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Scott de Montevideo!

Reforming police, the Blue Wall of Silence

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1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

While not going into an in-depth analysis, these stories I've heard over a last couple of years lead me to believe that US police basically has a license to murder anyone they wish with complete impunity. Being unarmed, complying with police instructions or even being a kid are not guarantees you'll survive the encounter with trigger-happy officers. Afterwards, they'll use some ridiculous justifications, usually in lines of "following the procedure", "we maybe thought (s)he was armed" or "resisting the arrest" and walk away scot-free, most of the times not even losing their job, rarely going to trial and even more rarely actually getting convicted on said trial.

We scoff at the historical times, where one class (usually nobles) could freely humiliate or sometimes even kill ordinary folk with impunity, but I don't see how situation nowdays is any better.

Exactly.

Our Society has created an entire class of people who can kill with impunity and face little or no likelihood of criminal culpability for having taken someone’s life.  The deck is stacked in favor of the officers even in the most egregious incidents.

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-14/california-man-charged-in-kansas-for-fatal-hoax-call/9327198

Quote

A California man accused of making a hoax emergency call that led to the fatal police shooting of an unarmed man in Kansas has been charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Key points:

Involuntary manslaughter carries a sentence of 31 to 136 months

Barriss was convicted in 2016 on two counts of making a false bomb report to a TV station

Andrew Finch was shot on his doorstep by police who were called to his house

Tyler Barriss made his first court appearance in Kansas via video link from jail on Friday following his extradition from Los Angeles.

The 25-year-old is also charged with giving false alarm and interference with a law enforcement officer.

Bond was set at $500,000.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the person who actually pulled the trigger will suffer any consequences beyond paid admin leave.  And of course no word yet that training will be improved so that cops don't murder citizens.  

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-14/california-man-charged-in-kansas-for-fatal-hoax-call/9327198

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the person who actually pulled the trigger will suffer any consequences beyond paid admin leave.  And of course no word yet that training will be improved so that cops don't murder citizens.  

That's because it seems those in power believe Police never make mistakes and all deaths at the hands of police are justified by the officers "fear".  

You are absolutely right that training and procedures need to change and they need to change yesterday.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-14/california-man-charged-in-kansas-for-fatal-hoax-call/9327198

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the person who actually pulled the trigger will suffer any consequences beyond paid admin leave.  And of course no word yet that training will be improved so that cops don't murder citizens.  

I'm left wondering why the dispatch didn't notice the foreign area code and investigate that more and relay to the cops that it might be a hoax. Details like that that are lost in communication can save lives. Take the Tamir Rice murder, and yes, that was murder, IDC what the courts said. The person who called in to report seeing a kid with a gun also said that they thought it was a toy, but they couldn't be sure. That was never relayed to the cops that went to investigate the situation, and if it was, maybe they wouldn't have committed a drive by shooting on a kid who wasn't old enough to buy a ticket to a PG-13 movie. 

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That's because it seems those in power believe Police never make mistakes and all deaths at the hands of police are justified by the officers "fear".  

You are absolutely right that training and procedures need to change and they need to change yesterday.

Part of the problem is self-fulfilling. A career as a LEO naturally appeals to individuals with authoritarian world views. Not like Trump's, mind you, but it creates a situation where the authority is unwilling to have their authority questioned, and the people that most strongly support the police also share these views.

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm left wondering why the dispatch didn't notice the foreign area code and investigate that more and relay to the cops that it might be a hoax. Details like that that are lost in communication can save lives. Take the Tamir Rice murder, and yes, that was murder, IDC what the courts said. The person who called in to report seeing a kid with a gun also said that they thought it was a toy, but they couldn't be sure. That was never relayed to the cops that went to investigate the situation, and if it was, maybe they wouldn't have committed a drive by shooting on a kid who wasn't old enough to buy a ticket to a PG-13 movie. 

Part of the problem is self-fulfilling. A career as a LEO naturally appeals to individuals with authoritarian world views. Not like Trump's, mind you, but it creates a situation where the authority is unwilling to have their authority questioned, and the people that most strongly support the police also share these views.

Indeed.  We need to try to prevent people from becoming police for the sake of the power trip.

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https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/sheriff-one-person-shot-in-columbus-courtroom

deputy fatally shoots a teen inside a courtroom. despite the fact that anyone entering a court room like this is subjected to pretty rigorous  security checks and could not have had any kind of weapon on them, yet here we are with another young man, in need of help struck down by another shitty coward 

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9 hours ago, dr. thicc president said:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/sheriff-one-person-shot-in-columbus-courtroom

deputy fatally shoots a teen inside a courtroom. despite the fact that anyone entering a court room like this is subjected to pretty rigorous  security checks and could not have had any kind of weapon on them, yet here we are with another young man, in need of help struck down by another shitty coward 

There is nothing in that article to say whether the use of force was justified or not. If he was being attacked by multiple members of the family and genuinely feared for his life then in this case the use of the weapon may have been reasonable.  

In addition only one shot was fired, this isn't same as the overkill you often see when US police go gun crazy. 

Also the fact that you shouldn't be able to get weapons into a court is not the same as you can't. People get bombs on planes. 

 

Edited by BigFatCoward

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6 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

There is nothing in that article to say whether the use of force was justified or not. If he was being attacked by multiple members of the family and genuinely feared for his life then in this case the use of the weapon may have been reasonable.  

In addition only one shot was fired, this isn't same as the overkill you often see when US police go gun crazy. 

