The Crow Calls the Raven Black, why I believe Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow explained

[Tijgy]

First, I want to applaud the OP to present a good argumentation to his theory. Sadly I do not agree with him. 1° For the reasons by other posters already presented in this thread by the other posters. 2° The text actually do refer the person in the cave as the 3EC

Some quotes: 

- "You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains."

"Is the crow at Greywater?"

"No. The crow is in the north."

"At the Wall?" Bran had always wanted to see the Wall. His bastard brother Jon was there now, a man of the Night's Watch. (note: it is interesting Bran automatically starts to think about the NW, when he hears the crow is in the north. By this there is a connection made between the 3EC and the NW.)

"Beyond the Wall". 

Bran IV, ACOK

- "We have plowed this field before," his sister said. "You want to make for the Wall, and your three-eyed crow. That's well and good, but the Wall is a very long way and Bran has no legs but Hodor. If we were mounted . . ."

Bran I, ASOS 

- "The road from Greywater to Winterfell went on forever, and we were mounted then. You want us to travel a longer road on foot, without even knowing where it ends. Beyond the Wall, you say. I haven't been there, no more than you, but I know that Beyond the Wall's a big place, Jojen. Are there many three-eyed crows, or only one? How do we find him?"

"Perhaps he will find us." (note: they are found by Coldhands who lead them to the cave. Also CH lead Sam and Gilly to the Nightfort so that Bran&Co can pass the Wall)

Bran I, ASOS 

-  "I want to fly," he told them. "Please. Take me to the crow."

Bran I, ASOS 

- He wanted to find the three-eyed crow, so he could learn to fly. Half a hundred times he said it if he said it once, until Meera started teasing by saying it along with him.

Bran II, ASOS

- Jojen, what will we do when we reach the Wall? My uncle always said how big it was. Seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that the gates are more like tunnels through the ice. How are we going to get past to find the three-eyed crow?"

- "But my father was a friend of the Night's Watch, and my uncle is First Ranger. He might know where the three-eyed crow lives.

Bran III, ASOS

"He said, aye. He said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."

Bran I, ADWD

Both CH and Jojen speak about the fact they are leading Bran to the 3EC who lives someone where in the north. The most easy solution to this question is that this person is BR. 

On 4-10-2016 at 5:02 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So just violating a promise of safe passage? I guess we don't know if the Blackfyre ate any food first, that's true... Knit picking is aloud, especially when it comes to ancient laws!

but Egg clearly thought it was a crime...

And Blood Raven seems to personify the dismissing of chivalry and classic honor in favor of pragmatism...

I just think that this isn't always a good thing, and leads to a very blurred line between right and wrong... The ends justify the means is a dangerous road to go down, morally speaking

Bloodraven is a machiavellian kind of person. For him the ends justify means. I am not really sure he does think a lot about the fact his means are moral. And the most interesting about him is that we are not really sure what his ends are. Why did he chose for Dareon? Is it solely because of hatred against Bittersteel? Or is Dareon the brother he loved? (Some readers do think this was Daemon?) Did he had a vision that said to him the line of Dareon would be important against the fight of the Others?) No idea. 

On 4-10-2016 at 5:21 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Take it or leave it information:

Pretty clearly implies the 3EC is actually BR....in the early days of writing Game and Clash he most probably didn't have all the details of Bloodraven fleshed out, hence why you didn't have clearer hints. But it looks like the 3EC as he is now is indeed BR.

I agree. I am not entirely sure how you can interpret this in another way. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You know, I don't think your idea is that far-fetched, and certainly many unanswered questions and puzzling contradictions remain.  Actually, I had the same idea myself previously, when I speculated that there are three main candidates for the three-eyed-crow: Bloodraven, Euron, and Bran himself (in that order of likelihood).  I even speculated that perhaps the three of them together form a kind of greenseer triumvirate  -- analogous to a three-headed dragon -- so the name Euron Crow's Eye might be interpreted as one of the three eyes of the Crow, or alternatively as one of Bloodraven's 1001 eyes, making Bloodraven the Crow -- and the others, Euron and Bran, his greenseer apprentices.  But if he's a crow, why call him a raven?  As I indicated, GRRM has a slight bias against crows; he views them as slightly 'blacker of heart' than ravens!  Perhaps he intends to keep us guessing as to Bloodraven's intentions.  Perhaps 'crow' vs. 'raven' corresponds to @LmL's dichotomy of 'heretic' vs. 'non-heretic' greenseers.

