I haven't seen any lame smiths, although Arya threatened Gendry with a variation of the idea at Harrenhall nor any being cuckolded by War so I'm just tossing it out there.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Could the Gray King and the Horned Lord be the same? Perhaps becoming Gray after being exiled from the main land, for example?

Yes, although I would say one of a group of horned lords. The horned lord singular is the wildling mythical figure, but I think that legend is based on an older truth, that of the Green Men / Horned Lords plural. I think those Green Men like Garth are the OG "human" greenseers - more human than cotf anyway. That's kind of where the weirwood compendium is going. I believe that Azor Ahai was one of these folk, and at least some part of the Grey King legend also. These horned lords are the link between greenseer magic and fire magic, and I believe they are the ones who made Others - again, not the children. 

Quote

I ask because of the Dagda, the Horned Lord of the Tuatha De Dannon, who possessed a magic cauldron that brought the dead back to life (what is dead can never die...) and a magic club (shades of the Drowned God's priests?). I could see that fitting the Bloodstone Emperor/Azor Ahai profile (heck, we could even throw Ice in there as a Lightbringer precursor, tempered in Nagga's flame and quenched in the wide salt sea).

Yes, we know Martin is using that line of myth already, and that's exactly how I am seeing AA, a kind of demonic horned lord. I should look into the Dagda a bit harder, a couple of people have brought him up. 

Quote

Incidentally, Azor Ahai/The Smith/Hephaestus/Volcanism? I haven't seen any lame smiths, although Arya threatened Gendry with a variation of the idea at Harrenhall nor any being cuckolded by War so I'm just tossing it out there.

Donell Noye is a one-armed smith, and Jon moves into his quarters. Jon is identified with the red wanderer known as the Thief to the Wildlings and as being sacred to the Smith according to the Faith of the Seven. Azor Ahai was a smith of a red sword, so yeah, there is some smithing going on. Volcanism is interesting because the concept of terrestrial fire is sometimes associated with the "Night Sun," such as in Mesoamerican myth. They thought of the sun journeying through the underworld at night, and this is represented by the idea of fire under the earth. Thus Akbal, the Night Sun deity, is called "the Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire and War." We also see Melisandre go down to the fires of Dragonstone and refer to them as a manifestation of R'hllor, and the Valyrians with their empire on the volcanoes and their reputation for smithing. I believe there are more specific Hephaestus references as well, but I need to review his deeds and who he marries and all that. 

They at least talk of cutting of Gendry's feet in terms of working for Vargo, but that's pretty weak. 

The smith figures in the series seem to be associated with bulls, as Gendry is, fwiw. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Going off on a bit of a tangent... While reading the essay and the posts on here I've realised that, man, there seem to be a serious number of legendary leaders with 'G' names and a Green/Grey and/or magic connection (particularly Garth or Garth derivatives).

• Galon Whitestaff
• Gendel & Gorne
• Garth Greenhand / Greenhair / The Green
• The Gardener Kings (12 Garths, 7 Garses, 6 Garlands, 5 Gwaynes, 3 Giles', 2 Gareths, Greydon)
• Garin the Great (rumoured to have become The Grey Grace or shrouded Lord which sounds a lot like the a Grey King if you ask me!)

In current book-time and recent history, the more notable 'G Men' are

• Gendry
• Gerold Dayne (Darkstar)
• Gerold Hightower (White Bull)
• Garlan Tyrell
• Garth Tyrell & sons Garse & Garrett
• Gormon Tyrell (Citadel Maester)
• Gregor Clegane
• Gerion Lannister (missing on quest to Valyria)
• The Goodbrothers (Gromond, Greydon, Gran, Gorold)
• 3 Garths in the nightswatch. One of the nightswatch Garths kills another nightswatch Garth at the Fist, the third is killed by the Weeper.
• Gared from the nights watch (which sounds like a derivitave of Garth or Gareth) who is killed by Ned at the start.
• Grenn from the nights watch (which just sounds like green!)
• Gerrick Kingsblood (Wildling who Selyse Baratheon proclaims the new king beyond the wall).

Also a recurring theme of brothers/inheritance/succession/usurpers, which is bound to be AA / BSE related.

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Going off on a bit of a tangent... While reading the essay and the posts on here I've realised that, man, there seem to be a serious number of legendary leaders with 'G' names and a Green/Grey and/or magic connection (particularly Garth or Garth derivatives).

• Galon Whitestaff
• Gendel & Gorne
• Garth Greenhand / Greenhair / The Green
• The Gardener Kings (12 Garths, 7 Garses, 6 Garlands, 5 Gwaynes, 3 Giles', 2 Gareths, Greydon)
• Garin the Great (rumoured to have become The Grey Grace or shrouded Lord which sounds a lot like the a Grey King if you ask me!)