Also the fact that you shouldn't be able to get weapons into a court is not the same as you can't. People get bombs on planes. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

There is nothing in that article to say whether the use of force was justified or not. If he was being attacked by multiple members of the family and genuinely feared for his life then in this case the use of the weapon may have been reasonable.  

In addition only one shot was fired, this isn't same as the overkill you often see when US police go gun crazy. 

Also the fact that you shouldn't be able to get weapons into a court is not the same as you can't. People get bombs on planes. 

 

Oh no.  Nope, no, no way.  Fuck that nonsense.  That's why training should include reaching for a taser or pepper spray or a baton (and all should probably be included with the uniform).  There's no reason for an officer in a court room to go immediately for his gun.  Hell no.  I don't give a fuck if the officer is one of those idiots who tries to argue that someone could hit him and that could kill him.  You don't murder people like that.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Oh no.  Nope, no, no way.  Fuck that nonsense.  That's why training should include reaching for a taser or pepper spray or a baton (and all should probably be included with the uniform).  There's no reason for an officer in a court room to go immediately for his gun.  Hell no.  I don't give a fuck if the officer is one of those idiots who tries to argue that someone could hit him and that could kill him.  You don't murder people like that.

None of those would be of any use flat on your back being attacked by multiple assailants. 

 

3 hours ago, dr. thicc president said:

 

Totally, we should blindly accept the account of the family member of the victim

They have no reason to lie.

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Yeah, we should blindly accept a cop who murdered a child in a courtroom where they wouldn't have had a gun.  

Cops always gonna stick up for each other.  That blue wall of silence needs to be shattered.

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9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

None of those would be of any use flat on your back being attacked by multiple assailants. 

 

Totally, we should blindly accept the account of the family member of the victim

They have no reason to lie.

BFC,

That is why I couched my statement with "if it went down as described".  We need more information on this one.

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7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

BFC,

That is why I couched my statement with "if it went down as described".  We need more information on this one.

Absolutely. In most cases i dont let my proffesion blind me to the inadequacies of others. However based on current Intel i dont think there is enough information to say unequivocally this was an unjustified shooting. 

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15 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, we should blindly accept a cop who murdered a child in a courtroom where they wouldn't have had a gun.  

Cops always gonna stick up for each other.  That blue wall of silence needs to be shattered.

Read all my previous posts in this thread. I have been unfailingly critical of police actions. In this case the current information does not prove anything. But you are welcome to jump on your high horse and assume guilt with an incomplete picture of the facts. 

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2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Read all my previous posts in this thread. I have been unfailingly critical of police actions. In this case the current information does not prove anything. But you are welcome to jump on your high horse and assume guilt with an incomplete picture of the facts. 

Oh don't worry, I will.  I don't approve of murderous police.  

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"The deputy grabbed ahold of my sister, and that's when Joey freaked out. And he told the deputy, 'Get your hands off my mom, get your hands off my mom.' Joey didn't jump on his back or nothing, he just touched him on his shoulder. 'Get your hands off my mom.' Well they end up getting into a little struggle, whatever. My mom and my sister was trying to get in to calm Joey down. That's when the deputy ended up getting knocked down."

(The deputy) responded, came in there, and was violently attacked by multiple people," said FOP Vice President Keith Ferrell. "I was with this deputy. He does have injuries that are visible. I'm not a doctor. But it was very clear to me in my experience that he was attacked. And this was a fight for his life at some point. He was assaulted, and obviously at some point, he felt there was a risk for his life and everyone else in that courtroom."

I don't really see that much difference here in the stories.  The family admits that the deputy 'got knocked down'....and that there was a 'little struggle'.  He is going to say the kid tried to get his gun.  Opinions will vary.  

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

where they wouldn't have had a gun.

The point, though, is if the first account in the news article is true, then the officer is on his back on the ground defending himself from the kid and possibly family members.  If that is the case then the only gun the officer needs to be concerned about is his own.  Worst case, he doesn't have time to go reaching for anything less than deadly force, because if he gets overpowered, knocked out, or otherwise disarmed then that could be the end for him and possibly other people int he courtroom.  He's got a duty to protect his weapon.

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That is why I couched my statement with "if it went down as described".  We need more information on this one.

Indeed.  Footage would be helpful.  So far we have two reports of almost exact opposite circumstances.  Kid on the ground, or the officer.  The grandmother is going to make a hell of a compelling witness if there’s no video.  Though, nothing in her account explained why the officer was sent to the hospital for injuries.

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3 minutes ago, The Mance said:

The point, though, is if the first account in the news article is true, then the officer is on his back on the ground defending himself from the kid and possibly family members.  If that is the case then the only gun the officer needs to be concerned about is his own.  Worst case, he doesn't have time to go reaching for anything less than deadly force, because if he gets overpowered, knocked out, or otherwise disarmed then that could be the end for him and possibly other people int he courtroom.  He's got a duty to protect his weapon.

The point is that he's in a place where no one but him has a gun.  Pulling out his own gun risks it being used against him.  There's literally no question at all that a child was murdered and that police need different type of training so that they don't continue to murder people.  

I'm going to bypass the inevitable 'is murder bad' conversation that some of you seem to want to have.  

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24 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

The point is that he's in a place where no one but him has a gun.  Pulling out his own gun risks it being used against him.  There's literally no question at all that a child was murdered and that police need different type of training so that they don't continue to murder people.  

I'm going to bypass the inevitable 'is murder bad' conversation that some of you seem to want to have.  

There literally is no way that you have used literally correctly in that sentence.

How bad a beating are you expecting this person to take before they defend themselves? Broken ribs? Fractured skull? Beat to death?  

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