I loved your piece crow vs. raven. 

And in the end I actually think the existence of Euron as Crow's Eye is the biggest argument against 3EC=Bran. It is possible to argument Euron was also visited by the 3EC.

- When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

- Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

- "I mean to open your eyes." Euron drank deep from his own cup and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks." (...) "The choice is yours, brother. Live a thrall or die a king. Do you dare to fly? Unless you take the leap, you'll never know." Euron's smiling eye was bright with mockery. "Or do I ask too much of you? It is a fearsome thing to sail beyond Valyria."

The Reaver, aFfC 

You have also the fact he chosen an red eye (refers to BR) with crows as his banner.

(the theory: http://poorquentyn.tumblr.com/post/137422789698/hey-love-your-insights-in-asoiaf-so-just-wanted - he writes several times on this theory)

So if the 3EC did indeed also contacted Euron, just like he contacted at least Jojen and Bran (to introduce them both to their powers), can we really assume it is Bran? Why would Bran feel the need to go back in the past and make Euron a greenseer?

The fact Jojen and Bran were visited by the introduction to their powers gives me the idea the current greenseer is seeking other people who are sensitive to the powers of the greenseers. It is part of the intention to past information from one person to the another. And Bloodraven tried to do this with Euron, but he failed. So he had to wait until Bran to teach him and appeared as the 3EC to introduce him to his third eye. 

So for all this reasons I believe the 3EC is Bloodraven. And it would actually be interesting is Bloodraven is both a crow and a raven, the bad pupil a crow (Euron) and the better pupil a raven (Bran - whose name literally means raven in Welsh)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

If someone has more info on what the app says about the three eyed crow I'd give it a listen...

But without paying I can see it lists Jon Snow as Eddard's son... Would you call this confirmed?

I'm sure the app could be helpful for someone trying to keep things straight in their head while reading, but It's sort of pointless to try and use as evidence before the series is complete... 

No, but it is technically canon until GRRM writes the truth about Jon's parentage into the story. Most of us are aware that Jon is not Ned's son, but in-story he is still considered Ned's. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 04/10/2016 at 4:21 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Take it or leave it information:

Pretty clearly implies the 3EC is actually BR....in the early days of writing Game and Clash he most probably didn't have all the details of Bloodraven fleshed out, hence why you didn't have clearer hints. But it looks like the 3EC as he is now is indeed BR.

You know In the video clip that Lil' Scribe left on page two of this thread. When you click on it and listen to it, it does actually clear it up.

When it says GRRM was asked "whether he always knew the 3EC was Bloodraven", this clearly shows a conversation has been had between them where it has been confirmed that the 3EC is actually Bloodraven doesn't it? There is no counter to say, well you know the 3EC is actually.... or could actually be....

This clip here takes it further than that, on the basis that it is already known who the 3EC is. That is already confirmed. 

This clip is just showing that George basically said no, I never had it in my head back then that it was BR because he didn't quite exist fully yet, but I knew that the 3EC would be tied to the Targaryens.

So there was no dispute between the two that BR is actually the 3EC. This is taken as already believed to be completely true. It simply shows that at that point in time way back in the day GRRM had not completely constructed BR's story yet but he knew the 3EC would be tied to the Targs.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You know In the video clip that Lil' Scribe left on page two of this thread. When you click on it and listen to it, it does actually clear it up.

When it says GRRM was asked "whether he always knew the 3EC was Bloodraven", this clearly shows a conversation has been had between them where it has been confirmed that the 3EC is actually Bloodraven doesn't it? There is no counter to say, well you know the 3EC is actually.... or could actually be....