In current book-time and recent history, the more notable 'G Men' are

• Gendry
• Gerold Dayne (Darkstar)
• Gerold Hightower (White Bull)
• Garlan Tyrell
• Garth Tyrell & sons Garse & Garrett
• Gormon Tyrell (Citadel Maester)
• Gregor Clegane
• Gerion Lannister (missing on quest to Valyria)
• The Goodbrothers (Gromond, Greydon, Gran, Gorold)
• 3 Garths in the nightswatch. One of the nightswatch Garths kills another nightswatch Garth at the Fist, the third is killed by the Weeper.
• Gared from the nights watch (which sounds like a derivitave of Garth or Gareth) who is killed by Ned at the start.
• Grenn from the nights watch (which just sounds like green!)
• Gerrick Kingsblood (Wildling who Selyse Baratheon proclaims the new king beyond the wall).

Also a recurring theme of brothers/inheritance/succession/usurpers, which is bound to be AA / BSE related.

 

 

You forgot George

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

51 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You forgot George

Eek!! I hope I don't get banned! . Sorry George! 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Back on topic... The scenes you quoted where a dragon gets in between another dragon and the sun before attacking reminded me of Arya getting in between Joffrey and Mycah.  

I'm sure you must have quoted this one before as it's teeming with moon/meteor symbolism. Joffrey seems to revert between sun and moon symbolism throughout depending on whether he's on the attack or defence.  The scene includes 4 bodies (sun, 2 moons & meteor), a bleeding face (Mycah's) a loud crack as Arya strikes Joff's head with her stick-sword-meteor, which then breaks in 2, Joff's bleeding head, fiery eyes and mouth streaming 'filth', the 'blood bay' (blood tide?) horse being struck with a rock.  We then have a grey blur (Nymeria) flying through the air in attack in response to Sun Joff's attack on moon Arya, a damaged arm (Joffrey's), and a sword being plunged into water.  Phew! There's more of course, but it would be a mini-essay to detail it all!

 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Back on topic... The scenes you quoted where a dragon gets in between another dragon and the sun before attacking reminded me of Arya getting in between Joffrey and Mycah.  

I'm sure you must have quoted this one before as it's teeming with moon/meteor symbolism. Joffrey seems to revert between sun and moon symbolism throughout depending on whether he's on the attack or defence.  The scene includes 4 bodies (sun, 2 moons & meteor), a bleeding face (Mycah's) a loud crack as Arya strikes Joff's head with her stick-sword-meteor, which then breaks in 2, Joff's bleeding head, fiery eyes and mouth streaming 'filth', the 'blood bay' (blood tide?) horse being struck with a rock.  We then have a grey blur (Nymeria) flying through the air in attack in response to Sun Joff's attack on moon Arya, a damaged arm (Joffrey's), and a sword being plunged into water.  Phew! There's more of course, but it would be a mini-essay to detail it all!

 

That's a great scene indeed, although the double meaning of "bay" has somehow never occurred to me. Blood bay, duh! Nice one. The main thing I remember from that one is the throwing of Lion's Tooth into the river - I mentioned that while talking about Joff a couple of essays ago. I'm not sure Joff is ever a moon figure though is he? One thing to remember is that it's not just the sun killing the moon - the moon kills the sun right back because it's explosion and the impact of its meteors is what blocks out the sun. That's what happens when Joff is poisoned by Sansa'a hairnet. Those are purple amethyst moon snakes darkening the sun's face. 

I'll have to go back and read that one again, it's been a minute since I have. You see my constant dilemma though - what to do next? There is so much mythical astronomy in the books. Sometimes I like to try to focus on a chapter by itself, but usually I end up pulling from multiple chapters containing the same symbols. Tangled web and all that. That's why it's especially nice to have fine folks such as yourself looking out for these things in the books as you go. There's way too much for one person to find it all. 

Sometimes the mythical astronomy in AGOT is a bit more vague than elsewhere - I think he expanded on the astronomy ideas a lot in book 2. AGOT has lots of it but the metaphors correlate less strictly, almost as if he got better at thinking of different ways to hide the pattern as he went along. But you spotted the broken sword and the arm wound, those are big, bloody mouth, check, and of course sword in the water. I didn't notice Arya coming in between as an eclipse, that's interesting because these tales often have that protector role present. 

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Going off on a bit of a tangent... While reading the essay and the posts on here I've realised that, man, there seem to be a serious number of legendary leaders with 'G' names and a Green/Grey and/or magic connection (particularly Garth or Garth derivatives).

