The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Guest Other-in-law]

I mean, after the Trident you had the sack of Kingslanding, then the arrival of Robert and his coronation.

I don't think we've gotten any indication of a custom of big, ceremonial coronations in the series, and we've pretty much had POVs present for the accession of Joffrey and Tommen. Certainly nothing along the lines of Joff's wedding. And in Robert's case, it doesn't seem likely that Ned would have hung around for something like that when the Storm's End was still besieged by the enemy and his sister was in enemy hands. We've been told that Ned and Robert quarreled about Tywin's display of Elia's children and he left in a huff, and they didn't patch up their differences until Ned brought Lyanna's body back.

Not that it makes a big difference to the issue; it would have probably been several weeks between the Trident and the ToJ simply on the basis of the distances traveled.

Perhaps because he had a happy life afterwards but it doesn't seem like Lord Eddard Stark dwelled much on the past.

He thought about Lyanna quite a bit.

[jack-be-lucky]

Mezeh, I'd love to see Lord Connington alive and answering questions, but I think snake's right on this one. Unless there is something more to go on, one should expect that Jon Connington is dead, just as Jaime remembers (AFfC 408.)

And if R+l=J, Rhaegar would be very likely to name his son after his late best friend.

[The Wolf Maid]

And if R+l=J, Rhaegar would be very likely to name his son after his late best friend.

Interesting thought. Haven't considered Jon could be named after Jon Connington, not Jon Arryn.

[SFDanny]

And if R+l=J, Rhaegar would be very likely to name his son after his late best friend.

I agree with The Wolf Maid, it's an interesting thought. One small correction maybe in order though. Jon Carrington was certainly one of Rhaegar's best friends, but Rhaegar's death probably predates his rumored demise from drink.

[snake]

Well, it's a leap to draw the conclusion you do from "then and now" when the phrase makes perfect sense in the context of a response to Ned's question to mean simply they did not flee with Viserys when Ser Willem took him to Dragonstone and they will not flee as they stand there before Ned and his men. Only by taking the phrase out of context and adding other assumptions (they have agreed to abandon Aerys to his fate - which, btw, in the context of events also means they abandoned Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia) to get to your conclusion. I'm all for close readings, snake, but this one looks to be reading a mirage.

I do make certain assumptions to arrive at what I think has happened in the past because I have no ironclad evidence to prove my points. However, I don't think I'm alone in this, although many people take certain theories as a given even though they are also assuming a lot.

I'll have to do some further research to see if I can nail down a better timeframe from the sack of King's Landing to Ned's arrival at the Tower of Joy, but I think you are stretching it quite a bit. Ned doesn't have time to wander around a lot. He certainly doesn't have time to father a child that turns out to be Jon, while traveling around after the lifting of the siege at Storm's End - no matter the assumptions made about him.

It might well have been a mistake not to travel from the Tower of Joy after they receive the news of Rhaegar's death, but that doesn't mean they have reason to believe their location is widely known. Remember this location was secret to even Aerys' searches. Somehow Ned finds out - a subject of many earlier posts - but the leaking of information only tells us that the plan didn't work, not that it wasn't the best option available. I still think Lyanna's health is the major factor here, and the only way we are going to find out is when Wylla tells her story.

Well, most people in Westeros, including his wife, felt he had ample time to father a bastard while away fighting in the south so I'll go with them on this one.

And the location was known to few at first but I would think that after Rhaegar was found word got around as to where he was. And once they were found the frst time it would take no genius to realize that they were gonna be found again and most likely not by friends. So it was very foolish of them to risk everything on the hope that they would be left undiscovered. Perhaps they weren't very bright.

If the last is true, then how do we explain his bitterness towards the Lannisters from the start. I don't see a willingness on Ned's part to forget the events at King's Landing and what the Lannisters did some fourteen years earlier. None of which targeted him or his family. Why is he so forgiving of past events that involve the kidnap, rape, and in essence - murder of his beloved sister? As for not dwelling on the past, how can one square that with Ned's thoughts about the price he has had to pay to keep his secrets? I think he lives with the past everyday.