This clip here takes it further than that, on the basis that it is already known who the 3EC is. That is already confirmed. 

This clip is just showing that George basically said no, I never had it in my head back then that it was BR because he didn't quite exist fully yet, but I knew that the 3EC would be tied to the Targaryens.

So there was no dispute between the two that BR is actually the 3EC. This is taken as already believed to be completely true. It simply shows that at that point in time way back in the day GRRM had not completely constructed BR's story yet but he knew the 3EC would be tied to the Targs.

And I Quote:

"Did he always know Blood Raven was the Three Eyed Crow.

He always knew HE was tied to the Targaryens"

again words matter and pronouns are tricky...

But unlike people keep saying this second hand account doesn't say BR=3eC, what it says is that BR is tied to the Targaryens, which I don't dispute...

But again I'm not really interested in debating an TV show interview account of an interview about the books... I see how this convinces people but it doesn't convince me.

There are so many great, and long posts here I want to get to answering.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And I Quote:

"Did he always know Blood Raven was the Three Eyed Crow.

He always knew HE was tied to the Targaryens"

again words matter and pronouns are tricky...

But unlike people keep saying this second hand account doesn't say BR=3eC, what it says is that BR is tied to the Targaryens, which I don't dispute...

But again I'm not really interested in debating an TV show interview account of an interview about the books... I see how this convinces people but it doesn't convince me.

There are so many great, and long posts here I want to get to answering.

Nope, listen to the video, you have it twisted I'm afraid. 

It says did he always know the 3EC was Bloodraven.

The three eyed crow part is first! So the "he" is in regards to the 3EC not BR like you say. 

"HE", (the 3EC) was always tied to the Targaryens. 

You get what I'm saying ye?

[Macgregor of the North]

 By the way @LiveFirstDieLater

I think you were being slightly rude there. 

You brushed off the first part of my post that explains that the video interview is a conversation based on the fact that they already agree the 3EC is Bloodraven, the interview is simply about if GRRM always knew if the 3EC was Bloodraven. Like was that a vision he had right from the start.

Then you go on to say your not interested in debating the interview? Why not? Because it correctly disagrees with your theory? I know that shit stings sometimes man, especially when you have put hours into that shit but that's life sometimes. Don't be in stubborn denial though, it's not cool, and slightly rude like I said. 

And you know them great long posts you have to reply to, they are very politely saying, like I did too remember, that although you lay it out brilliantly, and you do man, really cool. But they just don't agree.

So press play on the clip, free your mind of stubborn denial and just listen. The answer is there.

PS! Don't go by the text that accompanies the clip, actually play the clip and listen to his words.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 By the way @LiveFirstDieLater

I think you were being slightly rude there. 

You brushed off the first part of my post that explains that the video interview is a conversation based on the fact that they already agree the 3EC is Bloodraven, the interview is simply about if GRRM always knew if the 3EC was Bloodraven. Like was that a vision he had right from the start.

Then you go on to say your not interested in debating the interview? Why not? Because it correctly disagrees with your theory? I know that shit stings sometimes man, especially when you have put hours into that shit but that's life sometimes. Don't be in stubborn denial though, it's not cool, and slightly rude like I said. 

And you know them great long posts you have to reply to, they are very politely saying, like I did too remember, that although you lay it out brilliantly, and you do man, really cool. But they just don't agree.

So press play on the clip, free your mind of stubborn denial and just listen. The answer is there.

PS! Don't go by the text that accompanies the clip, actually play the clip and listen to his words.

Haha 

because I myself have looked GRRM in the eyes and asked the question... Is BR the 3eC... And I saw his crafty little smile and he answered with a similarly evasive answer...

the point is simple, debating second hand accounts of interviews is pointless... We don't know what GRRM said about it, words matter... If you have a video of the author saying it point blank, awesome I'll go away.... But every chance I've seen him have to squash this idea has been sidestepped 

I don't know how many times I have to ask people to stick to the text, I thought that was pretty clearly a guiding principle of the forum... It's not that I want to be rude but honestly why is it such a hard concept?

