In the Shadow of the Status Quo--Fantasy literature and conservativism

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Tracker,

Was privilege being questioned, as it is today, when Tolkien was writing The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings?  Or was there an entirely different understanding around the concept of privilege during the period surrounding the writing of those works?

I can't speak for other countries, but I think that privilege was far more vigorously questioned in the UK when Tolkien was writing than it is today.  We had an active Communist Party, with hundreds of local councillors, and an avowedly socialist party won the 1945 election.  Whatever lip-service today's politicians pay to egalitarianism, in reality, there's never been a better time to be born into a wealthy family;  social mobility was greater when LOTR was written than it is in 2016.. 

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Probably, but they'd also never quibble at lumping upper-middle Baggins in with upper-class Took under the all-purpose label 'posh cunts'.

People in the UK don't like chinless wonders, but there is surprisingly little hostility towards wealthy people generally.

[SeanF]

Victorians and Edwardians had the concept of "the gentleman" which included the aristocracy and landed gentry, but extended beyond them to include rich bourgeois, people in the older professions, army officers (those who had been directly commissioned at any rate) and so on.  Gallons of ink were spent on trying to define exactly who was, and who was not a gentleman (eg Mr. Salteena who "was not quite a gentleman, although you would hardly know it") but Bilbo and Frodo, people who could afford not to work for a living, and devoted their lives to scholarship, would certainly have counted as gentlemen.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Come to think of it, two aspects of classism that don't appear in The Shire are education and religion. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of formal schooling (hobbits learn cooking before reading and writing), let alone the sort of class markers that typify the British education system: no Eton or Harrow, let alone Oxbridge. As for religion, while Catholics could vote as of the 1820s and attend university as of 1850s, religion was still tied into politics by the Irish Question (the Conservative Party officially being the Conservative and Unionist Party). Tolkien was scarred for life by the social shunning of his mother when she converted to Catholicism.

Mind you, writing about either education or religion in a fantasy novel might have been a bit close to home for a Catholic Oxford Don.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Come to think of it, two aspects of classism that don't appear in The Shire are education and religion. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of formal schooling (hobbits learn cooking before reading and writing), let alone the sort of class markers that typify the British education system: no Eton or Harrow, let alone Oxbridge. As for religion, while Catholics could vote as of the 1820s and attend university as of 1850s, religion was still tied into politics by the Irish Question (the Conservative Party officially being the Conservative and Unionist Party). Tolkien was scarred for life by the social shunning of his mother when she converted to Catholicism.

Mind you, writing about either education or religion in a fantasy novel might have been a bit close to home for a Catholic Oxford Don.

All education seems to be done within the family in the Shire.  One would expect any Took or Brandybuck or Baggins to be literate, but people from Sam's background are generally not.  Before the events in the Hobbit, Bilbo must have largely taught himself about Elvish languages and history.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Bilbo taught Sam to read and write.  Even some Elvish.  What does that say about "privilege" in LOTR?

[The Marquis de Leech]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Bilbo taught Sam to read and write.  Even some Elvish.  What does that say about "privilege" in LOTR?

Bilbo was also very generous to poorer hobbits in his Will (the Gaffer gets two sacks of potatoes, a new spade, a woollen waistcoat, and some joint ointment). Compare that with Lobelia Sackville-Baggins being terrified about the Gamgees using their spare key to raid Bag End.

(Actually, speaking of the Will, Hugo Bracegirdle borrows books but never returns them, Milo Burrows never answers letters, and Dora Baggins writes endless letters of advice. From that we can guess the status of the Bracegirdles - Lobelia being born one herself - and the Burrowses). 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Bilbo was also very generous to poorer hobbits in his Will (the Gaffer gets two sacks of potatoes, a new spade, a woollen waistcoat, and some joint ointment). Compare that with Lobelia Sackville-Baggins being terrified about the Gamgees using their spare key to raid Bag End.

(Actually, speaking of the Will, Hugo Bracegirdle borrows books but never returns them, Milo Burrows never answers letters, and Dora Baggins writes endless letters of advice. From that we can guess the status of the Bracegirdles - Lobelia being born one herself - and the Burrowses). 

Yeah, Bilbo's will was quite a slap to many of his relatives.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yeah, Bilbo's will was quite a slap to many of his relatives.

One has to feel for the Sackville-Bagginses, who'd been waiting to inherit Bag End for sixty years.

It just goes to show, you must never take for granted the people you hope to inherit from.

[sologdin]

what means of production in the shire and how held by whom?

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, sologdin said:

what means of production in the shire and how held by whom?

Probably a mix of estates, held by people like the Tooks, and let out to tenants, and freeholds, owned by people like Farmer Maggott (though Maggott may be the tenant of a big farm rather than a freeholder).

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Bilbo taught Sam to read and write.  Even some Elvish.  What does that say about "privilege" in LOTR?

Privilege is about having advantages which other people don't and being able to exploit them. It's not an inherently dirty word. In Middle Earth, humans have the privilege of being twice as large as your typical Hobbit with a much larger military force. Elves have immortality privilege.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Privilege is used as a "dirty word" today.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The (Old) Mill was owned and operated by the Sandymans, father and son, prior to Lotho buying and destroying it. (Despite personal dislike, Sandyman Senior hangs out with the Gaffer, and Ted hangs out with Sam, so the Mill probably didn't generate massive wealth).

A Mr Boffin employs Sam's cousin Hal. As what, we don't know (cue fanfiction ideas...). 

The Hornblowers have their tobacco plantations in the Southfarthing. Given that they have their own logo and everything, with generations to get rich from the stuff, I'd guess they are freeholders.

[sologdin]

41 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

(cue fanfiction ideas...). 

my pet fan fiction idea is that maglor survived the destruction of beleriand and shows up in the WotR somehow.

 

as to ownership interests, what about all the shire's forests and whatnot?  or is that bombadil's in allodium?

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 minute ago, sologdin said:

my pet fan fiction idea is that maglor survived the destruction of beleriand and shows up in the WotR somehow.

One of my favourite bits of Tolkien fanfiction is a story where Maglor is still around to fight in the First World War. Our Feanorian Elf meets young J.R.R. Tolkien in the trenches, and tells him the stories of The Silmarillion.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, sologdin said:

 

as to ownership interests, what about all the shire's forests and whatnot?  or is that bombadil's in allodium?

The Tooks and Brandybucks flay people who hunt in their forests without permission.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Knowing Tolkien, it's probably the forests themselves doing the flaying.

[C.T. Phipps]

53 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Privilege is used as a "dirty word" today.

Eh, the big issue is that people also deny it exists. You can't have a talk about inequalities if people refuse to admit they exist.

Which I say as a well-off white straight American dude.

[sologdin]

24 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

One of my favourite bits of Tolkien fanfiction is a story where Maglor is still around to fight in the First World War. Our Feanorian Elf meets young J.R.R. Tolkien in the trenches, and tells him the stories of The Silmarillion.

fuck me, but pwn and ninja are blatant forms of meiosis when comparing my feeble idea to that.

 

legitimately flaying trespassers likely implies title, surely.