The Lannisters are alive and kicking so they are a constant reminder of the treachery and cruelty that took place back then. Aerys and Rhaegar, however, are long dead and I think time allowed Ned to deal with what they did and to put it aside.

And Ned might have thought about Lyanna a lot but he didn't think about Rhaegar much. IIRC, when he wonders if Rhaegar visited brothels it is written that it's the first time in years that he has thought about the Targaryen prince. So it would seem Rhaegar doesn't haunt his memories or his dreams and if Lyanna does, then the two are not as intertwined in Ned's thoughts as many would like to think.

[Piper]

And if R+l=J, Rhaegar would be very likely to name his son after his late best friend.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but:

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

Granted, he said 'most likely' but it would make sense for Ned to name his two sons after Jon Arryn and Robert Barratheon. Besides, wasn't Rhaegar's best fried Ser Arthur Dayne, not Jon Connington?

[The Wolf Maid]

Thanks for clearing that up. Was Robb named by Ned? I thought it would be Catelyn who did. Is there a difference between a 'naming day' and the actual date of birth?

[Sarella]

It certainly sounds as though Ned named Robb. Catelyn probably would have chosen Hoster or Brandon.

[The Wolf Maid]

But Ned was at war when Robb was born. Hence my earlier question: Is there a difference between the actual birth day and the 'name day'? Do they give a child a name after its birth, or do they wait? If Ned had named Robb, Catelyn would have waited a while before she could name their child (unless Ned sent a message to her what the baby's name should be)

[SFDanny]

But Ned was at war when Robb was born. Hence my earlier question: Is there a difference between the actual birth day and the 'name day'? Do they give a child a name after its birth, or do they wait? If Ned had named Robb, Catelyn would have waited a while before she could name their child (unless Ned a message to her what the baby's name should be)

The only thing I can think of that speaks to the subject is this from the first Samwell chapter in A Feast for Crows when Gilly tells Jon Snow:

Don't you name him. Don't you do that till he's past two years. It's ill luck to name them when they're still on the breast. You crows may not know that, but it's true.

Clearly for some of the wildlings there is a difference between a name day and a birthday. The implication of the quote is that it is different among the cultures that send men to the wall. I don't think you can take a hard and fast rule from the quote, however.

[Mezeh]

I really doubt that Jon was named after Jon Connington. The reasons are:

GRM stated that Jon was named by his father. Ned was at least his step father so he qualifies.

By GRRM again Jon is eight of nine month older then Dany. This means that he was born after Rhaegar already died.

Rhaegar named two of his children after Aegon the first and his sister. He expected one more child so if this would be a girl he would name her after Aegon second sister. A son? We don’t know but with one exception Targaryens had their family names. Egg named his son after his friend but he most probably had some very exceptional reasons to do that. Most probably Dunk saved his life on some point or something like that.

Jon Connington was exiled shortly before the Trident. He didn’t have time to drunk himself to death and no reason by the time as well as Rhaegar would doubtless call his friend from exile.

And besides while Connington was called a dear friend of Rhaegar Arthur Dayne was the closest friend of the prince and not him.

[Sarella]

But Ned was at war when Robb was born. Hence my earlier question: Is there a difference between the actual birth day and the 'name day'? Do they give a child a name after its birth, or do they wait? If Ned had named Robb, Catelyn would have waited a while before she could name their child (unless Ned sent a message to her what the baby's name should be)

I think that children are named on a different day to their birth, seeing as they seem to celebrate their nameday (i.e. Joffrey's nameday tournament) rather than their birthday. But then again, could be just GRRM trying to be different and calling birthday nameday instead.

So I think Cat waited until Ned returned to name the child. Else she took an educated guess about what he'd like it to be called... but that would be a bit of a risk. What if Ned didn't like the shortened version?