• Galon Whitestaff
• Gendel & Gorne
• Garth Greenhand / Greenhair / The Green
• The Gardener Kings (12 Garths, 7 Garses, 6 Garlands, 5 Gwaynes, 3 Giles', 2 Gareths, Greydon)
• Garin the Great (rumoured to have become The Grey Grace or shrouded Lord which sounds a lot like the a Grey King if you ask me!)

In current book-time and recent history, the more notable 'G Men' are

• Gendry
• Gerold Dayne (Darkstar)
• Gerold Hightower (White Bull)
• Garlan Tyrell
• Garth Tyrell & sons Garse & Garrett
• Gormon Tyrell (Citadel Maester)
• Gregor Clegane
• Gerion Lannister (missing on quest to Valyria)
• The Goodbrothers (Gromond, Greydon, Gran, Gorold)
• 3 Garths in the nightswatch. One of the nightswatch Garths kills another nightswatch Garth at the Fist, the third is killed by the Weeper.
• Gared from the nights watch (which sounds like a derivitave of Garth or Gareth) who is killed by Ned at the start.
• Grenn from the nights watch (which just sounds like green!)
• Gerrick Kingsblood (Wildling who Selyse Baratheon proclaims the new king beyond the wall).

Also a recurring theme of brothers/inheritance/succession/usurpers, which is bound to be AA / BSE related.

 

 

Yes, the brothers themes are the ones I am trying to sniff out, particularly the brothers Baratheon and the potential correlation to the three Garths on the Wall. No way that's a coincidence. 

What I have noticed is there are a lot of NW brothers with names or symbolism which implies "Green Men." I mean shit one of them is named Tom Barleycorn, and Jon Barleycorn is a version of the Horned God mythological archetype from the real world. All the Garth's, people with wooden teeth, lots of people from the Reach, etc. I think there's a link.

Consider this: the first NW, and indeed all NW until the Andals came, said their vows to a heart tree. Think about that, what it implies. The NW were promising to the greenseers that they would man the wall. That's who they are swearing to: the greenseer godhood. This implies the greenseers set up the NW, probably helped build the Wall. 

My theory, as I have said before, is that Coldhands is an undead greenseer / skinchanger and that the Last Hero and his group were as well. The origin of the NW, then, would be greenseers who became zombies to man the wall and fight others, perhaps willingly. I think that's what the link between Beric the undead fiery scarecrow lord and the burning scarecrow NW brothers in Jon's AA dream are all about - fiery undead crows, fighting with one of the AA figures from the past. 

[Pain killer Jane]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, the brothers themes are the ones I am trying to sniff out, particularly the brothers Baratheon and the potential correlation to the three Garths on the Wall. No way that's a coincidence. 

And the twin thing that is rampant. 

[hiemal]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

I think those Green Men like Garth are the OG "human" greenseers - more human than cotf anyway. That's kind of where the weirwood compendium is going.

 

The smith figures in the series seem to be associated with bulls, as Gendry is, fwiw. 

I look forward to more on the subject. You are steps ahead of me on this one.

Without a doubt- we've discussed the symbolism of Mithras, the Taurumbolis, the sacred animals, and the initiation rite of the Raven and the Moon a few times, iirc. The clarity of those representations is why I've mostly ignored the AA/Vulcan leap but it had to be brought up at some point.

[Pain killer Jane]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

Jon is identified with the red wanderer known as the Thief to the Wildlings and as being sacred to the Smith according to the Faith of the Seven. Azor Ahai was a smith of a red sword, so yeah, there is some smithing going on.

This is going to sound completely insane but as Martin has many references to children's games, I want to point out the game Red Rover. 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:08 AM, LynnS said:

" A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. "  In italics, a white lion taller than a man.   Brienne taller than a man, lion heart, the Blue Maid.

There is the instance of Drogo killing a white lion and promising to make a cloak for Dany. But I think the grass is the one taller than a man in this sentence. I love the ambiguity of the English Language. 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

There is the instance of Drogo killing a white lion and promising to make a cloak for Dany. But I think the grass is the one taller than a man in this sentence. I love the ambiguity of the English Language. 

Yes I recall the white lion skin he gives her.  Of course, Jaime could be considered a white lion, like Hightower, the white bull.  Brienne is basically Jaime's proxy at this point.  The quote itself is ambiguous but specific word are italicized.  A white lion, taller than a man....

[LmL]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes I recall the white lion skin he gives her.  Of course, Jaime could be considered a white lion, like Hightower, the white bull.  Brienne is basically Jaime's proxy at this point.  The quote itself is ambiguous but specific word are italicized.  A white lion, taller than a man....

I don't think this is Brienne because she is nowhere called lion-hearted that I can recall, nor any other lion symbol. She is also not associated with white.

Ive always figured that was Tyrion - he's a white lion because he has partially white hair and is foreshadowed to ride Viserion possibly. It's easier for grass to be taller than a man if that man is a half-man.