I've watched the clip, and I agree that George is playing the long game... Just not that BR is the 3eC

sorry if I hurt your or someone else's feelings but yes I was being dismissive

 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha 

because I myself have looked GRRM in the eyes and asked the question... Is BR the 3eC... And I saw his crafty little smile and he answered with a similarly evasive answer...

the point is simple, debating second hand accounts of interviews is pointless... We don't know what GRRM said about it, words matter... 

I don't know how many times I have to ask people to stick to the text, I thought that was pretty clearly a guiding principle of the forum... It's not that I want to be rude but honestly why is it such a hard concept?

I've watched the clip, and I agree that George is playing the long game... Just not that BR is the 3eC

sorry if I hurt your or someone else's feelings but yes I was being dismissive

 

Lol you have never hurt my feelings on here with your blunt ass attitude, I was just pointing out that you were being rude 

You still are but it's no big thing, carry on with your denial man, I was trying to help you. You have many posts to answer like you said, I'll leave you to them 

Ps, I firmly believe the only person with hurt feelings here is yourself so don't project that onto others, we all know it stings when hours of your work is shot down. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@LiveFirstDieLater

I know you might be attached to your theory (we all are after all) but when evidence is presented against the contrary from two semi-canon sources (both Ran's words of GRRM in the clip as well as the app which is GRRM-approved) it only hurts your credibility when you want to dismiss the author's words on his own text in favour of your theory. Most people are going to assign more weight to what the author says rather than your own speculation which is ultimately subjective. Not to mention it is pretty arrogant to dismiss the author's words on a subject and consider your own speculation supreme to that.

I'd say it's better you find a way for your theory to work around the fact that BR is the 3EC,but why does he possibly not know that he is?, rather than being dismissive of GRRM's words above. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@LiveFirstDieLater

I know you might be attached to your theory (we all are after all) but when evidence is presented against the contrary from two semi-canon sources (both Ran's words of GRRM in the clip as well as the app which is GRRM-approved) it only hurts your credibility when you want to dismiss the author's words on his own text in favour of your theory. Most people are going to assign more weight to what the author says rather than your own speculation which is ultimately subjective. Not to mention it is pretty arrogant to dismiss the author's words on a subject and consider your own speculation supreme to that.

I'd say it's better you find a way for your theory to work around the fact that BR is the 3EC,but why does he possibly not know that he is?, rather than being dismissive of GRRM's words above. 

If you show me GRRMs words I'll stop, I'll admit I was wrong, shit I've never said this was anything other than a theory...

but that isn't what I've been shown... The app confirms it the same way it confirms Jon is Ned's kid and Aegon is Rhaegar's... Because that is the common belief at this point in the series... Just like how Bran and co clearly believe BR is the 3eC...

I have heard GRRM speak, live, in person, his real words... But I haven't heard him confirm BR is the 3eC... Even when asked

Now for me that's a first hand experience, so yes I give it more credibility than a second hand interview... But the point is that for the sake of a rational discussion neither my memory or that of a second hand account of an interview are valid evidence...

All I ask is that we discuss the text rather than hearsay...

but it's really ok for you guys to dismiss the idea, it's cool... Not asking you to believe me, you don't need to applaud... but I would rather spend my time talking about the text than debating the merits of "semi-cannon" sources, so please just keep it to the books or go away

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

If you show me GRRMs words I'll stop, I'll admit I was wrong, shit I've never said this was anything other than a theory...

but that isn't what I've been shown... The app confirms it the same way it confirms Jon is Ned's kid and Aegon is Rhaegar's... Because that is the common belief at this point in the series... Just like how Bran and co clearly believe BR is the 3eC...

I have heard GRRM speak, live, in person, his real words... But I haven't heard him confirm BR is the 3eC...

Now for me that's a first hand experience, so yes I give it more credibility than a second hand interview... But the point is that for the sake of a rational discussion neither my memory or that of a second hand account of an interview are valid evidence...