I know I would wait for my SO to return before I named our child. I suspect he'd want to call it George, but I wouldn't risk naming it Georgio. Or Geor, for that matter. Hehehe, sorry for getting off topic!

We know that the Westerosi folk don't wait two years to name the child, else baby Tyrion Stokeworth wouldn't have been named yet.

[Mezeh]

Thanks for clearing that up. Was Robb named by Ned? I thought it would be Catelyn who did. Is there a difference between a 'naming day' and the actual date of birth?

Ned certainly was at the war by the time of Robb’s birth but he doubtless would be informed by bird that he had a son. So he could have sent his withes about his heir name as well.

[The Wolf Maid]

Ned certainly was at the war by the time of Robb’s birth but he doubtless would be informed by bird that he had a son. So he could have sent his withes about his heir name as well.

That was what I thought as well.

There's a theory that Jon already has a name, but Ned changed it to Jon. If Jon had a Targ name, wonder what it would have been? Rhaegon? Viserion?

[Jon Targaryen]

There's a theory that Jon already has a name, but Ned changed it to Jon. If Jon had a Targ name, wonder what it would have been? Rhaegon? Viserion?

Visenyan? I think Rhaegar was expecting a girl.

[The Wolf Maid]

For the 'three heads of the dragon'? Possibly. It would make sense the most, if he's trying to complete the 'set'.

[SFDanny]

The following and my response comes from this thread.

According to Citadel Martin exact words were that the third head is not necessary to be a Targaryen. Unless GRRM played with words this implies that the other two should be both Targaryens.

I just do not rule out that Martin maybe messing with us on this.

About Varys and Illirio. We know nothing about their true motivation yet they doubtless work together and it seems that their goal is indeed Targaryen restoration. Particularly if you will read spoiler chapters from ADWD. This however raises a question who they intend to sit on Iron Throne. Myself I see this as possible hint that Aegon is still alive.

Have you ever seen the classic Hollywood movie "Anastasia"? I get the feeling Varys and Illyrio may well be involved in a similar type scam instead of any real Targaryen restoration. The whole "Mummer's Dragon" thing makes me think this is much more likely than them having any real knowledge of a hidden Targaryen. My take is Varys and the kindly merchant Mopatis may well be in this for themselves, and any real claims to the throne be damned.

Barristan stated that he never was close to Rhaegar however he obviously kept his eyes and ears open and noticed quite a lot. So even if he doesn’t know something for sure he may guess more then he knows.

I'm sure we will find out more from Ser Barristan, but I think it is likely we are going to find out more from a lot of sources. I'd note that we already had a run in with the young heir to Starfall who let us in on some important information. I wouldn't be surprised to have more encounters such as these, both false and real, that give us hints along the way. The idea we will have the mystery divulged by one person in one chapter seems like the most unlikely scenario to me.

About septon. If the marriage took place it was polygamy marriage. I doubt that any septon would approve it and Lyanna followed Old gods anyway. So saying oath in the godswood seems more likely to me. This also allows keeping the secret better since this implies only involvement of some trusted friends as a witness. Connington is definitely the best bet here. He was already mentioned in the tale of Harenhall tourney and he almost for sure would know some of Rhaegar’s secrets. After all other friends of Rhaegar are all surely dead.

And I tend to agree about the maester part.

My assumption is that, because the Targaryens accepted the Seven before the invasion, that their previous polygamous marriages were sanctioned by the faith. Am I wrong in this? Whichever way the marriage took place, the important part for unraveling the mystery is that some witness had to have been there. If so, are they alive and will we meet them in the story. I agree, Connington seems to be the best bet.

On another note, thinking of young Ned Dayne, does anyone else find it odd that the heir to Starfall would be named after the man who killed The Sword of the Morning, and caused Lady Ashara to take her own life in grief? I've got to think that was one hell of a trip through Dorne to get that kind of response. Obviously there is much more going on here than we are led to believe (Aegon the Darkstar? R+L=J+?)

[HarryStark]

The following and my response comes from this thread.

<...>

I'm sure we will find out more from Ser Barristan, but I think it is likely we are going to find out more from a lot of sources. I'd note that we already had a run in with the young heir to Starfall who let us in on some important information. I wouldn't be surprised to have more encounters such as these, both false and real, that give us hints along the way. The idea we will have the mystery divulged by one person in one chapter seems like the most unlikely scenario to me.

Sorry for distracting from the main point of the post, but I'm still finding my way around... Just thought I'd mention: the bizzarre thing is, this character, who (it seems) is really really important, is riding around the countryside with the BwB - who [other than Brienne] would conceivably be able to help us solve these mysteries? Sansa? Or will Jaime be captured by UnCat? I suppose that'll be a way for GRRM to get rid of some excess PoVs!

My assumption is that, because the Targaryens accepted the Seven before the invasion, that their previous polygamous marriages were sanctioned by the faith. Am I wrong in this? Whichever way the marriage took place, the important part for unraveling the mystery is that some witness had to have been there. If so, are they alive and will we meet them in the story. I agree, Connington seems to be the best bet.

(see also this post by Jacob Lightbringer about the wedding):

Perhaps, unknown to others, Rhaegar, following his father's orders, discovered and unmasked the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhall after a fierce struggle. The godswood might have been excellent setting for such an event -- had it happened. But for reasons of his own, Rhaegar must have kept the secret of the knight's identity to himself. Certain words, spoken in the heat of the moment before that tree would be binding in the eyes of the gods.

SF Danny's post is, I think, pretty good for disproving that it's at all likely Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage would've been valid. There was no septon present, so the marriage might've been valid in Lyanna's eyes, but not (I'd argue, agreeing with what SFDanny seems to say) those of the Iron Throne or the Faith. It's the latter that matter!

On another note, thinking of young Ned Dayne, does anyone else find it odd that the heir to Starfall would be named after the man who killed The Sword of the Morning, and caused Lady Ashara to take her own life in grief? I've got to think that was one hell of a trip through Dorne to get that kind of response. Obviously there is much more going on here than we are led to believe (Aegon the Darkstar? R+L=J+?)

Well, he's actually Edrick rather than Eddard, but yeah, I found it pretty strange that he went by the name "Ned"...

While I must confess to being a convert to the "Aegon the Darkstar" theory, I think anything involving "J+" is going to be rather more difficult to believe!

[Sarella]

I must say, SFDanny, that this new revelation about Jon Connington has made the Rhaegar and Lyanna marriage more likely.

When reading the story of The Knight of the Laughing Tree, and working out who everybody was (i.e. the "red snake" is Oberyn, the "white sword" is Arthur Dayne etc), I was stumped for some time on "the lord of griffins". I figured he must be reasonably important to be mentioned there at that important time (the tourney at harrenhal) and amongst all of the other important characters.

Right now I can't see any reason for his importance other than as a witness to the marriage!

So I'd say I'm now 50/50 on the L+R=married issue.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Right now I can't see any reason for his importance other than as a witness to the marriage!

So I'd say I'm now 50/50 on the L+R=married issue.

I'm glad that the R+L marriage theory is making headway, though I have to admit that if Jon Connington was a witness it would require a very early marriage....basically during the Tourney or immediately afterwards. I had leaned toward a later return to Harrenhal (after the "abduction") for such a marriage, and it seems less likely that Connington would have been around for that, since Aerys made him Hand while Rhaegar was absent.

Still, a secret marriage during the tourney works fine, too. GRRM has said that if he were to do a story covering the Harrenhal tourney that it would shed light on a great deal. And it would change the meaning of the crown of blue roses slightly, from a flirtation/pickup move to an honour for the prince's newest bride.