All I ask is that we discuss the text rather than hearsay...

but it's really ok for you guys to dismiss the idea, it's cool... Not asking you to believe me, you don't need to applaud... but I would rather spend my time talking about the text than debating the merits of "semi-cannon" sources, so please just keep it to the books or go away

*shrug*

Seriously, it was well-intended advice. Speaking for myself, when I see a poster dismiss some semi-canon source just because it's inconvenient for their theory (usually it's a very similar argument that "it's a second hand source", "unreliable" and stuff) my opinion of their credibility drops, because it then starts seeming to me that instead of trying to find answers to the mysteries in the text, they're more interested in being right. Not to say you think like this, just giving a possibility as to how your argument may be perceived.

[LmL]

Doesn't this line settle it beyond dispute?

 

Quote

Leaf touched his hand. “The trees will teach you. The trees remember.” He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them. 

"Close your eyes,” said the three-eyed crow. “Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see.”

?

[Red Man Racey]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

Doesn't this line settle it beyond dispute?

 

?

The counter argument is that Bran believes BR to be the 3EC so since this written from his perspective it will include any unreliable narrator qualities associated with his personal belief that he is speaking to the 3EC.

I personally believe that BR is the 3EC, however. This quote, along with all the other available evidence, forces me to believe that BR and the 3EC are one and the same. @LiveFirstDieLater  you have certainly laid out an excellent theory. There are elements which caused a hint of doubt in my certainty, but looking at all the evidence, for and against, I just can't get on board with it.

[Scorpion92]

20 minutes ago, LmL said:

Doesn't this line settle it beyond dispute?

 

?

It is Bran's POV, and Bran believes BR is 3EC. "You know nothing Bran Stark!" Lol

I agree with OP, future Bran is 3EC, been telling that for two years already. Even as unreliable as the show is, they included one scene with a clue where Bran shoots arrows at 3EC, and Jojen tells him you can't kill it, because the raven is Bran himself.

I will contribute more, don't have time now.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

16 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I agree with OP, future Bran is 3EC, been telling that for two years already. Even as unreliable as the show is, they included one scene with a clue where Bran shoots arrows at 3EC, and Jojen tells him you can't kill it, because the raven is Bran himself.

The show is not the books.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

54 minutes ago, LmL said:

Doesn't this line settle it beyond dispute?

Leaf touched his hand. “The trees will teach you. The trees remember.” He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them. 

"Close your eyes,” said the three-eyed crow. “Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see.”

?

 

Yes it seems to clearly state that on first read... But, he's "in the dark"...

The darkness thickened and crept toward them. 

its always in the dark that Bran hears the three eyed crow... And...

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

We are told he's pretending... Clearly Bran and co believe at this point that BR is the 3eC... But that doesn't make it so.

It's just like JonCon calling Aegon: Aegon Targaryen isn't proof positive of his identity... I think many suspect he's the pisswater prince. 

The fact that it's always in the dark, and Bran literally "pretends" should set off all the suspicion bells...

Not to mention that Bran doesn't look out of the trees on the hill like he was told, he looks out of the tree in Winterfell instead...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The show is not the books.

True!

Let's stick to the books... Goes for both sides

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

36 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

It is Bran's POV, and Bran believes BR is 3EC. "You know nothing Bran Stark!" Lol

I agree with OP, future Bran is 3EC, been telling that for two years already. Even as unreliable as the show is, they included one scene with a clue where Bran shoots arrows at 3EC, and Jojen tells him you can't kill it, because the raven is Bran himself.

I will contribute more, don't have time now.

No show stuff please. Some of us haven't seen passed season 2 and don't want spoilers!!!!

Not to mention the irrelevance....

[Scorpion92]

51 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No show stuff please. Some of us haven't seen passed season 2 and don't want spoilers!!!!

Not to mention the irrelevance....

Apologies for spoiling, but I disagree about irrelevance.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Apologies for spoiling, but I disagree about irrelevance.

Huh? You're kidding, right? 

What happens in the show has no relevance whatsoever to what happens in the books or in this secton of the forums.